Are they really our heroes?

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posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 12:10 PM
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This is a philosophical argument, not an argument related to the ongoing war on terror. Being moved to BTS.




posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 12:10 PM
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, this was in response to someone who claimed that people who join the military put their own lives at stake to protect the country. I was simpy dispelling this misconception with other reasons for joining the army. I am by no means advocating that you, or anyone else who has joined the military at any point in time, are doing it for any of the other reasons I stated.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Aum means "I am"
Satya (truth) Dharma means your duty to choose righteouness. Krishna, said, that it is our duty to choose what is morally and spiritually right and fight that, that is not. I am only doing my duty as a human soul, and that is fighting against darkness and evil. If I have to fight single handely I will.


So you have the only morallity that is acceptable to uphold?


I have not put my viewpoints above anyone, nor do I profess too. All I am doing is expressing what I believe to be right and showing you the truth. I am doing what an peace loving human being should do. However, when mass murder of hundreds of thousands is justified or dismissed as a triavility or something to simply ignore, I evoke my satya dharma, that was imparted to Arjuna by Krishna in the Bhagvad Gita.


Not putting my viewpoints above, I am just showing you the truth.

That is the basics of your statement?

Right, a mass-murderer...such as Hussein? So now your against him? Truly a circular argument indeed.



We need more people like them today, because when people in their millions, actually begin to justify mass murders, there is obviously something wrong.


Which you have done...


Actually, I have not said all American mlitary are mindless, genocide-commiting villians, I am just saying most are.


I take umbrage with that. What is your term of "most"? 1 of 2? 1 of 5? I say most are not. If your religeon is about generalizing and villianizing people...then I would say you are an enlightened master of it.

Maybe something to read for you....

Justify Murder?

Is there such a thing?

I say there is. The world is not sanctuary where everything is love and flowers. No Shangri-La with fluffy bunnies and white clouds like pillows. This is the world, the real world - violent and uncertain. You cannot murder vermin.

People seek to to visit death and destruction on others, so is it wrong to rid the world of them? An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life. When a mad dog kills a child, you kill the dog. But when a man commits the blackest sin, why must we rationalize and sermonize? And when someone does something about it, what is heard?

"Did you have to kill them?"
"Was there a need for such violence?"

It is a question of balance. If a man throws food on the fire, who will have pity on him when he runs around shouting "I'm starving"? So it is with the killer who deals in violence and death, theft and pillage. They deserve no pity.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 12:33 PM
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I think I've had enough. If the truth is going to be illegally censored like this, if speaking against the justifcation of murder, is going to considered a rant, then I'm sorry, I am not going to waste my breath. Good luck, because when they return from Iraq to protect and liberate you, you will need it as much as a sheep does when being herded for slaughter.

[edit on 8-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I think I've had enough. If the truth is going to be illegally censored like this,


How have you been illegally censored? No one has stopped you from posting, but why let the truth stand in the way of martyrdom right? You are just whining because everyone doesn't believe you. Guess what? We have a right to an Opinion too. As much as it pains you not everyone is Anti American.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I think I've had enough. If the truth is going to be illegally censored like this, if speaking against the justifcation of murder, is going to considered a rant, then I'm sorry, I am not going to waste my breath. Good luck, because when they return from Iraq to protect and liberate you, you will need it as much as a sheep does when being herded for slaughter.

[edit on 8-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]


First, moving a thread is NOT illegal.


Second, sure you can take your ball and go home. Great Dharma once again.

I find it interesting how you can quote the beliefs of Aum, but yet hold that your view is the singular correct one. Then when challenged, you refer to others as the mindless sheep who don't see the "truth". THAT is a prime example of how you think your more enlightened that the rest of us. Personally, a bumper sticker comes to mind.

I just ran over your Dogma with my Karma.



[edit on 8-12-2004 by ZeddicusZulZorander]



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 01:34 PM
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Never ever take for granted the risks these people take. If these people did not train to defend us, the way of life we live would be greatly different.

Many have died in the past..when our freedom was truly at stake...and they were getting paid. They are still heroes. If it was not for them...you wouldn't be writing you complaints.

Respect them, support them, honor them.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 10:26 PM
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I disagree with you indigo. I'm not going to argue much because I don't have full-time access to a computer right now, and this has been said before using the same warped logic that you're using. Yes, our men are paid to protect. In a sense, it is a job, but they are also going above the call of duty as a citizen. You have to remember that this is a volunteer army. These people were never forced to join the services. Yes they're paid, but they're not paid very much considering the work they do. They've made a choice to defend their country, and that is honorable in my mind even if payment is part of it.

Majic,
Well said



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 11:03 AM
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First, moving a thread is NOT illegal.


Moving two threads at the same time, both that pertain to the forum guidelines: i.e. war on terrorism/war on Iraq, because they offer a different perspective, to two unrelated and relatively unpopular forums, shows that you have practiced fundamentalism. I am not going to complain/rant against it, even though that is the mandate of this particular sub-section, just find it very telling and amusing.


RANT: Let loose some steam and get it off your chest! This is the place to rant about anything that does not attack other members.


Stating the truth, or questioning blind faith in something, is hardly a rant. However, by allowing topics where "muslim terrorists" can be openly bashed, shows fundamentalism. So, an entire race of people can be called terrorists, and not be construed as a rant. Yet if I do the same for the US army, irrespective of the hard facts that corroborate it, it's considered a rant. As I said, it's fundamentalism.

I was quite shocked when that was done, and someone else U2Ud me expressing the same. I did not expect ATS, an alternative thought forum, to censor views so explicitly. I was under the impression before this incident, that ATS was a just and unbiassed forum, but yesterday changed that. I witnessed a microcosm of the ruling government.

I am not interested in complaining, because it serves nothing. So, with all due respect to you, I'd rather not pursue this discussion further, seeing as I know now that it is wrong for me to deny ignorance now.

As for the other topic "Nazi America":


Review issues related to social programs, the arts, and immigration.


Hello, if you wanted to move it anyway, you could have moved it to the relavant forum: US politics: General discussion of U.S. politics and policies. All this shows is the transparency of the blatant fundamentalism. And don't think I, or others who are reading, don't know. I have sussed out an entire government. Don't you think I can suss out an internet forum?

Anyway for anyone who tries to justify genocide or cold blooded murder, justying how these topics are in the appropriate forum, should be childs play.



I find it interesting how you can quote the beliefs of Aum, but yet hold that your view is the singular correct one. Then when challenged, you refer to others as the mindless sheep who don't see the "truth". THAT is a prime example of how you think your more enlightened that the rest of us. Personally, a bumper sticker comes to mind.


I already told you "Aum" means "I am" So what you essentially just said "I find it interesting how you can quote the beliefs of I am" makes no sense. "I am" is an empowering belief, because, it means that whatever I am, or who I am, is the truth. So I am the truth, this is me, this is how I am, take it or leave it.

Further, I have not called anyone who disagrees with me a sheep, a nazi, or an agent. I did however say that I am not going to be politically correct for sheeple. If you think I am calling you that, even though I not singled you or anyone else out for that matter, then there must be a part of you that knows it to be true. I am only a reflection of you are. How you read things, interpret things, is the part of you being reflected. Hows that for enlightemnent?

By the way is it okay for me to speak out against a moderator, a super-duper-moderator even, or will that be subject to censorship as well?

You are talking to someone who has a non BS approach to life. I am honest, confident in myself, have conviction in my beliefs, and have the courage to speak for what I believe in. More, I think for myself, and don't let others do it for me "our heroes" It does not matter how much you deny it, but if you are going to spout things like "the poor troops(our heroes" are only following order" to justify genocide, then you are painfully brainwashed beyond all belief. You might not accept it, but that is expected.

And I do not believe that murder or genocide is justifiable. Sue me. You would have heard the same from every enlightened master. I am not a master, just a student, who has common sense(the common in common sense is not all that common)

[edit on 9-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Herman
I disagree with you indigo. I'm not going to argue much because I don't have full-time access to a computer right now, and this has been said before using the same warped logic that you're using. Yes, our men are paid to protect. In a sense, it is a job, but they are also going above the call of duty as a citizen. You have to remember that this is a volunteer army. These people were never forced to join the services. Yes they're paid, but they're not paid very much considering the work they do. They've made a choice to defend their country, and that is honorable in my mind even if payment is part of it.


Herman, with this logic, you can say every army and terrorist organization in in the world is honourable. Honour is earned, my friend, not given away inside a cereal box.

A man who rapes a helpless person, kills an innocent child, breaks the bones of an eldery man, is not honourable. The Nazi's were not honourable. Do you agree?

[edit on 9-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Moving two threads at the same time, both that pertain to the forum guidelines: i.e. war on terrorism/war on Iraq, because they offer a different perspective, to two unrelated and relatively unpopular forums, shows that you have practiced fundamentalism.


Translated....

You don't agree with me so you are a poo-poo head




I am not going to complain/rant against it, even though that is the mandate of this particular sub-section, just find it very telling and amusing.



Translated....

I cant argue the point so I am gonna pout



Stating the truth, or questioning blind faith in something, is hardly a rant. However, by allowing topics where "Muslim terrorists" can be openly bashed, shows fundamentalism.


Translated....

Only someone as wise and enlightened as me can know the truth and once again you are a poo-poo head



So, an entire race of people can be called terrorists, and not be construed as a rant. Yet if I do the same for the US army, irrespective of the hard facts that corroborate it, it's considered a rant. As I said, it's fundamentalism.


Translated...

Even though everyone has gone through great pains to make clear that it is only a handful of murders they are bashing not all Muslims only a racist would complain about people beheading women and strapping bombs on 10 year olds. Ignore that and only think about the handful of soldiers who are breaking the rules.

And oh yeah, you are a poo-poo head




I was quite shocked when that was done, and someone else U2Ud me expressing the same. I did not expect ATS, an alternative thought forum, to censor views so explicitly. I was under the impression before this incident, that ATS was a just and unbiassed forum, but yesterday changed that. I witnessed a microcosm of the ruling government.


Translated....

I cant believe you can not see how smart and enlightened I am. I thought all would stand in awe of my magnificence and since you don't you must be a poo poo head. Even though I know I was not censored I will keep repeating it over and over so people will see what a martyr I am.




I am not interested in complaining, because it serves nothing. So, with all due respect to you, I'd rather not pursue this discussion further, seeing as I know now that it is wrong for me to deny ignorance now.


Translated....

I dont have a leg to stand on in this debate so you are a poo poo head




As for the other topic "Nazi America":



Translated......

My other enlightened thread



Hello, if you wanted to move it anyway, you could have moved it to the relavant forum: US politics: General discussion of U.S. politics and policies. All this shows is the transparency of the blatant fundamentalism. And don't think I, or others who are reading, don't know.



Translated

How dare you mods disagree with me. By me throwing a fit I hope to make others see what a poo poo head you are




Anyway for anyone who tries to justify genocide or cold blooded murder, justying how these topics are in the appropriate forum, should be childs play.


Translated....

I have try to tell you how targeting innocent women and aid workers is justified but you are not enlightened enough to understand, besides it doesnt fit very well in my Anti American rant



I already told you "Aum" means "I am" So what you essentially just said "I find it interesting how you can quote the beliefs of I am" makes no sense. "I am" is an empowering belief, because, it means that whatever I am, or who I am, is the truth. So I am the truth, this is me, this is how I am, take it or leave it.


Translated..

If you dont quit disagreeing with me I will sic the lizard people on you, Only some one as Smart and enlightened as me can understand the truth, you lesser moortals have NO right to question my truth



Further, I have not called anyone who disagrees with me a sheep, a nazi, or an agent. I did however say that I am not going to be politically correct for sheeple. If you think I am calling you that, even though I have singled you or anyone else out for that matter, then there must be a part of you that knows it to be true. I am only a reflection of you are. How you read things, interpret things, is the part of you being reflected. Hows that for enlightemnent?


Translated.....

I have not directly called anyone but you lesser mortals who are poo poo heads and can not understand how enlightened and wonderful I am sheep. If you disagree or have a different opinion that makes you a poo poo headed sheep




By the way is it okay for me to speak out against a moderator, or will that be subject to censorship as well?



Translated....

Again I have not been censered but if I repeat it oftin enough people will feal sorry for me, and by the way, Mods are poo poo heads




You are talking to someone who has a non BS approach to life. I am honest, confident in myself, have conviction in my beliefs, and have the courage to speak for what I believe in. More, I think for myself, and don't let others do it for me "our heroes" It does not matter how much you deny it, but if you are going to spout things like "the poor troops(our heroes" are only following order" to justify genocide, then you are painfully brainwashed,



Translated....

If you dont believe how great I am here let me tell you...Blah Blah Blah
And by the way you are a poo poo head




And I do not believe that murder or genocide is justifiable.


Translated.....

Unless of course its done by a Terrorist




You would have heard the same from every enlightened master. I am not a master, just a student, who has common sense(the common in common sense is not all that common)


Translated....

Any enlightened wonderful genuis like me would tell you that you are a poo poo head



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 12:07 PM
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You know, it really isn't fair that we can't vote mods for WATS. I think you would win in a landslide.


Damn, now I'm a poo poo head.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 12:52 PM
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Please, if that is the standard of intelligent and mature debate, then I don't want to see stupid and childish - you poo poo head



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 02:04 PM
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Will you two leave flinging poo to these guys???





posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 02:49 PM
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"You voted Amuck for the WTFATS award"

If only I could....



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 10:31 AM
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Quote: "Cpl. Zachary A. Kolda, 23, a senior majoring in international business at The University of Texas at Austin, was killed in Iraq this week.

Kolda died Wednesday as a result of enemy action in Al Anbar province, the U.S. Department of Defense said Thursday. He was assigned to the Marine Forces Reserves' 1st Battalion, 23rd Marine Regiment, 4th Marine Division in Houston."

Source: www.mccombs.utexas.edu...



posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 02:37 AM
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Actually, I have not said all American mlitary are mindless, genocide-commiting villians, I am just saying most are.


Hmm....... no.

By most I assume you are refering to a ratio of >= .51, I disagree.

My "training" is being supervised by numerous active Air Force officers. I can think of four off-hand that are not necessarily all heros, but they do have intelligence, integrity, honesty and dedication. I never truly believed that there were such good, down to earth people in the world outside of my family members(total truth)... I was truly surprised and have nothing but the utmost repect for them.

As for my current class, I would say that there are quite a few future "Captain Americas" and "Heros" that you talk about. But I think the program and field training will weed out most of them.

I definetly don't have all the answers, but I did learn that one of the best way to find out what is really going on is to talk to people who are involved (an obvious option that is often ignored, *cough* *cough*).

Zdrowie =)




[edit on 28-12-2004 by Tomek_the_Terrible]





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