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Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be Jesus' disciple

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posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 01:30 PM
I have seen similar views expressed before about that verse. I personally don't think it is hyperbole. But I also think you have to have experienced hating your parents and siblings, and everybody, for extended periods of time, and been in that total darkness I wrote about, to understand.
edit on 33930Fri, 19 Sep 2014 13:33:26 -0500201426pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-19T13:33:26-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 01:34 PM
the Spirit clear's this matter up, no man can just as it is written-

Revelation 2 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 5 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Romans 2 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Galatians 3 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female

Matthew 18 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Ephesians3 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man
edit on 19-9-2014 by Rustami because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 01:59 PM
a reply to: Akragon

T'was just a thought... Mat 5:37

Issues against exaggeration…

Matthew 5:37 is a continuation of 5:33-36

“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37 NIV)

That is an admonition against giving oaths, it has nothing to do with exaggeration.

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 02:53 PM
a reply to: introspectionist
Lets read this in context, shall we?
Matthew 10:34-38

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

The meaning becomes clear when you read what is said in context.

edit on 9/19/2014 by Klassified because: format

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 03:03 PM

The word "hate" means set aside or even "love less", in a sense its about Spirit or World.

Key word is detachment. Which was what I had a feeling it was about. Not in hating or ignoring your family, but in choosing the perfect pearl, the inner treasures and working at overcoming the world's hold, material's hold over you, and letting go of ego and also programs here.

Gnosis. Metaphors. Parables. All means inner meanings and you to mine within for them.
edit on 19-9-2014 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 03:15 PM
Well, it is a good thing I do not want to be a disciple since I do not want to hate my relatives.

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 03:36 PM

originally posted by: rickymouse
This doesn't make sense. Jesus's mother and brother were following him around.

I don't know how this was interpreted in this gospel, it is not what Jesus was teaching other places.

I don't know why some people are obsessed with the tribulation? I mean any disaster can kill us. Our little world dies with us when we die. Others little worlds go on just fine. If there is a big disaster, as there have been in the past, some people will live and some will die. I try to be honest and good because I want to not because religion forces me to. I don't want to be remembered in the wrong way.

Nothing Jesus says is literal, though some is easy to see, 'love your neighbor as yourself', its inner meanings for much of it. It is gnosis.

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 03:47 PM
It is the parable of the sower that clairifies it for me. When he speaks of spreading seed he is speaking of children of GOD being amoung families and choosing to put GOD before family. It is a hard choice.

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 03:59 PM

originally posted by: rickymouse
Well, it is a good thing I do not want to be a disciple since I do not want to hate my relatives.
I don't think anyone wants to do what it takes. That's why the enlightened ones (Illuminati) are running this whole conspiracy. It's to force us to do what we would otherwise not do. Show us the truth straight up and we would all spit at it. All the fear and hate for the conspiracy is really the enlightened ones enlightening us.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matthew 7:6

Sayyidina Ali, the cousin and son in law of the Prophet, was one of those who received the most in depth knowledge; he once said to some of the other companions: “There are two categories of knowledge I received from the holy Prophet: one I reveal to you, and the other, were I to even intimate something of it, you would try to kill me.”
source: In The Mystic Footsteps of Saints by Shaykh Nazim Adil Al Haqqani
edit on 03930Fri, 19 Sep 2014 16:03:37 -0500201437pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-19T16:03:37-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 04:03 PM
a reply to: introspectionist Great point. I wonder what of the unspoken would end up in the skunk works forum if they had one back then?

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 04:03 PM
I don't know anything, but this is how I think it works, this is how I have been philosophizing lately:

Humanity can be divided into three categories, Muslims, Christians and Jews. Muslims are the youngest souls. They are still innocent, but also inexperienced.

Christians are the useful idiots, the ones that have fallen astray. However, this stage is necessary in the evolution for their own and everybody's development.

The Jews are the ones that were so far astray that they were in total darkness. And then they were shown, and in some cases still remain to be shown, the light. This is the same as a gnostic initiate. And to be in total darkness entails hating everybody.

And "the Ones" that don't play the 'religion™ game' get to move on with their evolution while the Jew™, Chris†ian™ and Muslim™ get to do a "do over" because they didn't "get it" the first time...


You haven't always been 'You' and You have been here since 'the beginning', pretty good chance You were already One or ALL of those 'religions™'... Which One are You "anti" this time? When You do Your 'do Over' pretty good chance You'll "choose" the One You are 'anti' now, You'll realize it when You are out of body, when You've dumped the 'ego'...

Love YourSelf. Be Nice To You.


posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 04:23 PM
a reply to: JimNasium

That's possible. However, when I said Muslim, Christian and Jew I didn't mean that as in how those words are used or understood commonly. They way I meant has nothing to do with what religion you have, what you label yourself. I don't know, but I think the current understanding of those words, or the common understanding, isn't necessarily the original meaning. Nor do I think that the labels were originally meant to be of such importance as they have come to have. I think it's interesting though and I've been wondering if perhaps the labels and the division was foreseen and intended, because it does seem to have played, and continues to play, an important role in itself. Besides, I don't think wars would exist if there was nothing whatsoever meaningful about it. One could argue that evolution itself would stagnate if it wasn't for war. I take no stand.
edit on 24930Fri, 19 Sep 2014 16:24:00 -0500201400pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-19T16:24:00-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 04:57 PM
a reply to: JimNasium

You're seeing everything here from a literal view point again. Now, don't know enough about Islam's mystics and gnostics, and imagine that fundamental fascist Islam would want to eliminate them. So the muslim one is more of a fascist dominating system than a religion to me. Some believe the Catholic Church instituted it, so it would overhaul and then come on strong by eliminating, the region that was filled with gnostic Christians and they were murdering and stamping out all the gnostics everywhere, because they knew their fundamental control religion was fake, and they were conducting a realm change, NWO, kill all those off who know anything. And they wanted this new militaristic force to sack Israel for them only it seemed to create a rather strong opponent instead. I happen to believe that myself.

But the Hebrew religion also suffers from the inner meaning or layers of inner understandings and the way the scriptures were meant to be deciphered by intellects and royal families and wise men, etc, to this control fundie way of doing it.

Right in the very first chapter of genesis, the story about Jacob and his dream about the realms, the ladder, he named the city he met God, pineal. Genesis, 32 30. That pretty much is a game changer and shows everything is inner spiritual meanings and gnosis. Also quite subjective at that. And like any good story teller, they use the society around them, even names of kings, to flesh out the allegorical tale.

In the Gnosis and Mystical understanding of Hebrew, the inner is quite different than the outer, and is Peace, Love, Tao, Buddhist or Egyptian really, Sumar, mysticism. It has inner gnosis, numerology, astrology, science, even some of the darker ways of maintaining power or keeping the progression of humans down. It really depends on what eye you see with, there are 2 roads in it. Duality.

In the gnosis, the message is identical pretty much s Christ's one. They match. I read somewhere that as Israel was being sacked and their history and religion would have been lost or at risk with the people fleeing throughout the nations, they created Christianity and took it to Rome to preserve the inner mystical hebrew. Now, I don't know exactly but its an inner journey. Christ is real, whether he was a real man, or a metaphor, because He is the Vine to our Branch, Higher Self or up the line on Higher Self's and Source, and the Word within or our inner Guidance. He is the cord that connects us to home while we journey in dangerous waters. The intercessor and Spirit of Peace and Love that is with us.

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 05:15 PM
a reply to: Unity_99

The city was named Peniel not Penial (like penial gland) and Peniel means "Face of God" in Hebrew which is why he named that place that. The Bible was not written in English and the word for the actual "Penial" gland does not sound the same way as it does in Hebrew.

I usually do not promote the old testament because of there is a being claiming to be god saying that his name is "jealousy" (Exodus 34:14) and that knee must bow for him and swear by his name (Isaiah 45:23), but if you can find a spiritual message some where in that then it is good that you still can find something positive in there, but for me, it is way too corrupted.

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 05:38 PM
a reply to: arpgme

Bottom line if you can not bow or say a pledge to GOD then you are not a believer. Sure we could debate the violence and other things without having all knowledge of the subjects because we do not know all the facts here and spiritual but in the end one will choose to pledge alliegence or to deny. Cherry picking points in history that fit with your current knowledge available to you will not work. I would hate to be standing on the sidelines yelling deciever when the man comes around. It has been done before.

posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 08:16 PM
a reply to: Unity_99

You do realize I was replying to the O.P. and it was the O.P. that compared the 3 Abrahamic religions™? My diatribe begins with "And the "Ones"

So My opinion is 'not welcome'?

That is fine with Me.. How would You like to play it? first come, first served?...

This is why it is only the Jew™ and Muslim™ that fights over the Temple Mount, the self described Chris†ians are fighting amongst themselves...

Remember the deal.. If You post in a thread, I won't. If I post in a thread You won't, even if You have to defend Your religion™ again...

To Repeat: Those are O.P.s words.. so He/She needs Your lecture.. Mine was "opinion"

posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 01:14 AM
a reply to: JimNasium

it was the O.P. that compared the 3 Abrahamic religions

I tried to explain that I was not comparing religions. The Quran talks about Muslims, Christians and Jews. Those who say they follow the religion Islam believe that all the prophets were Muslim and that both the Torah and the Gospels were sent down to them and are part of their religion. I do think that a big part of the division stems from understanding symbols literally. However this is such a big phenomenon that I think that it is probably intended and part of the plan. It seems that the more evolved countries of the world are getting their population mixed up into a "multicultural" mix that turns into sameness. Coincidence? Another interesting aspect of it is how feminists, i.e. useful idiots/"Christians" (socialist is another word), contribute to breaking down society and the family. Feminism leads to alienation and men becoming less manly. This might also be part of evolution. Also, war is so much more than the bombing of buildings and things like that. I think all of evolution is one big war. The war might end the day the evolution is complete, but then we'll probably have ascended physicality completely.

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."
source: Gospel of Thomas, verse 22

The more evolved a geographical area, the more crony capitalism, and the more atomized the people are:

In these countries you have the highest rate of asperger's, forever alones, depression etc. and people are more introvert and more hateful. The women are less womanly and the men less manly.

solitary confinement—which is essentially what we are talking about—is considered a punishment even inside a prison. Even when cooped up with homicidal maniacs and rapists, most people still prefer the company of others to spending any significant amount of time alone in a box. And yet, for thousands of years, contemplatives have claimed to find extraordinary depths of psychological well-being while spending vast stretches of time in total isolation.
Sam Harris

So the Jews, who are those who in the Quran "spread corruption in the land", are also "a light unto the nations". Two sides of the same coin. However I have written a fairly long discussion comparing Muslim and Jewish philosophy. Might post a thread with that some time if I feel like it. Would have to translate it first though.

I believe that antisemitism is a manifestation of fear, and fear is a manifestation of enlightenment. The people that hate Jews are being enlightened by Jews. In other words whenever Jews are hated it's a sign the Jews are doing their job. Something a great number of people who claim to be Jews seem to disagree with, possibly because they don't understand it. And possibly because they're low Jews.

Sam Harris is actually a rather good example of what I mean by words not being understood as they were originally meant to be understood, how people interpret symbols literally, how people don't see beyond face value, cannot manage much abstraction etc. He is labelled atheist. But to me he seems more to fit the meaning of the word gnostic. It's funny though how narrow-minded he can be sometimes despite his intelligence, quite paradoxical. Might be a whole other dimension of meaning to that in itself.
edit on 03930Sat, 20 Sep 2014 02:03:55 -0500201455pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-20T02:03:55-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 03:27 AM
a reply to: introspectionist

I have also written about gnosticism vs dogmatism, something I feel is very relevant. I think it's interesting how for example the dogma of Islam compares to the liberalism that we see among Jews and gnostics and which expanded greatly in the context of The Age of Enlightenment. In Islam you are not supposed to question much at all. The gnostic is so similar to the Jew that they might well be one and the same. I think I might write an essay on this because it interests me greatly. I have written some already. Might just translate that, or write something new.

"question everything", the motto of the gnostic, is very much opposed to Islam.

And it's interesting to see the attitude among Sunni Muslims toward other branches of Islam such as Shia and Sufi, that to me appear to be further up the upside down tree structure that is the human collective mind, discussed in perennial philosophy. I find that very interesting in relation to Saudi Arabia and Israel. And crony capitalism with it's increasing sameness/decreasing diversity. And how you have to sell out in order to rise up materially. Think of Jay Z and similar people. Same with politicians. They seem to always begin their career as ideologists and somewhere further down the road they are "corrupted" or sell out, which appears to be the other side of the coin of enlightenment. Same thing with all the people in the so-called truth movement actually. They begin their journey in fear and pointing fingers, fighting for a cause (anti establishment) and whatnot and a lot of times it is followed by people not voting in elections anymore etc.

Another thing I find very interesting is Karl Marx, socialism and communism. I found this recently:

The political scientists A. Besancon and L. Pellicani argue the intellectual roots of Russian Bolshevism are a structural repetition of the ancient Gnostic paradigm

Here's a book that appears to be interesting and that I plan to buy.

Here this interesting guy, labelled anti-semite by some, talking:

Right-wing Salman Khan talking about communism and mentioning "the vanguard party" and "a state of constant revolution", two concepts that appear to be highly relevant.

In case anyone is wondering if this is off topic, think about why there is so much hatred and fear towards the conspiracy. And I'd also be interested to know how many "conspiracy theorists" come from a background of a weak family or something similar.

According to Robert Sapolsky, very interesting guy, a person with "schizotypal disorder" is someone who "is very much into science fiction".

edit on 46930Sat, 20 Sep 2014 03:46:13 -0500201413pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-20T03:46:13-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 03:54 AM
a reply to: introspectionist

I have enjoyed reading your very thoughtful and fascinating words above. I believe Jesus was a gnistic and the early church fathers hijacked his teachings and rewrote them in order to get the emporer to basically give them a living and qualify their existence and of course power ov er the people.

However being of mixed religious blood and having spent years quietly reading though my backgrounds documents the public can access, everywhere you look teachings consist of contradictions. When you consider how man y scribes throughout the centuries are supposedly to have reproduced their copies without any alteration from the original in their possession, surely someone must have questioned teachings such as love your neighbour as opposed to hate your father and mother, or the passage is included but totally out of context to what was originallyh said. All the desert religions have these contradictions in their teaching

To be honest I had gone back to paganism simply because there is no question of duplicity or contradiction in the teaching "do as to others as you would be done by" and if it harms none - then do it -

Some people love the high church and the ministers from whatever persuasion dressing up in order to be noticed, but the modest pagan goes agout his business without recognition, worship is in a circle all equal of you chose to attend it. Even the Quakers had a better idea of reality, morality and honesty than any of the ones who traipse through the doors of their religion boxes, however grand.

What interests me and saddens me is the way the western church has its leader wearing a fish head hat. This comes from the tales originating from Sumer and Babylon etc about the teachers who came from the sea and returned there at night. But what is forgotten is that their teachings were linked to the position of the earth in the heavens and the influences of the planets and cosmos as a whole. None of this,apart from the fish head has come down through the church unattained or left out - in short its been nitpicked. Which is where I came into this discussion.

posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 05:22 AM
a reply to: Shiloh7

Thanks. As for

the early church fathers hijacked his teachings and rewrote them in order to get the emporer to basically give them a living and qualify their existence and of course power ov er the people.

I discussed this further in this thread. That is a subject that interests me a lot. I don't have any answers. But I do think that the power hierarchy possibly plays a role in the enlightenment of humanity and evolution. Something like feminism could be tied into this discussion, where the Muslim view that feminism is a tool of the elite to gain power might well be true. But there might also be another dimension to it, where, as I discussed above, populations affected by those policies produce introverted and alienated people. In that state of mind you are less likely as a man to become a strong father. But monks live in celibacy, not as CEOs or generals fighting wars, don't they? I have also been thinking about this in relation to "the rise and fall of civilizations" which appears to be relevant and the concept of "culture destroyers" which Hitler called the Jews. Which by the way makes me think of how frenetic the Muslims are about washing and how schizophrenia is often associated with neglect of hygiene. There is a link between autism and schizophrenia and the schizophrenic before his first "psychotic break" is very similar to an autistic. This is what Jews themselves say about "insanity":


Mental disease. Among the Jews the proportion of insane has been observed to be very large.

Some more stuff:

In this interview John Lash, who a bit paradoxically claims to be a gnostic, says Jews have a form a paranoid schizophrenia:

One guy who is speculated to have had autism/asperger's is George Orwell, and this was written about him online. Hating your parents anyone?

Eric Blair always saw himself as an outsider and an observer. His personal depression and misery are omnipresent in his work. In his essay, “Why I Write”, he points to a lifetime of unpopularity, insecurity, and longing for a father he never saw after the age of eight. From Eric Arthur Blair’s loneliness and despair bloomed the staggering depth, vision and truth of George Orwell.

It's also interesting that Adolf Hitler didn't like IQ-tests because he thought they measured "a Jewish type of intelligence".

By the way, I believe Nineteen Eighty-Four is an allegory about the spiritual initiation. The proles are the gentiles, Winston is the Jew/the gnostic initiate/the low Jew/new Jew and the inner party is the high Jews/the conspiracy.

Along the lines of the discussion about the Catholic Church and how exertion of power and enlightenment might be two sides of the same coin, I find it very interesting with the quite recent surfacing of how the CIA and others were involved in "the counter-culture" of the sixties and seventies and in the spreading of magic mushrooms. Jan Irvin has done some research on this. He claims that Terence McKenna was associated with the CIA. Interestingly, Joe Rogan and Jan Irvin are having a feud and Joe Rogan insinuated that Jan Irvin might have asperger's. Joe Rogan dismisses any notion of involvement of the CIA and similar entities in the business of magic mushrooms, while Jan Irvin is the opposite, i.e. paranoid. I've got nothing against paranoia though. My own position is actually to question whether the so common preconceived notion among "truthers" that the CIA and the elite etc. are only "evil", whatever that is, is something that needs to be questioned. And by the way, wasn't Satan the light bearer, Lucifer? Or was he?

I'm interested in how Walt Disney is claimed to have had ties to Nazism. And how it's said that technology and people from Nazi Germany moved over to America after the war. Some also claim Nazism never ended, it just morphed. Something I think might be true, and that might not be bad either. Perhaps Israel and the elite are pretty much Nazis and the opposition to Nazism is imposed on the useful idiots as a form of subversion. The people who spawned feminism might well be anything but feminists themselves, perhaps something which might be seen as Muslim, perhaps a Muslim Jew. Is that possible even?

I am currently philosophizing that "Christians" basically are people with high EQ, which is the same as politically correct or conformist, and "Jews" are basically people with low EQ, which is the same as being politically incorrect, non-conformist, questioning things (i.e. a gnostic), "mad", being immune to groupthink and hypnosis, among other things that go along with that... By the way, didn't I hear someone say the elite are a bunch of psychopaths...

In this interview, the following is said:

Zen Gardner: Oh, you don't like Jewish people. Jewish people aren't equal to us. Don't you know how tortured they were for so long? Well lady, you know what, if you knew why they were chased out of country by country maybe you'd have a different attitude. Why they were kicked out of every country they went into because they were trying to screw it.

Henrik: The analogy of the man that seeks different partners in life and his marriages keep breaking up. And he's like "that woman wasn't that great. She had some issues, psychological issues. And then something was wrong with the next one, physicality wise, or I wasn't attracted to her, whatever." It's like, marriage after marriage fails. After 20, 30, 40 wives, 50, 60, 100 wives, at what point are you gonna begin to question the man in the relationship and say maybe there's something there that's wrong. Maybe he has an issue. Maybe it's not all these women that have an issue.

Zen Gardner: Exactly. There's a famous story of a guy. It's probably a different scenario but, this guy drives into a little small town and he stops at the gas station. He's looking for a town to move to. He asked the attendant "What are the people like here like?" And the attendant says "Well, what were they like where you came from?" He says "Ah, they were all smarmy, stinky, ugly, stupid, you know, they were awful." And the guy says to him "You know, they're gonna be the same way here for you."

They are discussing the Jews and why they were thrown out of country after country. The analogies would apply equally as well to someone with asperger's.
edit on 57930Sat, 20 Sep 2014 05:57:37 -0500201437pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-20T05:57:37-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

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