Or are they murderous, mindless, villians?

There are too many around us, and that may include you, who express this sentiment about our armed forces "our heores" conversely the same can express disdain for the administration. Is this duplicity? Yes, it would seem so.

Are people showing their patriotism for their country by lobbying behind their armed forces? Or, are they showing their support, good wishes and love for their family and friends fighting in Iraq?

Yet it would appear there is a split done the line, where so many who are actually supporting "our heroes" do not actually support the war? Hold the phone, that seems like a contradiction. Is it not "our heores" that are instrumenting the orders of the administation in the first place. Is it not true without "our heroes" implementing the orders of the administration, there would be no war at all?

So if you are supporting "our heores" logic dictates, you must be supporting the war and you must be supporting the administration.

Hold on there, I hear you say. "I am not supporting Bush," "I am not supporting the war" yet that is what you think, because in action, mind, body and heart, you are supporting "our heroes" who are supporting the administration of Bush. So, by a simple logical deducation; in action, mind, body and heart, you are supporting the Bush administration and it's policies. What I have said can be characterized by the infamous Pyramid structure on the back of a dollar bill.

You are supporting "our heroes", they are supporting the "administration" the administration is supporting a global agenda. So, while you may not endorse the agenda of the administration, you are nonethless supporting it. If you were to withdraw your support, the administration would collapse.

If you are not willing to do this. Then, it must mean you support the administration. It does not matter what your opinion is of it, because that exists only in the realm of your mind, not in the physical. In the same way workers on the bottom of the pyramid of an organization, whom may complain about their wages, about their job, they may dislike or hate the organization in which they work, but nonetheless support it physically. The irony is, what they hate, is what they empower.

So who are you? A nationalist or a patriot?

There are many who are showing their patriotism by supporting the armed forces? But as shown above, that really is supporting the administration and it's policies, so perhaps a more apt world would be nationalism or jingoism? Are you proud to be called a nationalist or jingoist, or indeed even a fanatic? Because that is what you have chosen to be - apparently.

So now that we have established your support for the administration. Let's shift focus to those special souls who matter - "our heroes" For them to be our heroes, you must know the following to be true:

1. They are genuinely heroes that protect and serve the people by putting their own lives at stake. After all they have gone to a foreign country to liberate people from evil.

or

2. They are family or friends sent to war, therefore they must be your "heroes"

or

3. They are our armed forces, therefore they must be "our heroes"

But, it appears the first one is not true. I think it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the people of Iraq are not being protected or liberated, except we could say 100,000+ Iraqi's have been liberated from their bodies, i.e. killed. Nor, does it take a rocket scientist to figure out, that some dozens, if not hundreds of Iraqi's being abused in prison camps, or forced by the barrel of a gun to be marked with DNA and retina scans, is protection.

So it must be '2' or '3' which means "our heores" are only "our heores" because they are our family or friends, or because they in our armed forces. So it's an emotional support. And those emotions are greater than the lives of some 100,000 men, women and children. Yet, in hard, physical realirty, there is nothing that justifies the titles of "our heroes"

There IS a lot in reality, however, that does not support the title of "our heroes" Reports abound in every conflict, "our heores" have been involved in, of stupidity, arrogance, abuse, rape, pillaging and racism. Of course we know many of these reports to be true too.

Did anyone see "Casualities of War" based on a true story, where an entire squadron was involved in abducting a Vietnamise girl, gang raping her, and then shooting her in cold blood. Does anyone know that US soliders, sergants and generals are actually involved in ganging raping girls, and killing them, in Kosovo, and are involved in the operation of many brothels for prostitution, whose primary customers are "our heroes" mind you this is after they "liberated" Kosovo. Does anyone know a US general was involved in the rape of a 14 year old boy in Iraq just recently?

Are "our heroes" criminals? Actually, maybe a lot of them are. Did you not know that criminals are drafted into the US army. They are given a choice: "Go to jail or join the army" I wonder how many have chosen "go to prison". Of course, such criminal actions of "our heroes" are not just confined abroad. Haven't "our heroes" been involved in brutally attacking our own citizens in Miami, Portland, Seattle? Haven't "our heroes" been involved in shooting little children, shooting peoples dogs? Haven't our heroes been involved in the mass murder of WACO?

So who joins our military? criminals? sexually frustrated men? deprived men? cold-blooded murderers? bullies? beer junkies?

Yet, so many maintain they are "our heroes" so If they really are "our heroes" that are "liberating" and "protecting" people - then maybe we need to change the meaning of the words. Maybe, "hero" should really mean a vile, wicked, evil and criminal person. Maybe "liberating" should mean to oppress and enslave. And maybe, "protecting" should mean to abuse, hurt, damage, molest and kill.

So, does this mean, that by supporting "our heroes" not only are you supporting the US government administration, and it's policies, but you 're also supporting it's actions; rape, genocide, murder, pillaging, oppression.

I wonder if the Nazi's were "our heroes"

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

How can they be heroes if that is what they are paid and trained to do? A german shephard can be trained to guard your house, but I wouldn't consider them heroes.

A hero is usually one who does what is not expected of him. I kind of laugh when medals are handed out for losing a limb. Lose a limb in a purple heart. I think I'd rather have the uses of my limbs than some cast iron.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Justanotherperson]

I saw that movie you referred to. I think Michael J Fox played the whistle-blower, but I may be wrong?

The C.O was really angry that he wanted to report the murder. His angle was in War there is no crime.

As far as heroes go, I think a hero would be defined as a soldier that refused to carry out orders and actions that he/she knew were wrong, if you get what I mean.

I think a hero is a person who saves a life/several lives under troublesome conditions. Risking his/hers own life doing it. -And preferrably survives.
A dead person isn't necessarily becoming a hero, just because he/she died.
A soldier becomes a hero if he/she saves someone.
If the soldier just die under a firefight, being a scout in front, stepping on a mine etc. doesn't make him/her anything else than a casualty of war.

Hard and cynical statement, yes. Perhaps. Life is too.

I agree with much of what's been said, even though I just retired from the military last year.

WWII, for example, was clearly different: those soldiers really were fighting a true & present menace. Our guys & gals in Iraq are doing that too, I suppose, but the menace they're facing was created by our government's own inappropriate actions.

Following orders is very much the cultural norm in the military, and I don't think this is a bad thing - provided those orders are initiated by sane & moral leadership for sane & moral reasons. That's why my heart goes out to the troops...it's an impossible situation for the average soldier to whom refusing to follow orders is simply not a viable option.

Furthermore, now that Bush & his cronies have gotten us into this mess, we can't just pack up and leave. If - and I accept this is a BIG if - it all works out in the end, and we leave Iraq in good shape, then those military members who helped bring that about are worthy of our respect, at the very least. None of them asked for any of this, any more than Iraqi civilians did.

It's worth noting that in my 20+ years in the military, I never met a single "war monger." There's a strong desire to avoid war, and when war becomes necessary (either truly necessary or as dictated by whatever jerkoff is living in the White House), the attention reverts to ending it as quickly as possible with as little "collateral damage" as possible.

As far as the hero question: many past heroes have been military people, and many future ones will be military as well...but not everyone who goes to war is automatically a hero. Just going where you're told and doing what you're told - even if you end up paying the ultimate price - doesn't automatically qualify a person for hero status. A hero in this context would be a person who risked (or sacrificed) their life in order to save others.

Well they are not heroes to me, just pawns in a doomed plan and I feel sorry for them.
Its just a shame they have to die just so America will learn a simple lession.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Johnny Redburn]

Or are they murderous, mindless, villians?

There are too many around us, and that may include you, who express this sentiment about our armed forces "our heores" conversely the same can express disdain for the administration. Is this duplicity? Yes, it would seem so.
.........

Ok, as much as I disapprove of the war and of president bush, I disagree with a lot of your points here. First of all a hero is somebody who goes above and beyond the call of duty. Somebody who puts his or her own life on the line or sacrafices his or her life for somebody else. All the soldiers are not heroes. Jessica Lynch a hero? Hell nah. The media labels her one, but in reality she was just a POW. She screwed up and drove right into the enemy's hands. You could call the people that rescued her heroes.

Anyways, you can't bash the troops like that. They are making the ultimate sacrafice of risking their lives. How many of you have risked your lives for a cause? I thought we learned this from Vietnam. Soldiers would come back from risking their lives for their country and get booed and spit on. Not everyone in the military is sadistic and rapes kids. I guess it's like they say.. One bad apple spoils the bunch. Most people join the military because of the benefits. Free ride through school, it looks like gold on the resume, and that's just touching the surface. Honestly, you can't blame them. They're just doing their job. Every person knows that joining the military you could go to war. That's what it's there for. Not everybody in the military supports the war. My best friend who's totally anti-war, and anti-bush is in afghanistan right now with the national guard. Should I just disown him as a best friend, so I won't indirectly be supporting the war? Please. Supporting your troops is not the same as supporting the war. I want our troops to come home as soon as possible. They shouldn't be in that situation. I'm not going to go as far as putting one of those lame ribbons on my car, but I will always support the men and women who risk their lives. Nothing but respect.

Ok, as much as I disapprove of the war and of president bush, I disagree with a lot of your points here.

Which illustrates that you are in agreement with what I have said. That you are supporting "our heroes" that are the ones carrying out the orders. You are the bottom layer of the pyramid. The outcome is the same.

First of all a hero is somebody who goes above and beyond the call of duty. Somebody who puts his or her own life on the line or sacrafices his or her life for somebody else. All the soldiers are not heroes. Jessica Lynch a hero? Hell nah. The media labels her one, but in reality she was just a POW. She screwed up and drove right into the enemy's hands. You could call the people that rescued her heroes.

I am not calling them "our heroes" I am just mirroring what the bulk of the people are saying. Did you know that the soliders involved in the recent Abu Gharib prison abuse, were greeted by their states, as national heroes?

Anyways, you can't bash the troops like that. They are making the ultimate sacrafice of risking their lives. How many of you have risked your lives for a cause? I thought we learned this from Vietnam.

Apparently, I know a bunch of suicide bombers, that fly planes into buildings. Yes, that certainly is something to respect, isn't it?

I am not bashing your soliders. I am just letting you have the facts. So you can do the bashing for me, provided you are not brainwashed by the "our heroes" thing.

Not everyone in the military is sadistic and rapes kids. I guess it's like they say.. One bad apple spoils the bunch.

It's not everyone in the military who are sadistic and rape kids, it just happens to be that a few bad apples managed to slaughter some 100,000 Iraqi's, abuse and molest prisoners in several prison camps holding hundreds of prisoners from Iraq, to Afghanistan, to Guatamano Bay.

What this really means, when I sift through the BS, that anything deplorable, sadistic, and evil, done by US forces, irrespective of their frequency and commonality, are the accountability of the people who commit them, and happen to get caught commiting them. Yet, anything deplorable, sadistic and evil done by any enemy, is the accountability of the race, country, demographic or organization to which they belong.

Please do forgive me, if I laugh. You can forgive me now. I'm done.

Honestly, you can't blame them. They're just doing their job.

And their job is what? To rape little boys and girls? To turn citizens into a sex market for generals, sergants and soliders? To slaughter thousands of Iraqi's?

Please. Supporting your troops is not the same as supporting the war. I want our troops to come home as soon as possible. They shouldn't be in that situation. I'm not going to go as far as putting one of those lame ribbons on my car, but I will always support the men and women who risk their lives. Nothing but respect.

I've said it already? You are not supporting the war, right? Yet you are supporting those who are carrying out the war? So what are you doing? Supporting the war. If you were paying attention, I said, that though you are a part of an organization and do not support it's agenda, by working for them, you are doing just what you oppose, supporting the agenda.

At the end of the post, I said "I wonder if the Nazi's were our heroes" and I said it, because I anticipated a reply like yours. How many atrocities did it take for the germans, or even the jews, for them to know that it was institutional?

How many reports, accounts, testimony is it going to take you to know that that "our heroes" actions are institutional? Let me answer it for you - too many. Apparently, a criminal's crimes are deplorable, sadistic and evil, until he joins the military and does the same, he becomes "our hero" I'm laughing again, please forgive me.

Mate, you are indirectly supporting murder, rape, genocide, and when you cut out the hyprocisy, the duplicity and the BS, and face the reality of your role in this war, and accept it, I am going to respect you a tad more.

We all rationalize and justify everything. Everyone of us do it. My ex girlfriend was particularly good at it. But that does mean our rationalization is ratonal. The reality is, and this is not even an opinion, it's logic, that you are supporting the war and everything that is resulting from it. Shame on you(that's an opinion)

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

From what i have heard about the US military they are very honerable people and the generals probably care a heck of a lot more about each soldier that dies than their civilian commanders in the government. They understand the reality of war and do their job to the best of their ability. I think a lot of the problems that they are having and have had in the past are because of civilians at the pentagon messing with long standing rules of war, restructing the military and pushing for using less troops and equipment than they would like to use in situations. I saw a documentry about this tonight, it was insightful.

Originally posted by Trent
From what i have heard about the US military they are very honerable people and the generals probably care a heck of a lot more about each soldier that dies than their civilian commanders in the government. They understand the reality of war and do their job to the best of their ability. I think a lot of the problems that they are having and have had in the past are because of civilians at the pentagon messing with long standing rules of war, restructing the military and pushing for using less troops and equipment than they would like to use in situations. I saw a documentry about this tonight, it was insightful.

I've also seen documentaries calling the Nazi's intelligent, enlightened and honourable people. Some advice: Don't believe everything you hear; question everything.

So who are you? A nationalist or a patriot?
For them to be our heroes, you must know the following to be true:

1. They are genuinely heroes that protect and serve the people by putting their own lives at stake. After all they have gone to a foreign country to liberate people from evil.

or

2. They are family or friends sent to war, therefore they must be your "heroes"

or

3. They are our armed forces, therefore they must be "our heroes"

But, it appears the first one is not true. I think it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the people of Iraq are not being protected or liberated, except we could say 100,000+ Iraqi's have been liberated from their bodies, i.e. killed. Nor, does it take a rocket scientist to figure out, that some dozens, if not hundreds of Iraqi's being abused in prison camps, or forced by the barrel of a gun to be marked with DNA and retina scans, is protection.

Where in Iraq are the Iraqi's being forced to "marked" with DNA and retina scans at the barrel of a gun?

Are "our heroes" criminals? Actually, maybe a lot of them are. Did you not know that criminals are drafted into the US army. They are given a choice: "Go to jail or join the army" I wonder how many have chosen "go to prison". Of course, such criminal actions of "our heroes" are not just confined abroad.

So what? Are you aware that Australia was founded largely with convicts from overflowing British prisons? By your standards, this means that all Australians are vile, wicked, and evil.

It's so terrible that the US is the only oppressive, genocidal, murdering nation on earth, isn't it? Your heroes - or is it heores, please make up your mind, I thought Crystalline Children were supposed to be brighter than that - are so much purer and innocent. Lucky you.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Originally posted by Trent
From what i have heard about the US military they are very honerable people and the generals probably care a heck of a lot more about each soldier that dies than their civilian commanders in the government. They understand the reality of war and do their job to the best of their ability. I think a lot of the problems that they are having and have had in the past are because of civilians at the pentagon messing with long standing rules of war, restructing the military and pushing for using less troops and equipment than they would like to use in situations. I saw a documentry about this tonight, it was insightful.

I've also seen documentaries calling the Nazi's intelligent, enlightened and honourable people. Some advice: Don't believe everything you hear; question everything.

Some Germans probably were, it's not their fault they believed their government and thought they were doing the right thing. The propganda of those times looks silly when viewed now, even the allies propaganda but back then it was obviously very persuasive. It's easy to say you would have done differently but put in the situation they were it's likely you would have done what they did (by this i mean joining the army and fighting other armies not the war crimes commited against civilians)... since like them you are human. To make sure it's clear I'm talking about the regular German military here and not their "police" forces.

Anyway nothing makes me more sick than when someone who believed in their country and fought for it in a war is spat on when they return because the war is no longer popular. Like what happened after Vietnam. The ones that commit war crimes should be tried but don't get anrgy at the majority because of the actions of a few sick individuals.

Hero's or not

It doesn't matter one jot to me what people think of the troops over there.
They are there doing a job they signed up for. Putting your life everyday in the line of fire and dealing with all the horrific scenes they come across, to me is heroic.

How many people would honestly want to do their job?

I'm sure i speak for all the families who have sons & daughters out there the same as i have. We maybe don't all agree with the war, but we are as proud as hell of our sons/daughters who are doing their jobs over there.


To me, my son will always be a hero..........

Originally posted by jsobecky
Where in Iraq are the Iraqi's being forced to "marked" with DNA and retina scans at the barrel of a gun?

Where have you been? Certainly not Fulluja?

So what? Are you aware that Australia was founded largely with convicts from overflowing British prisons? By your standards, this means that all Australians are vile, wicked, and evil.

Not, unless Australians are born criminals. In the case of US forces however, convicted criminals are drafted into the military.
Now that is a really poor and laughable show of intelligence, for someone who made a snide remark about my own.

It's so terrible that the US is the only oppressive, genocidal, murdering nation on earth, isn't it? Your heroes - or is it heores, please make up your mind, I thought Crystalline Children were supposed to be brighter than that - are so much purer and innocent. Lucky you.

Shooting the messenger will not change the truth. Now please, let's leave myself out of this, and concentrate on "our heroes" and their actions.
Not the actions of other murderous, genocidal nations on Earth, but the actions of "our heroes" who apparently are there to do the opposite.

I would also like to add: "Two wrongs don't make a right" You can try again mate, but sharpen up on the logic and the subject matter, will ya.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Bikereddie

How many people would honestly want to do their job?

How many people would choose prison over the army? That's how many.

To me, my son will always be a hero..........

I feel sorry for you that your son is involved in the genocide of the Iraqi people. However, that should not perturb you, because your son will always he a hero. To put some perspective on this, so will the freedom fighting sons of many Iraqis. I am sure in some countries, the so calld 19 that gave their life in the WTC attacks, are heroes too.

That's a good trade you know. If I ever want to be a known as a hero, all I do is go to war, lose a limb or two, and get a medal for my heroism. ~ rolling eyes indeed.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

I consider this to be the first war in which our media/government have loosely used the term "heroes" describing all who serve in our military and who push forward the objective in Iraq/Afgan. Our neo-con goverment has implemented fear politics to achieve their agenda since day one of taking over the oval office in Washington. By describing the US military service men and women as brave 'heroes' our fears can momentarily be layed to rest knowing that we're being protected against the wrath of evil abroad.

Our beds remain warmer this way,

I believe our military volenteer service men/women who continue to push forth the agenda of the neo-cons in the Iraq/Afgan war should be considered 'employees' over the loose term of 'heroes'.

When the government implements the draft and fellow American citizens are forced to fight to survive who overcome all odds while facing death shall then be considered "true heroes".

With that post i think i get your point, it's interesting to think about but as long as someone doesn't intentionly kill civilians then depending on their actions they could be considered a hero. I agree that joining the army does not automatically make you a hero, it is brave to say the least though.



[edit on 7-12-2004 by Trent]

If I ever want to be a known as a hero, all I do is go to war, lose a limb or two, and get a medal for my heroism. ~ rolling eyes indeed.

Thanks for your message regarding my son, but i think it came with a hint of sarcasm regarding the above quote.

Originally posted by syntaxer
When the government implements the draft and fellow American citizens are forced to fight to survive who overcome all odds while facing death shall then be considered "true heroes".

I disagree i think it's braver and thus more heroic to join willingly knowing full well you may be called apon by your country and asked to fight to defend it's way of life. I'm not a brave person and i have great respect for all who have died so i can sleep safely in my nice warm bed at night, i don't think i have the courage to do what our service men and women did and are still doing now. Like i said before, some soldiers do commit war crimes but the vast majority are brave honerable people. My grandfather joined the army before WW2 started and he did what he did in that war because he had to. He had no hatred for the Japanese he killed, when i was a very young boy i remember asking him if he killed anyone during the war. The look in his eyes and what he said is something i can even remember now, he just looked terribly sad and said "it was them or me" You can not even imagine what situations some of these soldiers face and i think most soldiers (who have grown up with moral values) do the best they possibly can in an impossible situation. I think calling them heroes is the least we can do to try to repay the dept that we all owe these people for protecting our way of life. You have to remember that they don't choose which wars they fight in, they join to protect their country and it's the government who decides how to do that.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Trent]

I disagree i think it's braver and thus more heroic to join willingly knowing full well you may be called apon by your country and asked to fight to defend it's way of life.

There is a fine line between stupid and brave. Then again, I think willingly choosing the army over prison, shows at least some intelligence. Simply, because there are people who want to be cannon fodder, does not mean they are brave and honourable.

There are more reasons for joining the army than this naive "our heores"" outlook you have:

1. You're stupid
2. You're unemployed/homeless
3. You're suicidal
4. You're depressed
5. You're a criminal
6. You think it's cool
7. You're a nationalist/jingoist
8. You're family and friends are in the army

Very few of those who join the army, are actually doing it out of the love of their country. I am not saying there are none, but the truth is, those true honourable soliders you speak of, are few and far between, and often have to succumb to the mass. Heroes are rare to find.

In the movie, causalities of war, the whistle blower solider, was ignored by his friends, a lot of the army generals, a lot of his fellow soliders, because to them, it was nothing. He was just an overly sensitive panzy. That solider was a true hero. He actually tried to protect and liberate the vietnamiz
se girl, and he fought for the values he joined the army for.

The real brave people are those who fight for their values and freedom. "our heroes" are not doing that, they are following orders, they are abusing their power. Honour is not something you get, when you join a group, it is something you earn through deed.

You said the vast majority are honourable? Where did you get this from? The documentary you saw? The frequency and commonality of "war crimes" you say, and the fact that entire establishments are involved in systematic abuse, shouts loud and clear to those who are not covering their ears with their hands, that this IS institutional. Their Nazi's, that's what they are.

They are trained to kill, to abuse. They are systematically desensitized and dumbed down by psychological conditioning and brainwashing. This has actually been caught on video. Something, they probably did not show you in the documentary you saw. They are taught to be brutal and cold blooded.

There is a forum member here who claims to been an ex-marine or something in Iraq, and listen to what he has to say. He says very much the same that I am telling you, and it is supported by hard facts.

Mate, "our heroes" will be the ones who will be running around amok in our cities when and if martial law is declared, and looking at their human rights record, would you want "our heroes" around you, your family, your girlfriend, sons and daughters, or indeed your dog.

What is your impression of the Nazi's by the way? Do you hestitate to say they are "heroes" because going by your standards for bravery and heroism, I would be careful how you answer this one.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]