Scotland Vote No In Referendum – Selfish, Scared People, Well Done!

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: bigman88
Well congrats. My Trinidadian grandma thinks that everything good and proper came from England and the queen.

You may be should take more notice of your
Trinidadian grandma ... she will have lived through much
more than you have, and has worked out where she is
better off!

OR, or... maybe she has been living under a foreign system that has effectively indoctrinated her youth generation, and in her old age of 76, is not likely to deviate from a mind and thought pattern set in stone, and does not know anything else other than what she has been taught. Also, she, like many other people, will only assume, because of her thorough childhood indoctrination, that her country would not have developed it's own national system of infrastructure, law, education, media, etc. Many indigenous African tribes were in fact large, complex kingdoms with working, competent and effective trading, educational, social, adjudicatory, and food systems. The tribal warring was the same tribal warring going on in Europe. Who knows what would have became of these tribes if they were left alone to progress for themselves throughout the centuries.

But no, superior England knows best.

K. Whatever.

originally posted by: Gorman91
a reply to: bigman88

Mostly yes. Empires do not concern themselves with rights, and can do whatever they want. They're just spheres of collective influence. I don't concern myself with which people this empire or that empire gobbles up or spits out. I concern myself that what they do is at least good in the end. The British is a rather fine example. Started out no different than any other European colonizer, ended up being basically the first to get rid of slavery, reform labor laws, establish functional governments, and leave the colonies a better place. So I'm all for the Empire of Britain, because they've done better in basically every example, and in basically every example, nations that stay with Britain end up better than those that don't.

Hell, I honestly think America would be a much better place if it never left the crown.

What a pathetic post. If this isn't revisionist delusion I honestly don't know what is, and it has 5 stars, no doubt from some English folks with a rather comical sense of self-importance. The clear fact is that the British empire was an abomination, and it fostered the growth of unscrupulous, unbridled mercantilistic greed and basically set Western civilization on the path of decay, the truth of which is evident to anyone with half a brain who isn't completely indoctrinated.

You tried to wipe out the Gaels in Ireland and Scotland, you successful killed our language and culture, but this pales in comparison to what was done to many British subjects in other colonies. The Anglosphere as a whole is a cultural/moral monstrosity and will (hopefully) soon implode under the weight of it's own vacuousness (culturally, morally and otherwise). I will relish the day when this time comes. Hopefully there will be something left of Western civilization to save, but perhaps not.

The fact remains that the British empire was simply the greatest brigand, usurer, and shameless thief that the world has seen up until this point. It gave almost nothing to it's colonies, pumping them dry of riches and resources on a scale heretofore unknown in human history, whilst utilizing thinly veiled despotism to keep it's subjects in check. Some of the oldest civilizations in the world were conquered and mercilessly exploited, and 99% of that wealth ended up in London and into the hands of a small number of subhumans. Anyone that idealizes such a system is obviously either ill-informed, stupid, subhuman in their own right, or perhaps a mix of all three.

These American neo-loyalists like yourself are funny, to say the least. I've seen a few of you here and there. Unfortunately, your hilariously wild fantasies about the non-existent glory of the Anglosphere don't hold up to close scrutiny. I do my best to know and understand the methods of the English elite, and the way that they have historically managed to deceive the (largely disenfranchised, though they didn't know it) English peasant class/lower majority. I've seen countless historical examples of how they rile up and galvanize the English peasants into believing blatant propaganda and fighting wars and killing on behalf of this small, infinitely cunning mercantile elite. In my research I've basically found that the majority of the English population (descended from peasants) are some of the least intelligent people on earth. And this is clearly exhibited on many occasions, just look at the stars that were given to your post.

Oh Scotland, would that you had gotten the hell out when you had the chance (not that it would have even been allowed to happen in the first place).

originally posted by: bigman88


OR, or... maybe she has been living under a foreign system that has effectively indoctrinated her youth generation, and in her old age of 76, is not likely to deviate from a mind and thought pattern set in stone, and does not know anything else other than what she has been taught.

So glad your not my grand child .... being relegated to the rocking
chair with my thoughts and experiences counting for nothing,
because *you know best*
How PATRONISING of you to even think she is incapable of making a
rationalised decision, from living through, rather than being
taught.
"from a mind and thought pattern set in stone" REALLY???
She has probably changed her mind many times over the years and
has the life experience to have arrived at the decision she has.

Also, she, like many other people, will only assume, because of her thorough childhood indoctrination, that her country would not have developed it's own national system of infrastructure, law, education, media, etc. Many indigenous African tribes were in fact large, complex kingdoms with working, competent and effective trading, educational, social, adjudicatory, and food systems. The tribal warring was the same tribal warring going on in Europe.

Africa? Still reliant and dependant on the Industrialised west
and charity.....
* Water aid?
* Famine relief?
* Decease? ebola? malaria?
* Education? schools?

Who knows what would have become of these tribes if they were left alone to progress for themselves
throughout the centuries

NOTHING ... they would still have been in the same place.
Industrialisation is what has pushed progress for the human race.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: bigman88


OR, or... maybe she has been living under a foreign system that has effectively indoctrinated her youth generation, and in her old age of 76, is not likely to deviate from a mind and thought pattern set in stone, and does not know anything else other than what she has been taught.

So glad your not my grand child .... being relegated to the rocking
chair with my thoughts and experiences counting for nothing,
because *you know best*
How PATRONISING of you to even think she is incapable of making a
rationalised decision, from living through, rather than being
taught.
"from a mind and thought pattern set in stone" REALLY???
She has probably changed her mind many times over the years and
has the life experience to have arrived at the decision she has.

Also, she, like many other people, will only assume, because of her thorough childhood indoctrination, that her country would not have developed it's own national system of infrastructure, law, education, media, etc. Many indigenous African tribes were in fact large, complex kingdoms with working, competent and effective trading, educational, social, adjudicatory, and food systems. The tribal warring was the same tribal warring going on in Europe.

Africa? Still reliant and dependant on the Industrialised west
and charity.....
* Water aid?
* Famine relief?
* Decease? ebola? malaria?
* Education? schools?

Who knows what would have become of these tribes if they were left alone to progress for themselves
throughout the centuries

NOTHING ... they would still have been in the same place.
Industrialisation is what has pushed progress for the human race.

Yeah, and you would never have gotten your vaunted industrialization were it not for Scottish inventions and Irish labor. It can rightly be argued the the Industrial Revolution began in Scotland. Funny how English peasants forget that (at the behest and subtle nudging of their masters, of course).

originally posted by: Connell
Yeah, and you would never have gotten your vaunted industrialization were it not for Scottish inventions and Irish labor. It can rightly be argued the the Industrial Revolution began in Scotland. Funny how English peasants forget that (at the behest and subtle nudging of their masters, of course).

The Industrial Revolution did not arguably begin in Scotland as it definitely began in England. To think otherwise is to make up history.

Spinning mules from the textile mills in places like Lancashire (England) were used to spark industrialisation in Scotland. Irish labour has always been used, e.g. navvies who dug canals and railways across the whole UK i.e. including Scotland, but they were a portion of the workforce. However, Irish labour was not a significant factor in textiles, mining, metallurgy and other industries.

Obviously, amongst the myriad inventions in the industrialisation of the world there are Scots, as well as every other nationality. The Industrial Revolution which began with textiles was not dependent on Scottish inventors.

Regards

a reply to: Connell
You seem to have a problem with English 'peasants' especially. Do you really forget that a large part of the invading British empire forces were Welsh and Scottish soldiers? Or are Welsh and Scottish 'peasants' somehow different to their English counterparts in your imaginations?

Oh, and sorry to burst your bubble but there is plenty of blood on Irish hands with regard to the empire:
www.irishexaminer.com...

From 1700 to the end of the First World War, almost 2m Irish men died fighting for British kings and queens, according to a new RTÉ documentary.

When Queen Victoria visited Ireland in 1900, almost 40% of the British army was made up of Irish born recruits.

...plenty more sources if you dispute this, but I thought an Irish source would be more palatable to you with your apparent predjudices regarding anything English.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Connell
Yeah, and you would never have gotten your vaunted industrialization were it not for Scottish inventions and Irish labor. It can rightly be argued the the Industrial Revolution began in Scotland. Funny how English peasants forget that (at the behest and subtle nudging of their masters, of course).

The Industrial Revolution did not arguably begin in Scotland as it definitely began in England. To think otherwise is to make up history.

Spinning mules from the textile mills in places like Lancashire (England) were used to spark industrialisation in Scotland. Irish labour has always been used, e.g. navvies who dug canals and railways across the whole UK i.e. including Scotland, but they were a portion of the workforce. However, Irish labour was not a significant factor in textiles, mining, metallurgy and other industries.

Obviously, amongst the myriad inventions in the industrialisation of the world there are Scots, as well as every other nationality. The Industrial Revolution which began with textiles was not dependent on Scottish inventors.

Regards

It never would have been possible were it not for the type of steam engine that was invented by a Scot. Scotland contributed more to early industrialization than every European country besides England. Look up the lists of Scottish inventions compared to places like Spain and Poland, much larger countries with much shorter lists. You can minimize it all you want, but it's very typical of English peasants to do so.

Anyway, won't even bother to answer the pathetic Welsh Uncle Tom. Got no patience for his kind, just another servile lackey, nothing more.

originally posted by: Connell
Anyway, won't even bother to answer the pathetic Welsh Uncle Tom. Got no patience for his kind, just another servile lackey, nothing more.

My my you are such a delightful chap aren't you. I guess you turned it personal because you have nothing to counter my points.
Are you sure you don't want to discuss the blood on Irish hands during the empire days? 40% of the British army being Irishmen in 1900? Nothing to say about your countrymen who chose to fight for the empire?
Irish 'peasants' fighting for the crown in their tens of thousands, lol, doesn't fit with your predjudices does it.


*Edit*
Oh, and how is that £3.2Billion loan going on that the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish 'peasants' provided through the UK government when your economy was collapsing in 2010? Gonna blame the English for that as well?

originally posted by: Connell
It never would have been possible were it not for the type of steam engine that was invented by a Scot.

I imagine you are talking about James Watt. Luckily Scotland was part of Great Britain and he was born into a world of rapid discovery and invention so had the opportunities afforded to him as citizen in a share enterprise, known as Great Britain. Watt based his work on an Englishman called Thomas Newcomen, the inventor of the Newcomen steam engine. Newcomen’s invention was based on some Frenchman’s theories, if I recall. It’s amazing how inventors invent and re-invent to improve and evolve.

You can minimize it all you want, but it's very typical of English peasants to do so.

You are new to ATS having only joined a few days ago. A word of advice is not to go around calling people peasants. All you will do is antagonise and people won’t take you seriously. Being courteous and polite is a nice place to be on ATS and in real life.

Regards

originally posted by: Connell
All it shows it that the effeminate English prefer to get real men to do their fighting for them.

I am pleased that you now acknowledge the blood on Irish hands in fighting for the crown and empire. It was of course impossible for you to deny it. I imagine it causes you much distress now you realise your own countrymen helped screw the colonies over, just as guilty as the English, Scottish & Welsh.

That's pretty much the story of England, they are portrayed as evil and effeminate in American movies for good reason.

Oh deary me, such silly stereotypes. This site is for reasoned debate, had you not noticed?

I know some good Welshman but you are obviously just one of the slaves.

Lol, you really are making yourself look silly now.

You shouldn't call yourself Welsh, it's insulting.

And you appear to be a bitter little Irishman, but it troubles me not. In fact I find your emotion rather amusing.
...and when is your poor nation gonna pay the English, Scottish, Welsh and N.Irish taxpayers that £3.2Billion back? Your hatred for the English is rather strange...bite the hand that feeds you much? Lol.

It's not like we had much choice being tethered to you villains. We were never given much choice, and the boys that fought likely did so to escape the hell that the English had created for them in their native land.

You are just a small Welshman in my eyes, not really even worth being quoted. Your nation of course was the first to succumb to the English, and by now it's pretty much in your blood to be servile. No matter.

Ireland has a cuckold government, if me and the lads I know had it our way, we would have our island floated further west into the Atlantic, or maybe to the south and closer to superior, non-genocidal European countries like France and Spain.

a reply to: Connell

See you still haven't replied to this post yet, www.abovetopsecret.com...

Can't say I'm not surprised to see you spreading your hate filled bigoted bollocks in yet another thread.

I really do feel sorry for you, consumed by so much misguided hatred.

a reply to: Connell
OK, so now you say that the tens of thousands of Irish soldiers who slaughtered natives in the empire were all forced to do it by their English overlords?! Your countryfolk chose to fight for the crown, same as the English, Scottish, and Welsh. Get over yourself and stop being the classic bitter Irish victim.
Justify it all you like regarding the 'hell' the English created in Ireland, but like it or not, Irish 'peasants' chose to kill natives because they didn't like their life on the emerald isle.

And are you really going back to 1282 and the fall of Wales? Really? Again, get over it, this is the 21st century.
Oh, and you need to check your history if you think the Spanish and French didn't enjoy a bit of slaughter themselves back in the day, but it doesn't fall in line with your bitter predjudices so I'm sure you wouldn't accept it.
Grow up man, stop being the victim, and perhaps start debating with reason instead of childlike emotion.

originally posted by: Connell
non-genocidal European countries like France and Spain.

Hahahah - er, what?

I suggest you look up the histories of the French and Spanish Empires before continuing your nonsensical postings....

a reply to: Connell

Do you not see the irony in an Irishman talking about how the English 'peasants' have been manipulated considering the tactics of terrorist organisations like IRA / INLA / UDA / UFF / UVF?

Yet again, you seem to have hijacked a thread just to spread your hatred and bigotry.

a reply to: Connell

It can rightly be argued the the Industrial Revolution began in Scotland. Funny how English peasants forget that (at the behest and subtle nudging of their masters, of course).

Hardly, it came up repeatedly during discussions around the referendum - usually by those trying to show how Scotland has benefitted from the Union and how Scots took a leading role in expanding The Empire.

Thanks for reminding everyone of that.

The Spanish and the French are culturally superior to the English, I already explained why in my post detailing British complicity in the decline of Western civilization. Nothing more needs to be said.

Also, you should note that in the former Spanish colonies, the indigenous Americans still make up a huge proportion of the population. Not so in the Anglo colonies, as the Anglos basically managed to wipe North American natives out of existence. Such superior people, I must say....

a reply to: Connell

Ireland has a cuckold government, if me and the lads I know had it our way,...

Sorry, I literally just pissed my pants laughing at you....for pity's sake, GROW UP and join the real world like the rest of us.

......we would have our island floated further west into the Atlantic,.....

As would some people I know....only then they would sink it - however,.....the vast majority of us are just ordinary sorts of guys who just want to get on living our lives the best we can regardless of race, creed or nationality.

....... or maybe to the south and closer to superior, non-genocidal European countries like France and Spain.

Seriously?
Are you honestly that ignorant of world history?

Spain has been responsible for far more killings in the name of Colonialism and spreading their religion throughout the world than possibly any other nation in the world, ever.
And the French have been guilty of some of the most brutal and horrific atrocities ever in their colonies.

The reality is that ANYONE who has ever had any sort of empire has been guilty of brutally suppressing subjugated nations.
Look at the Mongols.
The Aztecs and Mayans.
The Assyrians.
The Persians.

The list is depressingly long.

Try and learn how many people those Empire's killed.

That's simply the way it was back then.
But that doesn't mean that I feel any sort of guilt over it or that I in any way support any sort of neo-colonialism - hopefully we have moved on and progressed from that.

originally posted by: Connell
the Anglos basically managed to wipe North American natives out of existence

Plenty of blood on Irish hands from the colonisation of N.America:

irishamericancivilwar.com...-and-wounded-knee/

Little work is being carried out in Ireland on the hundreds of thousands of Irishmen who served in the U.S. military during the nineteenth century. Outside of the American Civil War many of these men were engaged in fighting either Mexico or Native Americans.

Particularly in the case of the latter, this brings with it an element of shame in modern Irish memory. Irish participation in wars against Native Americans does not sit well within a broader narrative of Irish people struggling against oppression.

I can provide academic sources if you prefer, I just thought this would be a nice easy read for you.
Now are you going to stop bleating like a lost lamb on the hillside and accept that your countryfolk were no better than the average 'peasant' English, Scottish, and N.Irish. Truth hurts I know, but the sooner you deal with it the sooner you lose the misguided bitterness.