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Was Jesus really who the Bible says he was OR

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posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 04:33 AM
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...in an alternative universe Christianity is Paulism

So I was thinking today I have not yet written an OP on ATS …but where to start. So after all the polemnics I have had with christians (more particurarly their heresy of Paulism) it dawned on me. My sig line:” Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime”

Some startling revelations always make me dubious of how Jesus was turned into a God by the Roman Emperor Constantine (Nicene Creed)
So I revisited the miracle of the feeding of the 5000.

(“Matthw 14:13-15 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.”)

Why were there only men in the 5000…(Mark 6:44) wasn't he preaching to women…was he a mysoginist like Paul (1 Cor 14:34) or the strict Jew who threw out the moneychangers in the Temple; Juxtapose this with the major Christian denominations today that have their own banks charging usury

This would go a long way to show that Jesus wasn’t here to start a new Cult (as the Romans later called Christian jews) but in fact was an Essene who kept apart from women.

And so to the miracle of the feeding of the 5000.

Why collect the leftovers so as not to waste, surely the miracle could be more accurate and not wasteful. If it was anything like the Manna of the OT (satiating) then guessing who would eat 2 or 3 pieces was a non-issue.
Why allow a crowd to gather to begin with if he was compassionate, why not tell his disciples in advance that there would be a great crowd and to go and get supplies before the dinner bell.
Why not teach them to fish for themselves.

One other scripture that hints as to Jesus not being what is generally thought of as preaching non violence is why would it take a cohort to arrest him? (John 18:12)

Jesus was not the founder of Christianity or had any wish to create a cult in his name. ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do" Was it to do with his death or the future church built around a blood sacrifice? Luke 23:34)

As an ex Christian I have revisited the bible time and time again; it still has too many irreconcilable contradictions. Can anyone enlighten me? (Yeah I know only god can lead me to the living water, its upto my heart what I do with it.- Doesn’t wash with me)
I have however tasted some of that magic fish and I have been satiated through other teachings such as Qabalah, Reincarnation.


Highly recommended:
All Roads Lead To Rome www.abovetopsecret.com...




posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 04:57 AM
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I'd suggest you take a scholarly approach. Start by discovering when the first accounts of the teachings of Jesus were put to parchment. When you've confirmed that those were forty years post-crucifixion ... and you come up with how they were an accurate reflection of his life and times ... let me know what it is you _really_ want to discuss.

Jesus had something to say. It was important. The words are found right there in The Bible. You don't need to be a Christian to benefit from them. I hope you'll pardon me for the last part of the above paragraph. I have no better way of making my point without rhetoric.

-Cheers



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 05:18 AM
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a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Christ was actually a gnostic which is clearly shown by the Nag Haqmmadi scrolls. Gnosticism was destroyed by the early church fathers who wanted power for themselves and they wrote the lords prayer and defined christianity as they wanted to sell it to the Emperor in order to get his stamp of authority on themselves and get them a comfy living - which it did.

christ must be turning in his grave at what those men did and all should read those scrolls who want religion in their lives, as I bet they would prefer the right part of religion as opposed to the political and greedy frocked men 's version.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 05:25 AM
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a reply to: Thurisaz




Probably not.

Probably not...what? Please tell me more



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 05:41 AM
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a reply to: Snarl




and you come up with how they were an accurate reflection of his life and times


Life and times?

from www.atheistfoundation.org.au...

"Jesus lived in a time and place that was a hotbed of political unrest, he had the right pedigree to be a zealot, he talked, lived and died like a zealot, so therefore he was a zealot. He was the leader of a group of tough talking Galilean militants, men who were angry that Romans were in charge of God’s holy land. He wanted to free his people from Roman rule and create a glorious Israel. The evidence for this is in the Bible.
The Gospel of Matthew claims Herod senior was seriously concerned the baby Jesus might one day be king. I am sure in reality Herod senior knew nothing of a baby Jesus, but the fact a Gospel author claims he did means the author wanted the reader to think Herod considered Jesus a threat.
Herod the great’s son, Herod Antipas, executed Jesus’ cousin, John the Baptist, because he was a political threat, and then he pursued Jesus around the Galilean countryside with the intention of killing him too. He was afraid of being usurped by a more legitimate king of the Jews.
One of Jesus' very own disciples, Simon (possibly his brother), is named twice as a zealot (Luke 6:15, Acts 1:13). Judas Iscariot was said to be a zealot. Simon Peter was known as "Bar-jona" (Mt. 16:17), a common name applied to Zealots. James, Jesus’ brother, and John shared the nickname "Boanerges" or in Hebrew "benei ra'ash" which meant "sons of thunder", which was another common Zealot reference. One way people judge a man is by the company he keeps.
Consider what Matthew has as Jesus’ attitude to violence…
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34 NJB). There is no record of Jesus picking up a sword in the Gospels, but I think he had big plans about doing so.
Consider Jesus’ attitude to those who had grown rich at the peasants’ expense;
“Yes, I tell you again, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 19:24 NJB)
The Romans sent a cohort of soldiers (500 men) to arrest him in the garden of Gethsemane, then executed him. Crucifixion was reserved for the worst criminals and zealots. The Romans only used that sort of manpower and that particular punishment when their authority was being challenged. Two other zealots were executed next to him."



from
www.livius.org...

Barchochebas, (Simon ben Kosiba), the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be lead away to cruel punishments, unless they should deny Jesus as the Christ and blaspheme.
[Justin, First apology 31.6]

The Jews were lead by a certain Bar Chochebas, which means Star.
[Ariston of Pella,
quoted by Eusebius, History of the Church 4.6.2]



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 05:49 AM
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a reply to: Snarl




I have no better way of making my point without rhetoric.


But is not rhetoric a better way of discourse than polemic?

The important thing about Jesus was that he was the true lineage of David, come to claim his throne on Earth. Thats why the Jews conspired with the Romans to kill him. The supernatural/ aka godmaking was an invention to re-impress the hegemony of Rome. Christianity is the Old Pagan Roman Empire in disguise and still very much in control



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 05:56 AM
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a reply to: Shiloh7




as I bet they would prefer the right part of religion as opposed to the political and greedy frocked men 's version.


History is written by the conquerors or in this case a composite religion of Mithraism/Zoroastrianism formulated by a dying Rome Empire. They succeeded beyound their wildest dreams



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 07:04 AM
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Christianity as we know it is a creation of Rome. Made for political purposes in the Council of Nicaea. Jesus was a gnostic (in the sense that He had an above everybody else knowledge).
If we are going to do what He did and live the way He did, then we just have to stop going to church. What He did was walking from town to town visiting the poor and the sick.
Don't get me wrong I still think that we need a place where to gather. As for Paul, He just got it wrong (but due to lack of a good teaching).



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 07:57 AM
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Let's be logical here. Whatever they write in the bible is very doubtful. Something is true, but many things are not. Watch Ancient Aliens and you will see what truly can be. How can they interpret his Jesus, miracles as totally wrong, what if he was alien, he could easily feed people with 1 fish and 1 bread. If he was allien he easy would take 1 of those and replicate to thousands.

Also, your sig: " Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

Is not true, here is true:
" Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you have empty ocean and extinct animals!!!"



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 08:03 AM
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Every character in the bible is a cosmological reference. The end. And it really is the most beautiful story that a human being could ever be taught.

Just look up. Be thankful that the sun exists. That Jupiter doesn't whipe our planet off the celestial map. That the electromagnetic field holds us in the most hospitable zone of solar system.


But just for fun try this too:

Jesus walks on water. Watch the sun rise and set over any body of water.
Jesus turns water into Wine. The sun evaporates the water - replenishes the vines in rainy season - growing the grapes which become wine.

If you have the time take all of Jesus's miracles - and where they occur on planet earth - draw a line connecting them



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 09:08 AM
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a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight
First off...

21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.

No. christ was not a mysognist. But he was a jew, in a patriarchal society. Jewish men didn't run around entertaining women, because it was improper. However, Jesus did break societal etiquette more than once concerning women. It's all there in the "gospels".


Why collect the leftovers so as not to waste, surely the miracle could be more accurate and not wasteful. If it was anything like the Manna of the OT (satiating) then guessing who would eat 2 or 3 pieces was a non-issue.
Why allow a crowd to gather to begin with if he was compassionate, why not tell his disciples in advance that there would be a great crowd and to go and get supplies before the dinner bell.

Why collect leftovers? Because it shows god is able to provide, above and beyond. It also left extra for Jesus and his disciples. Why allow a crowd? Why not tell his disciples in advance? Why not? And why did he need to tell them ahead of time? Here again. God is able.


One other scripture that hints as to Jesus not being what is generally thought of as preaching non violence is why would it take a cohort to arrest him? (John 18:12)

It didn't. It would seem they were right in bringing a cohort. Since Peter cut off an ear of one of them. Adding to that, they were afraid of Jesus.


Jesus was not the founder of Christianity or had any wish to create a cult in his name. ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do" Was it to do with his death or the future church built around a blood sacrifice? Luke 23:34)

The truth is, we don't know who or what Jesus was definitively. We do have a reasonable amount of evidence that he most likely existed, and was probably well known in the area. I doubt that he was an essene. He didn't quite fit the mold.

As an ex-xtian myself. I see the bible as a mix of history, mythology, metaphor, and gnosticism. It was not meant to be taken literally, but to be a guide into spiritual truths by way of fables, and sometimes actual events. Though it has come to be used as a tool for evil.
edit on 9/19/2014 by Klassified because: missing last line



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:12 AM
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Even with Paulinity a great many Christians have become religiously inspired so printed words might not help or hinder our search for truth. Perhaps the price of the pearl is the only thing that stands between us and God.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:26 AM
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a reply to: glend
Search for truth. That is the religion modern intelligent and wise humans should follow.

One truth is until we scientifically put together all the information we have from ancient men who lived in these times and critically analyze it with the only agenda being the truth, we will never know what Christ is or what he wanted.

This analysis needs to include all the stuff the Vatican and other entities hides from us and any and all new discoveries of ancient text.

Only then might we come closer to the truth. All modern canon is essentially a fabrication based loosely on past reality.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:01 AM
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a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight


Some startling revelations always make me dubious of how Jesus was turned into a God by the Roman Emperor Constantine (Nicene Creed)

Most claims like this (along with the "Jesus was a Gnostic" crowd, also in the thread,) are the result of a complete ignorance of history. Jesus wasn't "turned into a God" by Constantine or anyone else -- the Council of Nicaea was called by Constantine to resolve the issue of the nature of Christ. Christians from the beginning worshipped Christ as God and believed him to be such. At Nicaea, the Bishops of the church, not Constantine (who publicly said that he didn't care what was decided,) rejected the heresy of Arianism, the claim that Christ was a creation of God, not divine in himself.

That's what the historical record shows. Any claim otherwise is completely rooted in historical ignorance.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Turn the other cheek, share, have compassion, don't live a life of materialism, be humble, love the Father, don't be jealous of others, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal.

Aren't these virtues worth practicing? What is so zealot about them?

Are we living like this today in America? No. People say they are religious, but actions speak louder than words. Jesus acted EXACTLY as he spoke. He said what he did and did what he said.

I am sorry, I will listen to Jesus 10 times before I will listen to you. Even if he didn't exist, still a mode to live by. Wouldn't you agree?
edit on 19-9-2014 by bitsforbytes because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:24 AM
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a reply to: saadad




what if he was alien, he could easily feed people with 1 fish and 1 bread. If he was allien he easy would take 1 of those and replicate to thousands.


Hmm...so you replace one Jesus who supposedly had miracles attributed to him with an Alien who creates matter "easily" in your words. Where is this Alien you speak of. My perfect imaginary alien would give an inextinguishable ice cream supply to me everyday.

Belief in aliens that are advanced to us is as meaningless as belief in aliens being inferior to us. I have no data to make any judgement as to your claim.



Teach a man to fish and you have empty ocean and extinct animals!!!"


So you are a Misanthropist who subscribes to an ideal of scarcity?



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: Klassified




It also left extra for Jesus and his disciples


12 baskets were leftover, a bit much for disciples who were only supposed to to carry one coat and not worry about where there meals were coming from.



It didn't. It would seem they were right in bringing a cohort. Since Peter cut off an ear of one of them. Adding to that, they were afraid of Jesus.


Peter cut off an ear of the priests servant...not one of the Cohorts.



but to be a guide into spiritual truths by way of fables, and sometimes actual events. Though it has come to be used as a tool for evil.


Therein lies the dilemma, those in high places have used a fear of hell and a vengeful god for their own power.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:49 AM
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a reply to: bitsforbytes




He said what he did and did what he said. I am sorry, I will listen to Jesus 10 times before I will listen to you. Even if he didn't exist, still a mode to live by. Wouldn't you agree?


No...he came to claim his kingdom on earth as he was of the tribe of David. I am not asking you to listen to me...
By the way which book of the bible did Jesus write...oh thats right...you did say listen to him...not read

If he did not exist then there never would have been a convenient scapegoat for Romes Imperial rule to be resurrected in the form of Christian church



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: glend



Perhaps the price of the pearl is the only thing that stands between us and God.


"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it."
— Matthew 13:45-46, King James Version

Sure revelation comes in many flavours.

Heaven is this earth...heaven is within us. Hell is also this earth according to some.

What price heaven if the gateway is through a blood sacrifice and a priestly class who have their fingers in all things mammon, government, exegisis, salvation?

The Abrahamic religions worship Jehovah the Deimurge.

The kissing of Jesus feet are a pre christian Roman gesture; see en.wikipedia.org...



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