We don't need jobs, stop believing this lie

a reply to: bbracken677

And yet your sarcastic comment had a basis in truth.

Even in a self-sustaining lifestyle, everyone would have to work for the survival of all. If one person decided to be lazy, would they be kicked out? That wouldn't be a good thing, for this 'enlightened' community. Or would they be allowed to be lazy, and provided for by the rest. If someone else saw that person doing nothing and still getting everything needed, would that 2nd person become lazy. And so on...

So ... Kill something and survive, or be lazy and die.

a reply to: bbracken677
As bigoted as some may be and all the things they may say about governments inherently restricting people, no one can limit choice because no one can limit free will.

You may want a simplistic escape to the strife and madness in today's world, and that's okay. But some choose to look at the design of our society and don't fear to take it on to fix it for the betterment of everyone's family.

Historically, humans have formed societies for the mutual benefit of all the participants. A family is the same thing and the whole human race is too. Its a matter of allegiance and scope and in order to see it that way you have to understand that once you eliminate incentives for fear and aggression we can all be one larger "family"

Some might even say the tribal and simplistic response many of us humans choose to take in protecting ourselves from the nature of this finite world and capitalist society is a large part of the root of the problem as to why the society is stagnant in its transition to a sustainable society without exploitation of regions or groups of people.



As to the technology its a matter of will. Humans have the power to manifest and I'll tell you with less than half a percent of the U.S. budget being spent on NASA and nearly nothing being spent on technology and research for the general welfare of all humans its no wonder why we are still in a world dominated by fear and aggression.

If you want to perpetuate that world that makes you and a handful of others. For me, each and every individual has something about them that's unique, innocent and tragically beautiful and I disgust in seeing these beautiful aspects of ourselves clouded by constant fear and doubt.

I think that viewing culture as our enemy is a fool's errand. It is something that comes into manifestation regardless of what we do. The important part is that we consciously write our cultural story. Something that has not happened in a very long time, if ever.

I also wanted to echo the sentiment that it is rather sad that people can't understand that 'work' exists outside of a 'job.'

My own current plan is to release a barrage of new products open source, and the business will 'employ' anyone who makes a meaningful contribution to the various different projects. The pay will be doled out in accordance with how much real world value an individual brings to the table in a given time period. The entire profits of the company will be divided accordingly.

This allows the opportunity for any worker to earn more than the CEO, while placing the 'reward' of the work squarely where it SHOULD go and that is to the individuals who actually bring the product to life. This will also require a new framework to operate, and that is currently under design.

There is a lot more to what I am personally doing, but hopefully we can start a discussion on ideas rather than complaints and contrarianism.

I believe it is impossible to be 100% self-sustaining AND maintain our current lifestyle. Some manner of specialization, and subsequently, some manner of trade would be involved for the highest creature comforts to continue. There's just not enough time in one person's day to grow their own food, build their own structures, refine materials and minerals, craft tools and toys alike.

But, homesteading through a permaculture lense has started to show how a pretty good life can be had with a change in the definition of lifestyle. Closer connection to nature in the "plus" side and less complex consumer toys on the "negative" side. So the lazy person in this hypothetical living would get what the community is willing to subsidize. If he/she produces nothing of their own AND they live in a community that doesn't care to provide anything basic for them, the lack experienced by this person is really his/her fault as they could have easily grown their own food forest, hunted their own 4 legged or winged protein, built their own cob home and lived moderately well. The value of life for the individual can infinitely grow from this example based on how much specialization and trade is occurring within their community. But never is there a need to be barbaric or competitive to provide oneself with a living and if someone resorts to this type of activity then it is the responsibility of the community to "deal" with the problem. More specifically, the victim of this person's violence. Abundance is key here, and there are examples of near abundance to deter the more debased aspects of our race. Instances of people too lazy to build the simplest components of a self-sustaining life would probably be reduced to the psychotic among us. I'd rather defend my homestead in these few instances with a weapon then feel disempowered by the psychotic gene being expressed in our highest leaders out of touch from any local supervision.

originally posted by: BlubberyConspiracy
a reply to: bbracken677
As bigoted as some may be and all the things they may say about governments inherently restricting people, no one can limit choice because no one can limit free will.

You may want a simplistic escape to the strife and madness in today's world, and that's okay. But some choose to look at the design of our society and don't fear to take it on to fix it for the betterment of everyone's family.

Historically, humans have formed societies for the mutual benefit of all the participants. A family is the same thing and the whole human race is too. Its a matter of allegiance and scope and in order to see it that way you have to understand that once you eliminate incentives for fear and aggression we can all be one larger "family"

Some might even say the tribal and simplistic response many of us humans choose to take in protecting ourselves from the nature of this finite world and capitalist society is a large part of the root of the problem as to why the society is stagnant in its transition to a sustainable society without exploitation of regions or groups of people.



As to the technology its a matter of will. Humans have the power to manifest and I'll tell you with less than half a percent of the U.S. budget being spent on NASA and nearly nothing being spent on technology and research for the general welfare of all humans its no wonder why we are still in a world dominated by fear and aggression.

If you want to perpetuate that world that makes you and a handful of others. For me, each and every individual has something about them that's unique, innocent and tragically beautiful and I disgust in seeing these beautiful aspects of ourselves clouded by constant fear and doubt.

Repost.

You deserve an applaus for that one.

Any economy where the middle-man reaps higher reward than production should be rethought.

a reply to: SlickMcFavorite

This is not simply a belief. We import much more than we export. Simply put, we are hemorrhaging dollars.

This, inevitably, will lead to a shrinkage in the economy. We have lost something on the order of 15 Trillion (yes, trillion) dollars over the last 20-25 years.

Machiavelli had the right of it centuries ago: The nation that exports more than it imports gets richer, the nation that imports more than it exports gets poorer.

There is no such thing as a self-sufficient economy. Which is why our "service economy" cannot last without adding more manufacturing. Additionally it has to be manufacturing that competes overseas. Perhaps fracking, natural gas exports and energy independence will save us without having to rely on manufacturing, but that is yet to prove itself.

a reply to: 2ndthought

Right, and that is the way it is.

The sarcasm was reverting to a previous age, the reality is that even back then it was do or die. Now days it is do, or suffer poverty.

Does no good to rail against jobs...for now they are a fact of life. To hate work to that degree is to set yourself up for failure. How can anyone hate their job (should consider a change in professions) that much and yet still be able to get ahead? More than likely it will not happen. When someone hates their job that much, it becomes obvious to co-workers and supervisors at some point in time. Once that happens, chances for advancement or other opportunities disappear.

The key is finding a job that you can enjoy. If all jobs are horrible for you then... well... dayum. Might as well stay at home.

Back in the Stone Age days you had little choice in the matter if you wanted to survive. We know longer have to "work" sunrise to sunset. Even a century ago people worked horrible hours. Yet people still found time for family, for joy, for happiness.

These days we have so much free time, that I cannot help but feel we have become spoiled. I am 60 years old, semi-retired and only work 28 hours a week. I occasionally perform job interviews (I have a reputation as an excellent judge of character) and I can tell you that things have changed in the last 40 years regarding how people perceive and approach work. In general, the work ethic that existed yesteryear is far more scarce than ever. People expect to start at top dollar at a great position rather than being willing to work their way up the ladder. People get fed up with jobs and leave them more often. I cannot tell you how often I see resume's where people's work history looks like a hopscotch game. 6 months here, 4 months there and a year and 2 months are their longest stretch at the same company. I refuse to even consider those resume's for hiring.

Actually had a young guy, for an entry level position, tell me he wouldn't "sell his soul" for $10.50 an hour. He was just out of high school, had no work history, no education beyond high school. Seriously? LOL Good luck buddy! I am talking about a cushy office job, not hard labor LOL. Hired a girl on who was working 2 minimum wage jobs and was happy to get the position. I paid her 11 an hour simply cause I liked her spunk.

a reply to: ibanezbill07

Not sure I understand what you mean by middle man. Can you give me an example?

a reply to: bbracken677

Agreed, and the truth of this is fractal. Studying nature shows that a mature system reduces entropy by stacking beneficial correlating functions over time and space. The term "waste" becomes obsolete as there is some form of life that will enter this niche and consume this "product" within the system. A wise economy/community will be modeled after this. Our economy fails this test because the systems within it are also importing more then they export. Food production is the best example I can think of and we are losing because we are importing fuel to run an extremely inefficient system of monoculture and life is beating down the doors to invade the niches we have unwisely created inside of our food system. We lose topsoil over time to runoff and monolithic, unethical chemical companies exist to provide us with unhealthy responses to an army of insects happy to attack a buffet of corn, soy, wheat, whatever where no predator habitat has been created/sustained.

Same can probably be said of most of the systems that make up our nation/economy once observed through this perspective. So while fracking may help at the back end we still have all the problems of our culture that precede it.

It's frustrating because from my perspective all the problems of runaway government, endless war and really any complaint we can make about the dudes at the top is really just a reflection of our chosen lifestyle. This reminds me of the matrix when Morpheus explained to Neo that until humans are removed from the matrix, they should be perceived as a threat because they will die to defend the current system in their ignorance.

a reply to: bbracken677

There seem to be an over abundance of unnecessary pivot points , for goods, services in the western economy.

1. A trader who buys from producers and sells to retailers or consumers.

2. An intermediary; a go-between

3. (Commerce) an independent trader engaged in the distribution of goods from producer to consumer

4. an intermediary

These positions monopolize markets, with government backed statutes and laws to protect them.
This poses a particular setback to our economy (in my opinion) when the are no caps on the markup percentage.
There is no reason a consumer cannot trade directly with a producer and eliminate the markups.

a reply to: ibanezbill07

In all honesty, that is what I thought you meant. The way it is worded it seemed like it could have been a direct person (middleman) to person (manufacturing employee) type comparison.

I understand what you are saying, but in many cases the manufacturer, or farmer, does not have the ability, nor wants the responsibility, of shipping their product to 30,000 different locations/retail outlets/grocery stores. Therefore the middleman can be nothing more than a complex chain of warehouses and distribution points. Anyone involved in supply chain management will tell you there are risks...spoilage, damage etc when involved in distribution. It is not that the middleman is making a higher profit, cause he is not, it is that his job, so to speak, can be incredibly complex and subject to a significant number of state and federal regulations.

In case it hasnt already come up:

www.thevenusproject.com...

Ive also read his books. Very visionary.

a reply to: coop039

That's pretty cool.

While something like that should be a goal, one thing we will have to learn to deal with is a life without purpose. I fear that many would result to drug use .... rather than expanding our knowledge and learning most of us would explore more mundane pursuits.

a reply to: onequestion
Ok. So lets imagine this, logically.

Every system will eventually break down. This is (in a nutshell) thermodynamics.

Let us start at the every day necessities.
You need to eat, you need clean water, you need shelter.

You need to go hunt for food and forage because there are no farmers, unless you want to farm for yourself. Are you going to use a gun, a bow, or a spear? Soon enough, bullets will be obsolete because no one is manufacturing them. Even if technology has advanced to the point of complete automation of bullets, the system will still break down without maintenance.

So you make a bow. How do you make a bow and arrows? Do you know how? Do your neighbors know how? Not everyone does. So spears are used more than bows. This takes time to make. Now you have to track your food, while everyone else is doing the same every few days to feed their families. While the men do this, the women take care of the young and the older children forage for food. Again, everyone's family will function this way.

Clean water. There is no more water due to plumbing failure. Most water lines after a while fail because every system will begin to break down. So either pumps go bad or pipes break and you have low pressure, or toxins leak into the lines and you have mass sickness from communities using the last remaining working lines.

You cannot repair these lines because the education system doesn't exist, and not everyone can know the technical aspects of plumbing (torque specs, psi ratings, etc.) This knowledge will fade after a few generations. Forget about the internet and electrical systems.

The internet will be one of the first things to break down, due to massive power failures, because no one replaces components that go bad, no one cleans up and repairs power lines after massive storms and ice. So this will be one of the first things to fail after we all stop working.

When servers begin to fail, when ISP's no longer exists because no one maintains them, the vast wealth of knowledge you tap into with the internet ceases to be. There are no IT's to fix errors.

Shelter. We can accommodate ourselves for the time being. We can withstand the elements. But fires spread rapidly due to no water pressure and no fire department because no one works. Communities can only do so much to stop fires. Buildings, neighborhoods, eventually burn down, flood, and wash away.

Now, living in a technological world that can completely maintain itself is still thousands if not tens of thousands of years away. Every system eventually breaks down, and without people maintaining these systems, they will cease to work.

How concerned are you about your spiritualism and higher self when your kids are starving, your neighboring towns are warring with you for resources, and mother nature is constantly putting you through a crucible?

Do you tell your kids they don't need to eat today because your time is better spent focusing on your spiritualism? What happens when the machines break down, and there is no one to fix it?

a reply to: bbracken677

I did take it as sarcasm, and it is a rather common sense of humor.

However it didn't add much to the subject or topic at hand. Which unfortunately seems to be the norm around here...

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: onequestion

How is technology going to look after people?
Nope we will always need jobs on the care environment.

The original poster has a bit of a point, but then he committed an 'american typo', and I lost any budding respect for him. Rats.

You obviously didn't understand what he was trying to say, though. You are thinking within the box, he was talking from an 'outside the box'-perspective.

The box is the problem. You want to serve the box with the box's own rules, without questioning the box.

Things 'need to be done' for a long time (it's hard to even imagine these half-animals ever reaching the end of level 1, let alone reach the stages where physical matter is not always needed all that much).

But that doesn't necessarily mean 'jobs'.

There's 'work', and there are 'jobs'. Money need not be involved.

Money should be just a boundary condition for meaningful activity, not the be-all-and-end-all of every activity. Not everything needs to be measured in coins, not everything needs to be tied to 'economy' or any kind of monetary or exchange or wealth-accumulating system, and not everyone needs to be made to selfishly only work for their own self (or immediate family).

Money was supposed to be just a transition phase from a primitive and hard era to a more luxurious, leisure-filled, creative and spiritual time. But we got stuck in an endless loop, or spiral, bringing us downwards every year - and 'they' like it that way, they want us to forget our true selves and why we even exist.

No one exists to make money.

Food is locked up, although Earth offers it to us for free. What is that? Why can't we eat for free, although that's the kind of system that Earth could and would gladly support (or if you don't like antropomorphizing a planet, then you can change this little detail to 'easily').

If things were arranged differently - and if everyone was encouraged to work for a gommon goal, and if work was fun, meaningful and short in time (an hour or few per day, a few days a week or less), or as long as you like it to be, we could all live like Bill Gates, and no one would have to starve - and yet, we really wouldn't have to work hard or long.

Robots could do A LOT of the work that's now done by humans (what a waste of spiritual beings!), and the kind of work that can't be done by robots, would always have lots of volunteers to do it, and arranging it properly, there wouldn't be 'careers' so much as there would be 'interlaced work-fun opportunities for all'. So someone might work at a task worthy of a human being, perhaps only once, and then work on some other, great task the next week. Another one would find it so much fun, they would work longer, but when they want to end it, there would always be someone else, who wants to try it or do it.

And I do realize that healthcare and all those other similar tasks require training and expertise, so there would of course be a certain kind of commitment - but remember that the whole 'education' system is also really inefficient and a lot of it is pointless or false information - by optimizing it, and also utilizing hypnotism in a scientific spirit (remember also the spirit-part), everyone could learn to be doctors and nurses and whatever else in a fraction of the time it requires now, and everyone would HAVE more time anyway!

The technology to make all this true exists already - we could relatively easily do it, technology-wise, right now. But so many things would have to change that these wretched half-animals have been brainwashed to believe are 'necessities', or learned to blindly depend on (completely forgetting the teachings of the Oiled One), that it would take some time to gradually move to such a system.

I think that besides the oligarchs and all the evil beings and entities that inhabit this accursed waterball (with some mud thrown in), the biggest problem to progress would be the same thing it always has; the stupidity of the masses.

They would ruin it soon anyway, and the deceitful evil entities would soon be back in control, and corrupt the system again.

The core problem thus is the people themselves. They deserve this kind of a system - it's a 'world-Karma' for the masses..

With GOOD people, almost _ANY_ kind of system would work, and flourish for the benefit of all, no problem. Communism, bring it on. Capitalism, let's do it! Republic, I can't wait! Heck, even democracy could work..

With THESE 'people', I don't know if there is a system that wouldn't get corrupted or transmogrified into something resembling the horror that we now live trapped within.

I know where you come from, original poster, so I am surprised to see that at least some people see the light from a non-commercial, non-monetary point of view .. money is not a necessity naturally, only artificially. It has been MADE a necessity - you can't do almost anything anymore without at least some amount of money, but it didn't use to be like that, and it's not always like that. On other planets, it's definitely not like that at all.

Have you ever thought that everything that is done in the world, is done without the money helping?

I mean, the bills in your wallet or pocket do not come to your aid when you lift a heavy object or design a new circuit. They don't move your mouse when you save the file that will list the guidelines for a new procedure to build factory motors. They don't do ANYTHING. They just sit there.

If all the bills and all money in any form whatsoever, suddenly disappeared, you could work for hours, without even noticing - the work could thus still be done without money.

All this work could be done WITHOUT the bills flowing back and forth (I mean, you give them to a grocer, who then gives them to a bank, where you withdraw the same bills again, and then you give them back to the grocer, who gives them to a bank, and so on).

It's pretty crazy, if you look at it really. The same bill can go in complete circles, achieving nothing, and the humans, whose hands busily and greedily handle it, keep putting it in the same hands, back and forth. You might just as well save the trouble and keep the bill in your pocket, because that's where it will soon be anyway, even if you pay with it.

Of course in actual reality, it's not very likely that the same exact bill would return to the same individual over and over again, but basically, this IS what happens. Couldn't ALL this be done WITHOUT passing the bill back and forth? Couldn't all this work and food-moving be done without some artificial, human-created piece of paper (or worse, some plastic card with a microchip on hit arranging electro-magnetic polarities!) being tossed back and forth?

It's like cooking and every time you use another ingredient, you'd have to toss a tennis ball to someone, who would then toss you a football, when you move on to the next ingredient, and then you'd have to toss that football to someone else, before going to the toilet, and .. it's just .. insane.

It seems so redundant to me.. if everything that people do right now, would be just 'done', without the bills going back and forth, the same things would still keep happening, but now we wouldn't have the hassle of 'money' imprisoning us.

It's a simplistic thought, but think about it.. why do we need the paper/metal/plastic to swing between every action we take, and couldn't everything work JUST THE SAME without it happening all the time?

I guess it's a simple thought, difficult to explain. But those that have ears, let them hear.. (or eyes, let them see, or whatever - not everyone is going to put this through a speech synth, I suppose)

Money is not necessary, but it has been artificially made into a worshipped deity, without which, people wouldn't even know how to live.

And thus they think they need "jobs". What a lunatic thought!

a reply to: Shoujikina

It's a simplistic thought, but think about it.. why do we need the paper/metal/plastic to swing between every action we take, and couldn't everything work JUST THE SAME without it happening all the time?

No it wouldn´t. Money replaced bartering. Why would people give you stuff if you have nothing to barter with?

Money is not necessary, but it has been artificially made into a worshipped deity, without which, people wouldn't even know how to live. And thus they think they need "jobs". What a lunatic thought! edX

Money may not be necessary but work is, no matter how you cut it.

a reply to: Shoujikina

ROFL

Food is locked up...why can't we eat for free?

You can. You can grow your own food, or are you talking about eating and benefitting from other people's labor without contributing crap yourself, cause that is the gist I get from many of these posts.

Either that or some of you believe in food fairies who will feed you as you sit on your collective asses and do nothing.

a reply to: onequestion

Talking about idiots and morons, stop acting like one and I promise I won't argue, so try me!

You are a stupid freaking idiot. You know absolutely nothing of how the world works, and the human beings that live in it.

You thrive on conflict. You are a creature that feeds on darkness. You eat ignorance for nurishment. You have feelings of apathy, so you use evil deeds as pieces of entertainment. I have nothing but a frown for you. I have nothing but anger. I am not angry at you like you are angry with me, no you are angry with me because you have a capacity for hatred, a devil of darkness, I am just angry because you are so stupid - that is all, so come test me and you will see - what is stupid, and what is reality.