We don't need jobs, stop believing this lie

If we raised our own garden and had chickens and a couple of animals and cooked all our meals from scratch we could lower our working requirements to three days a week. If we didn't have to pay property taxes, insurances, or for health care we could work two days a week.

We still need to pay some income taxes though, how would the government supply the services for roads and their police forces to put criminals in jail. These cons and thieves desire to take what we work for.

a reply to: onequestion
Well, yes, we do need jobs. We need to feel useful and productive. We need to have something to do. I've been disabled for 10 years now. I have been a underground coal miner and a construction worker/welder and I miss that " got something done today" feeling. That sense of pride of having made something and seeing the results at the end of the day. I can't even begin to describe how mind numbingly Boring it is to be at home most of the time, even though I've done my best to stay busy and learn new things.
I'm a stay at home Dad to 2 teenagers.
I have helped remodel the house.
We now have a large rose garden, with more around the front of the house
We have a vegetable garden every year.
I taught myself wood carving.
I've learned to sew.
My yard is cared for like a golf course.
I've developed so many hobbies it's outrageous.
I even joined Facebook for God's sake !!
No, spirituality has it's place, but it can not take the place of feeling like you make a difference in this world.

originally posted by: rickymouse
If we raised our own garden and had chickens and a couple of animals and cooked all our meals from scratch we could lower our working requirements to three days a week. If we didn't have to pay property taxes, insurances, or for health care we could work two days a week.

We still need to pay some income taxes though, how would the government supply the services for roads and their police forces to put criminals in jail. These cons and thieves desire to take what we work for.

It is not the government who build the roads. They just decide Who's properties the road is going to be on. It is supposed to be the lowest bidder who gets the job. But usually it is a Close friend of a government lobbyist.

A government is a society planner, they make all the Calls no matter what it is. We are the government Ants who do what they demand.

Do we really need them? No. Because in the end it is WE who do all the work. We dont need a government system to run Things.

The pproblem is that People are groomed through education to have faith in their government, and the government encourage you to vote so that they can keep their job.

a reply to: spy66

But would you pay to have the road paved to town from your house? What about fixing the streets to the store or servicing the sewer and water lines. It could be done on a community level but these things are costly.

I really don't want to go back to two rut roads and no running water because nobody is organizing these things. Sure, businesses could provide these services, but they need to get paid.

a reply to: onequestion

I would like for you to explain your stans in a manner which even I could understand.

Of course you may be intending for the government to supply the food, clothing , and shelter which most people seem to enjoy having.

In this case we would not need jobs, as we currently know them, but then neither could we be a consumer society on the same scale as now.

I do not believe this would be an acceptable trade off for the merchants who depend upon the rest of us for their incomes.

originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: swanne

No job no money. No money no shelter/food. No shelter/food -> death.

I am sure all these wild animals out there would agree with you. Surely does their food and shelter depend on the money they make, right? Last time I saw an elk, it had this purse around its neck.

originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: spy66

But would you pay to have the road paved to town from your house? What about fixing the streets to the store or servicing the sewer and water lines. It could be done on a community level but these things are costly.

I really don't want to go back to two rut roads and no running water because nobody is organizing these things. Sure, businesses could provide these services, but they need to get paid.

Its not like the road is free of charge to the public just because we have a government.

Personally i think it would be a lot better for the People to decide where roads should go. Because the government just confiscate proerty at their will at a minimum price, and force People to consent.

When it comes to building and maintaining the road it is the People who do this and pay for it by tax. And usually more tax than what it COSTs to build and maintain. Maybe it would be cheeper for the community who wants the road to pay for it them selves. Or even help out With the work.

a reply to: swanne
Sure, we can live like stone age folk, hunter gatherers, animal skin clothing, huts made of local materials etc, but is that what you want? I don't.

Without a token of exchange it has to be barter, who organises the barter?
How do producers pay for raw materials, how do suppliers pay for the produced goods, how do individuals pay suppliers of goods?
A system with a token of exchange is far easier than barter...what if I have no use for 100 cabbages in exchange for me plastering someones wall?

I say it again, it is complete dreamland without some token of exchange for goods and services, with an accepted organisation of such a system. Nobody in this thread (including the OP) has come out with a clearly defined solution for how any of this could actually work in practice, and until someone does I'll just consider it dreamland.

On a small community level this kind of 'free system' might work,
fluffy bunnies and all that.
On a larger scale however it would eventually result in anarchy.
It always does.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: swanne
Sure, we can live like stone age folk, hunter gatherers, animal skin clothing, huts made of local materials etc, but is that what you want? I don't.

Without a token of exchange it has to be barter, who organises the barter?
How do producers pay for raw materials, how do suppliers pay for the produced goods, how do individuals pay suppliers of goods?
A system with a token of exchange is far easier than barter...what if I have no use for 100 cabbages in exchange for me plastering someones wall?

I say it again, it is complete dreamland without some token of exchange for goods and services, with an accepted organisation of such a system. Nobody in this thread (including the OP) has come out with a clearly defined solution for how any of this could actually work in practice, and until someone does I'll just consider it dreamland.

If you think like this, you would need Your government.

a reply to: swanne
So you made your shelter with your bare hands?
So you grow your own food, completely?
So you are completely independent, like said elk?
So you live like an animal with an internet connection?

Last time I saw a deer, it had its notebook in its side pocket (all made from mud)

You´re avoiding my point: Who feeds you, if you dislike jobs (and thus I conclude you have none, because of the "when")

a reply to: spy66
I'll repeat:

Nobody in this thread (including the OP) has come out with a clearly defined solution for how any of this could actually work in practice, and until someone does I'll just consider it dreamland.

What is your proposal then? Or is a drive-by one-liner all you got?

a reply to: grainofsand

There are solutions, but obviously you did not read my post or ignored it... It still requires you to work, but only for a couple of days per week. These couple of days are required to produce food and keep the infrastructure running. The rest of the time you can use for personal interests, spiritual practice or whatever.

As the system stands, we have to work and it seems many are happy to do it. Problem is we have a false economy, and it is going to come crashing down sooner than later. You thought the great depression was bad, you just wait. Or we could actively be moving to a sustainable community based economy, with barter exchange as a part of that. Work doesn't feel as much like work when you see the fruits of your labor first hand. Just look at native americans, they had to hunt and make their clothes and medicine, but do you think they felt the same way that someone who works in a factory 50 hours a week does?

I think there is tremendous pride that comes with living more in tune with nature in a sustainable, ethical way. Sure there will still be work to do, but wouldn't it be nice to flip the script and work just two days a week and have five days off, now that's living! We have to ditch this debt(slave) based system, it works for the 1% not us.

Those using the words 'necessity' and 'no other alternative' are those who keep us in the current paradigm.

They do not see anything beyond what is in front of them and hold dreamers back from paving a better way for humanity.

I suspect this is by design though by whom/what I do not know. I don't have a job I was never feeling at my worst more than when I was in school or at my job. I know some of you will instantly judge me and call me lazy or perceive me as a problem or 'undesirable' but I actually enjoy working. Just not for the same reasons as most of you. I work for those I love and help those who I can. Working for a paycheck made me feel like I was being drained of anything I had that made me something valuable.

a reply to: TatTvamAsi
But in relation to the OP, it still requires that certain tasks are fulfilled for a community/nation to function - Also known as Jobs. People need a method or token of exchange to trade, right now it is money, it could be bartering cabbages or eggs of course, but without a recognised token of exchange it is difficult to see how those doing 'jobs' will be rewarded?

...and how do I pay for the tools I use in my self employed work right now, do I take a dozen eggs to the builders merchant for a bag of cement? How does that merchant pay the cement factory? How does the cement factory pay it's 2 or 3 day week workers?
The idea is dreamland about no jobs needed...unless someone can explain otherwise?

a reply to: onequestion

But wait, weren't you just telling us, the baby boomers to die or get out of the way so your generation could have our jobs? What changed your mind? Or do you not include the baby boomers in your new paradigm?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: OptimusCrime

If people stop seeing things as separate from themselves including the concepts of life and death then work will cease to exist.

Work will become life and humanity, the earth and people will want to help you achieve your goals because your goals are theirs.

Seeing things as whole with the dissolving of boundaries and extending our understanding of self to that of the whole.

I agree with your sentiments and I make sure that I work to live, not live to work. It helps if you have no kids, no female and no debts and don't care about luxury.

But let's stay realistic some work needs to be done and there's too many people that can't all lay back and expect stuff to work itself out.

We went wrong at the point we stopped being hunters/gatherers if you ask me.

edit, removed vid I couldn´t get to start at the right time.

a reply to: AntiDude

When you end up working harder/more to fulfill the wants of your 'female' as you put it and your kids. You're living to work.

The point is if we actually start giving a # about each other and caring about each other's individually then we'll help each other and it won't be cons deferred "work" because it'll be worth to reach out into the community.

Your perspective on "work" is what makes it selfish. A "job" is a means to an end. But to help your neighbor fix his house or to help your neighbor fix his aqua phonic garden or to help your neighbor fix his car or to fix his robot is not a job it's just being a decent human being.

Dreamy I know. But let's face it, we have the capacity to live like this we CHOOSE not to.