While, I agree (to a certain extent) with some of the points in this thread,
I don't think that the idea of people being given a choice between jail and the military
is accurate. I recently witnessed a similar assertion refuted by my brother, (an ex-serviceman) who said that the military will not accept into any service anyone who has criminal charges or a sentence pending against them. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested.

Originally posted by Trent

Originally posted by syntaxer
When the government implements the draft and fellow American citizens are forced to fight to survive who overcome all odds while facing death shall then be considered "true heroes".

I disagree i think it's braver and thus more heroic to join willingly knowing full well you may be called apon by your country and asked to fight to defend it's way of life. I'm not a brave person and i have great respect for all who have died so i can sleep safely in my nice warm bed at night, i don't think i have the courage to do what our service men and women did and are still doing now. Like i said before, some soldiers do commit war crimes but the vast majority are brave honerable people. My grandfather joined the army before WW2 started and he did what he did in that war because he had to. He had no hatred for the Japanese he killed, when i was a very young boy i remember asking him if he killed anyone during the war. The look in his eyes and what he said is something i can even remember now, he just looked terribly sad and said "it was them or me" You can not even imagine what situations some of these soldiers face and i think most soldiers (who have grown up with moral values) do the best they possibly can in an impossible situation. I think calling them heroes is the least we can do to try to repay the dept that we all owe these people for protecting our way of life. You have to remember that they don't choose which wars they fight in, they join to protect their country and it's the government who decides how to do that.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Trent]

I couldnt agree with you any more,

Awarding vets and declaring war heroes is the least we can do to try and repay the debt that our nation owes to them. But unfortunantly this does not apply (my personal opinion) to the war "heroes" currently fighting in Iraq/Afgan. The neo-cons, which i call the "carlyle administration" with their extention through our nations media outlets labelled ALL military personal fighting abroad "heroes" while catagorizing the enemy "evil doers". This was done to help further their agenda of invading a country and installing puppet regimes. Classic propoganda and manipulation to gain fragile domestic civilian support when the rest of the world is crying foul.

fyi, I do agree with the pyramid theory which was mentioned by the person who posted this topic. The foundation of the pyramid (society) can alter the top portion of the structure (government), something we all saw during the unjust Vietnam war.

It's deja vu all over again. I've seen this before, and I want no part of it.

For those defaming the soldiers of the United States, I have two messages:

1) You can only do this in ignorance of what is really going on. I recommend changing that.

2) You, not me, will have to live with yourself after what you say here. I recommend remembering that your conscience will be far less forgiving to you in the coming years than I am being today.

You are not posting in a vacuum, and it is wise to remember that.




[edit on 12/7/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Originally posted by jsobecky
Where in Iraq are the Iraqi's being forced to "marked" with DNA and retina scans at the barrel of a gun?

Where have you been? Certainly not Fulluja?

You still have not answered my question. Where in Iraq are the Iraqi's being forced to being "marked" with DNA and retina scans at the barrel of a gun? You certainly are not referring to the security measures in effect in Fallujah, are you? I thought this was explained in several other posts. Go do some research.

BTW, residents of Fallujah, while being subjected to retina scans, are not being done so at gunpoint.

So once again, prove your allegations.

Not, unless Australians are born criminals. In the case of US forces however, convicted criminals are drafted into the military.

Earth to Indigo_Child: There is no draft. Secondly, what is the problem with using convicted criminals as soldiers? You make it sound sooo bad. What is wrong with it?

Did you know that some of the most successful security experts are former criminals, often employed by those who they ripped off?

Did you know that some of the best internet security experts are former hackers?

They are heores yes but they are also villians.
To the other side they are evil and grotesque and should be removed from the earth, on our side they are white angels of truth and mercy.

The propaganda works both ways the way to look at it is to see them as who they are, people.
They are average , ok some are more than average but they are still just people.
They could shoot hundreds of troops and get a medal but they wont feel good about it, they could bomb a house of civilians while killing an enemy leader but they would feel horrible.

Put yourself in their shoe's.
There you are in iraq with your M16/SA80 slung across your chest, your squad mates are next to you. Your tired, sore and miss your family/friends/spouse/husband/wife/WHATEVER! and you are talking to the local's when the enemy attacks you and kills the local and two of your section/squad. You know they will kill their own people and yours , you can see they in a building but the building is a school, what do you do?

Do the "right" thing and get down and wait for the enemy to leave the building? Allowing the enemy to reign fire down on you, your squad mates and the civies around you? Possibley killing every one and civies.

Do the "wrong" thing and open fire on the school therefore suppressing the enemy and stopping them from killing you,your squad mates and civies BUT fireing at them could hit school children and kill them.

The answer is sometimes doing the "right" thing is not the right thing to do....

Hold on there, I hear you say. "I am not supporting Bush," "I am not supporting the war" yet that is what you think, because in action, mind, body and heart, you are supporting "our heroes" who are supporting the administration of Bush.

I am revolted by this war, and the way it was planned. That said, I do not blame the troops, I worry about them. I think many had no idea what they were getting into. Nor do I think we've even begun to see how awful it could get.

I have not called them our "heroes" because I do not feel that they are saving the US from terrorism by volunteering to fight in this war. This war was not on terror. I call them our soldiers, troops, military, etc, and yes I do feel they are brave. I would not make the same choice they have made, but every one of them has a different reason, and until I hear them all, I won't point fingers.

I don't think the troops can be judged as a whole. That is a big mistake. Some are smart, some are dumb, some want to be there, some do not, etc, but I will view them as Americans, who for whatever reason each has, are in Iraq right now, and may not be coming back. This is tragic, and my best wishes are with them.

You can worry about people who joined, and hope they return safely, while being against the war and Bush. I am angry about how this admin is letting the kids go off and die (along with many innocent Iraqi people), and has yet to present a valid reason as to why its necessary.

quote: Ok, as much as I disapprove of the war and of president bush, I disagree with a lot of your points here.


Which illustrates that you are in agreement with what I have said. That you are supporting "our heroes" that are the ones carrying out the orders. You are the bottom layer of the pyramid. The outcome is the same.

Um no. With your pyramid logic, you could say that anyone who protests the war hates America. If it weren't for the volunteers in our military right now, there'd be a REAL draft, and you or I could potentially be there right now, so I've got nothing but respect for them. This doesn't mean I'm supporting the war. It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it. They don't choose to go to war. Our wonderful president does. They are merely pawns in the big game. Think about it.

It's not everyone in the military who are sadistic and rape kids, it just happens to be that a few bad apples managed to slaughter some 100,000 Iraqi's, abuse and molest prisoners in several prison camps holding hundreds of prisoners from Iraq, to Afghanistan, to Guatamano Bay.

What this really means, when I sift through the BS, that anything deplorable, sadistic, and evil, done by US forces, irrespective of their frequency and commonality, are the accountability of the people who commit them, and happen to get caught commiting them. Yet, anything deplorable, sadistic and evil done by any enemy, is the accountability of the race, country, demographic or organization to which they belong.

And their job is what? To rape little boys and girls? To turn citizens into a sex market for generals, sergants and soliders? To slaughter thousands of Iraqi's?

Yes, you're right. There are soldiers that do this. They should be punished. However you can't judge everyone based on a bunch of screwed up war criminals. Like I said above, if they weren't out there "slaughtering" Iraqis it would be me or you, or joe down the street. Actually it wouldn't be me, cuz I'd be leaving for canada. My point is,when our president declares war, we're going. Nomatter what... Somebody will be fighting. We don't have a say in the matter. They do the job that nobody wants to do, but has to be done. Is it my turn to laugh now?

I've said it already? You are not supporting the war, right? Yet you are supporting those who are carrying out the war? So what are you doing? Supporting the war. If you were paying attention, I said, that though you are a part of an organization and do not support it's agenda, by working for them, you are doing just what you oppose, supporting the agenda.

ohhhh. And If you said it, it must be gold right? That's like saying by throwing out your garbage for the garbage collector you are supporting pollution, because SOME organizations don't get rid of it properly. Anybody who owns a car is supporting global warming as well. These are things we have no control over. It's the large greedy corporations that are stuck in their ways. I am one of the most anti war people you'll ever meet. I believe Bush knew about 9/11 but didn't stop it because it gave him an excuse to start the never ending war on terror. I despise him. I despise the whole concept of war. I've written songs about it. If your logic is true then EVERYONE is indirectly supporting wrong doings, including you, whether you like to admit it or not.

Mate, you are indirectly supporting murder, rape, genocide, and when you cut out the hyprocisy, the duplicity and the BS, and face the reality of your role in this war, and accept it, I am going to respect you a tad more.

did you realize you are indirectly supporting slave child labor by using a computer to post here? I have no role in this war, besides protesting it. I do not send money to the military or anything of the sort. I just keep the people risking their lives in my mind, and give them the respect they desearve. Shame on me.



[edit on 8-12-2004 by Barcs]

How the people of US look upon their own fighting men is no buisiness of mine. But be aware of the duality of reality.

Indigo__Child have stumbeled very close to the consequences of one of the ruling principles of the powerpeople:

Popular Inaction is Support.

By creating their arguments and actions with this in mind they make it look like those who don't protest support their arguments and actions. And thereby create an illusion of popular support.

As an example: Those who do not actively protest the actions of the Bush junta is actively, by their inaction, supporting the same. In reality it is the sum of action that decides. What an individual think and feel is of no importance as long as he/she do not act accordingly. The reasons for the inaction is of no significance whatsoever to the fact that Inaction is Support. This is how it is designed.

As long as the American people is unaware of this principle they will continue to let loose evil like the Bush junta on the whole world. That is the consequence of their inaction. How you justify your inaction is of no practical consequence to those exposed to the practical result of this inaction.

This principle has been used by powerpeople from the dawn of time, and as long as it works they will still use it. The example above was used because it has some bearing on the discussion at hand.

I myself are in the real world a supporter of a regime i do not like. I view them as liars, scoundrels and heretics. But the reasons are of no practical consequence - my inaction is all it takes for me to support them.

Is this the way of Hindu Dharma of Aum?
To proclaim that one's thoughts are "above" everyone else and to belittle them as ignorants?

Not everyone would agree with your singular view of the American military. Have there been crimes committed? Yes. Does that make ALL those serving in the military worthy of your labels of judgement? No. In fact, I was not aware that Dharma allowed judgement of others to such a harsh degree.

I suppose you forget that their former ruler killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. I suppose you forget that he had prisons for children who were tortured and forced to watch their parents tortured to solicit "confessions" from them? Probably even forget that he bribed many countries with vast untapped oilfields to get sanctions lifted. Sanctions that were applied when he ruthlessly attacked a neighboring country to rape and pillage it.

I suppose you support those types of behavior then with your self-proclaimed "enlightenment". Hmmmm, dharma indeed.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
I suppose you forget that their former ruler killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. I suppose you forget that he had prisons for children who were tortured and forced to watch their parents tortured to solicit "confessions" from them? Probably even forget that he bribed many countries with vast untapped oilfields to get sanctions lifted. Sanctions that were applied when he ruthlessly attacked a neighboring country to rape and pillage it.

Come on ZZ you know the news only counts if it from Jahidunspun and anti american, before we got there they LOVED being raped and killed by their own countrymen Its only bad if those icky nasty americans do it

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
There are more reasons for joining the army than this naive "our heores"" outlook you have:

1. You're stupid
2. You're unemployed/homeless
3. You're suicidal
4. You're depressed
5. You're a criminal
6. You think it's cool
7. You're a nationalist/jingoist
8. You're family and friends are in the army

This is obviously posted by someone who is totally un-biased and honest. Someone who is enlightened and unjudgemental

[edit on 8-12-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
[1. You're stupid
2. You're unemployed/homeless
3. You're suicidal
4. You're depressed
5. You're a criminal
6. You think it's cool
7. You're a nationalist/jingoist
8. You're family and friends are in the army

Is this simply a misquided attempt at getting some points Really now, I feel sorry for you and your narrow view on this issue. Rest assured that your right to spew forth this asinine topic will be protected day in day out by the very HEROS that you decry.

I do not support Bush or the war.

But I shall always support my former commerades in the military, because I know what they are dealing with.

Muderous villians? maybe a small percentage.

But the military is but a tool of diplomacy. Various presidents come and go, but the military goes on. We shall always need a military, regardless.

One can support the troops without supporting the president. I opposed the war when it started. i still think its a mistake.

But its too late now. We are already there, and there is no turning back off the course that Dubya has sent us on. The only option left: support the troops so they can get the job done quicker so they can get home quicker, and next election, vote a president who is far less trigger happy and much more discretionary, that will think twice before unecessarily wasting the lifeblood of Americans children on another pointless war.

Now that we are mired in Iraq, I hope that we can finish up the job as quick as possible, because there really is no other choice but failure, and i dont want to see that.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
[1. You're stupid
2. You're unemployed/homeless
3. You're suicidal
4. You're depressed
5. You're a criminal
6. You think it's cool
7. You're a nationalist/jingoist
8. You're family and friends are in the army

Is this simply a misquided attempt at getting some points Really now, I feel sorry for you and your narrow view on this issue. Rest assured that your right to spew forth this asinine topic will be protected day in day out by the very HEROS that you decry.

Well said Fred, cant agree with you more after the reply i got earlier.
The more i read this post, the more it winds me up.
I feel like my son has been ridiculed or insulted for doing his job.

Here is the post. No doubt you have seen it before.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Originally posted by Bikereddie

How many people would honestly want to do their job?

How many people would choose prison over the army? That's how many.

To me, my son will always be a hero..........

I feel sorry for you that your son is involved in the genocide of the Iraqi people. However, that should not perturb you, because your son will always he a hero. To put some perspective on this, so will the freedom fighting sons of many Iraqis. I am sure in some countries, the so calld 19 that gave their life in the WTC attacks, are heroes too.

That's a good trade you know. If I ever want to be a known as a hero, all I do is go to war, lose a limb or two, and get a medal for my heroism. ~ rolling eyes indeed.

Bikereddie

Its easy for someone to hide behind a computer screen and talk you know what about someone else. Your son has my respect as do all the others that are doing a job they were ordered to do. They are a few sadists and criminals among them of course. There are over 150000 of them can ANYONE name a town of 150000 that has no crime? When you get that amount of people togather there will be bad apples in the bunch.

I know what its like to come home to people calling you all kinds of discusting names, and like many before me have stated I am against the war but I will stand behind my little brothers in arms

Originally posted by Bikereddie
Well said Fred, cant agree with you more after the reply i got earlier.
The more i read this post, the more it winds me up.
I feel like my son has been ridiculed or insulted for doing his job.

Yes, it is one of the most blatant points grab I have ever seen. Really now and the Nazi reference that was made Whats next Indigo? Are you going to spin us a yarn about how the U.S. has opressed pol Pot, or how about Kim of NK?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I feel sorry for you that your son is involved in the genocide of the Iraqi people. However, that should not perturb you, because your son will always he a hero.

Genocide? Really now, if it was genocide they were after the SUnni triangle would be a giant parking lot now. Really Indigo, the one person to feel sorry for is you. Deny Ignorance indeed

Is this the way of Hindu Dharma of Aum?
To proclaim that one's thoughts are "above" everyone else and to belittle them as ignorants?

Aum means "I am"
Satya (truth) Dharma means your duty to choose righteouness. Krishna, said, that it is our duty to choose what is morally and spiritually right and fight that, that is not. I am only doing my duty as a human soul, and that is fighting against darkness and evil. If I have to fight single handely I will.

And I am not enlightened, as in a master, I am enlightened because I am aware of the truth of who I am, and what is happening in reality, and the truth sets you free.

I have not put my viewpoints above anyone, nor do I profess too. All I am doing is expressing what I believe to be right and showing you the truth. I am doing what an peace loving human being should do. However, when mass murder of hundreds of thousands is justified or dismissed as a triavility or something to simply ignore, I evoke my satya dharma, that was imparted to Arjuna by Krishna in the Bhagvad Gita.

How I know all of this? It's not because I am a Hindu, it is because I have learned a lot from Krishna, as well as Jesus and Buddha. These were the mens, the truly courageous, who tried to teach love and wisdom to our society. I admire these men, they tried to save this world from it's misery. We need more people like them today, because when people in their millions, actually begin to justify mass murders, there is obviously something wrong.

Not everyone would agree with your singular view of the American military. Have there been crimes committed? Yes. Does that make ALL those serving in the military worthy of your labels of judgement? No. In fact, I was not aware that Dharma allowed judgement of others to such a harsh degree.

Actually, I have not said all American mlitary are mindless, genocide-commiting villians, I am just saying most are. I am also saying true heroes are rare, and I just happen to be sick of our army being portrayed as heroes, when the bulk of it, is comprised of cold blooded murders.

Enough evidence has produced so far, that clearly shows this is an instituional problem.

I suppose you forget that their former ruler killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. I suppose you forget that he had prisons for children who were tortured and forced to watch their parents tortured to solicit "confessions" from them? Probably even forget that he bribed many countries with vast untapped oilfields to get sanctions lifted. Sanctions that were applied when he ruthlessly attacked a neighboring country to rape and pillage it.

I suppose you forget that we are there to liberate them from the former ruler? Who is going to liberate them from the current ruler in Bush? Maybe, God will have to incarnate himself, because it certainly does not seem anyone in society gives a damn.


[edit on 8-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

I disagree i think it's braver and thus more heroic to join willingly knowing full well you may be called apon by your country and asked to fight to defend it's way of life.

There is a fine line between stupid and brave. Then again, I think willingly choosing the army over prison, shows at least some intelligence. Simply, because there are people who want to be cannon fodder, does not mean they are brave and honourable.

There are more reasons for joining the army than this naive "our heores"" outlook you have:

1. You're stupid
2. You're unemployed/homeless
3. You're suicidal
4. You're depressed
5. You're a criminal
6. You think it's cool
7. You're a nationalist/jingoist
8. You're family and friends are in the army

I rather take offense to that, as a veteran.

1. I don't consider msyelf stupid, and niether did the people who tested my IQ, which is 138, if you must ask.
2. I was in school, not homeless, and technically, not unemployed. I had many other opportunities for me upon graduation from high school. I chose the army.
3. I had every intention of a long, fruitful life.
4. Sure I was. So is everyone from tiem to time. Had nothing to do with my joining the army.
5. I never have gotten so much as a parking ticket, let alone committed any serious crime.
6. It wasnt very cool at the time, especially where I came from. My friends told me I was nuts, and my family shook their heads.
7. Nope. Believing in the principles this country was founded on makes me niether nationalist, nor jingoist. I had my own ideas about what was best for the country.
8. I was the only one in my family to join the army since Vietnam.

I find the picture you paint of our troops offensive, to say the least. It seems you have been influence too much, or brainwashed, into believing that soldiers are little more than robotic mindless cannon fodder without heart, soul, or morality. UNTRUE.

We all had families. We all had hobbies. We all had various religous, or lack of, religous beliefs. We came from different backgrounds. We were of different races. We held varying political beliefs. We varied in our reasons for joining. We had love, we had hate, we had nightmares, we had dreams. We were about as human as anyone else.

What we did was choose a job. In your case, a very thankless job, in many cases. We opened ourselves up to hatred, ridicule, stereyotypes, and violence.

It was a dirty job, but someone had to do it. the fact that we chose such a life, a life of strict scrutiny, discipline, and reduced freedoms, is not a choice of insanity. It was a sacrifice, and we did so willingly.

Youre obviously out of date. The ol "join the army or go to jail" program has been out of date for over 20 years. All are volunteer, and a criminal record, when I joined, could reduce your chances of getting in.

I find your views a bit unenlightened. There must be balance of all things. We need philosophers. We need warriors. We need intellectuals, and we need muscles. We need all things.

Not every soldier is a hero, no. But to choose the life that we did, it means were made of a little tougher stuff than normal. Someone has to do the job. The world is not a nice place. it never has been,. and never will be.

Someone has to take upon the burden of being the first line of defense when things get nasty.