Will an independant Scotland be part of NATO, UN treatise. Have a Military?

a reply to: angryhulk

On C4 news tonight some Scottish people were being asked their opinion from the report in Scotland and most of them seemed clueless and unquestioning, a few were old and perhaps don't bother researching places like the net where they would realise that there a lot of unanswered questions that need to be answered for educated decisions, some were saying all sorts of things but none could answer anything worthwhile about essentials like economics and defense, therefore it appears that many are making uneducated votes, which is not good.

As I said before, I grew up in Scotland and have family and friends there and I know how many Scots think, or rather lack of thinking when it comes to certain things. Scottish people aren't stupid generally, just some are a bit brainwashed and bigoted about religion, the English and foreigners. I hear it on facebook and it reminds me of my childhood, it is a fact.

However tomorrow they will be voting on their future and that matters to the them a lot and to the future of Scotland. I don't feel patriotic towards Scotland nor anywhere really. I like traditional British values and I consider myself a UK citizen and I guess European. I have family and friends all round the world and the most patriotic people I know of are the Scots.

I wouldn't mind Scotland being independent if it was a good choice for them and the rest of the UK, however is not the time or the circumstances for that, especially during economic recovery. It has put added strain on the economy as it is.

As it appears, SNP are clueless and have been leading the Scots a merry dance, their lack of crucial knowledge and answers proves their strategy is nothing more than a wing and a prayer built upon quicksand.

Let's hope the people of Scotland realise that cutting off their noses in spite of their faces is more harmful to them than the rest of the UK.

I have said about as much as I can bear to on ATS about it now and everything I have said is in good faith and good purpose but somehow it has appeared futile. Talking to deaf ears that hear only the things they want to is pointless.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: angryhulk

On C4 news tonight some Scottish people were being asked their opinion from the report in Scotland and most of them seemed clueless and unquestioning, a few were old and perhaps don't bother researching places like the net where they would realise that there a lot of unanswered questions that need to be answered for educated decisions, some were saying all sorts of things but none could answer anything worthwhile about essentials like economics and defense, therefore it appears that many are making uneducated votes, which is not good.

As I said before, I grew up in Scotland and have family and friends there and I know how many Scots think, or rather lack of thinking when it comes to certain things. Scottish people aren't stupid generally, just some are a bit brainwashed and bigoted about religion, the English and foreigners. I hear it on facebook and it reminds me of my childhood, it is a fact.

However tomorrow they will be voting on their future and that matters to the them a lot and to the future of Scotland. I don't feel patriotic towards Scotland nor anywhere really. I like traditional British values and I consider myself a UK citizen and I guess European. I have family and friends all round the world and the most patriotic people I know of are the Scots.

I wouldn't mind Scotland being independent if it was a good choice for them and the rest of the UK, however is not the time or the circumstances for that, especially during economic recovery. It has put added strain on the economy as it is.

As it appears, SNP are clueless and have been leading the Scots a merry dance, their lack of crucial knowledge and answers proves their strategy is nothing more than a wing and a prayer built upon quicksand.

Let's hope the people of Scotland realise that cutting off their noses in spite of their faces is more harmful to them than the rest of the UK.

I have said about as much as I can bear to on ATS about it now and everything I have said is in good faith and good purpose but somehow it has appeared futile. Talking to deaf ears that hear only the things they want to is pointless.

And the rest of the UK has Carl Sagan's everywhere you look.
Alex Salmond is a Economist and has the qualifications and experience working in that environment to back that up, Gideon Osbourne has a degree in History and once worked somewhere for a week or two before he got into Politics ...who would you trust with facts and more importantly Figures.?

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: nonspecific

That's like being gay and homophobic, you are an enigma

I must say that the only time I've been embarrassed for being English was when I lived in Dublin and learned the real history of Ireland and the struggle they went through against the English. Something that was never taught to me in school.

So you can understand my sympathy with the Scottish independance movement, it is surley no different in Scotland over the past couple of hundred of years or indeed Wales for that matter. Although granted Ireland has been somewhat more active in there fight for independance.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: angryhulk

On C4 news tonight some Scottish people were being asked their opinion from the report in Scotland and most of them seemed clueless and unquestioning, a few were old and perhaps don't bother researching places like the net where they would realise that there a lot of unanswered questions that need to be answered for educated decisions, some were saying all sorts of things but none could answer anything worthwhile about essentials like economics and defense, therefore it appears that many are making uneducated votes, which is not good.

As I said before, I grew up in Scotland and have family and friends there and I know how many Scots think, or rather lack of thinking when it comes to certain things. Scottish people aren't stupid generally, just some are a bit brainwashed and bigoted about religion, the English and foreigners. I hear it on facebook and it reminds me of my childhood, it is a fact.

However tomorrow they will be voting on their future and that matters to the them a lot and to the future of Scotland. I don't feel patriotic towards Scotland nor anywhere really. I like traditional British values and I consider myself a UK citizen and I guess European. I have family and friends all round the world and the most patriotic people I know of are the Scots.

I wouldn't mind Scotland being independent if it was a good choice for them and the rest of the UK, however is not the time or the circumstances for that, especially during economic recovery. It has put added strain on the economy as it is.

As it appears, SNP are clueless and have been leading the Scots a merry dance, their lack of crucial knowledge and answers proves their strategy is nothing more than a wing and a prayer built upon quicksand.

Let's hope the people of Scotland realise that cutting off their noses in spite of their faces is more harmful to them than the rest of the UK.

I have said about as much as I can bear to on ATS about it now and everything I have said is in good faith and good purpose but somehow it has appeared futile. Talking to deaf ears that hear only the things they want to is pointless.

Brilliant post.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: angryhulk

On C4 news tonight some Scottish people were being asked their opinion from the report in Scotland and most of them seemed clueless and unquestioning, a few were old and perhaps don't bother researching places like the net where they would realise that there a lot of unanswered questions that need to be answered for educated decisions, some were saying all sorts of things but none could answer anything worthwhile about essentials like economics and defense, therefore it appears that many are making uneducated votes, which is not good.

As I said before, I grew up in Scotland and have family and friends there and I know how many Scots think, or rather lack of thinking when it comes to certain things. Scottish people aren't stupid generally, just some are a bit brainwashed and bigoted about religion, the English and foreigners. I hear it on facebook and it reminds me of my childhood, it is a fact.

However tomorrow they will be voting on their future and that matters to the them a lot and to the future of Scotland. I don't feel patriotic towards Scotland nor anywhere really. I like traditional British values and I consider myself a UK citizen and I guess European. I have family and friends all round the world and the most patriotic people I know of are the Scots.

I wouldn't mind Scotland being independent if it was a good choice for them and the rest of the UK, however is not the time or the circumstances for that, especially during economic recovery. It has put added strain on the economy as it is.

As it appears, SNP are clueless and have been leading the Scots a merry dance, their lack of crucial knowledge and answers proves their strategy is nothing more than a wing and a prayer built upon quicksand.

Let's hope the people of Scotland realise that cutting off their noses in spite of their faces is more harmful to them than the rest of the UK.

I have said about as much as I can bear to on ATS about it now and everything I have said is in good faith and good purpose but somehow it has appeared futile. Talking to deaf ears that hear only the things they want to is pointless.

And the rest of the UK has Carl Sagan's everywhere you look.
Alex Salmond is a Economist and has the qualifications and experience working in that environment to back that up, Gideon Osbourne has a degree in History and once worked somewhere for a week or two before he got into Politics ...who would you trust with facts and more importantly Figures.?

I believe I already answered this question (or similar) on the previous thread and my response was something along the lines of "Alex Salmonds office was a stones throw away from my house, and I wouldn't trust him with wiping his own arse". See I actually have local experience with him and it was during his time that Peterheads strongest economy in fishing, collapsed (you must know about Peterhead fishing ports, right?) the town centre deteriorated, local businesses fled, college places were lost due to funding (or lack of), oh and my favourite has to be (and you might remember this, being an avid Salmond follower) when he wrote to the home secretary to protect an illegal inmigrant, requesting indefinite leave to remain in the UK. It turned out the illegal immigrant worked in the chinese restaurant literally facing his office, and the man was facing drug charges. It seems Salmond was worried about the impact this would have on his chicken fried rice.

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: angryhulk

On C4 news tonight some Scottish people were being asked their opinion from the report in Scotland and most of them seemed clueless and unquestioning, a few were old and perhaps don't bother researching places like the net where they would realise that there a lot of unanswered questions that need to be answered for educated decisions, some were saying all sorts of things but none could answer anything worthwhile about essentials like economics and defense, therefore it appears that many are making uneducated votes, which is not good.

As I said before, I grew up in Scotland and have family and friends there and I know how many Scots think, or rather lack of thinking when it comes to certain things. Scottish people aren't stupid generally, just some are a bit brainwashed and bigoted about religion, the English and foreigners. I hear it on facebook and it reminds me of my childhood, it is a fact.

However tomorrow they will be voting on their future and that matters to the them a lot and to the future of Scotland. I don't feel patriotic towards Scotland nor anywhere really. I like traditional British values and I consider myself a UK citizen and I guess European. I have family and friends all round the world and the most patriotic people I know of are the Scots.

I wouldn't mind Scotland being independent if it was a good choice for them and the rest of the UK, however is not the time or the circumstances for that, especially during economic recovery. It has put added strain on the economy as it is.

As it appears, SNP are clueless and have been leading the Scots a merry dance, their lack of crucial knowledge and answers proves their strategy is nothing more than a wing and a prayer built upon quicksand.

Let's hope the people of Scotland realise that cutting off their noses in spite of their faces is more harmful to them than the rest of the UK.

I have said about as much as I can bear to on ATS about it now and everything I have said is in good faith and good purpose but somehow it has appeared futile. Talking to deaf ears that hear only the things they want to is pointless.

And the rest of the UK has Carl Sagan's everywhere you look.
Alex Salmond is a Economist and has the qualifications and experience working in that environment to back that up, Gideon Osbourne has a degree in History and once worked somewhere for a week or two before he got into Politics ...who would you trust with facts and more importantly Figures.?

I believe I already answered this question (or similar) on the previous thread and my response was something along the lines of "Alex Salmonds office was a stones throw away from my house, and I wouldn't trust him with wiping his own arse". See I actually have local experience with him and it was during his time that Peterheads strongest economy in fishing, collapsed (you must know about Peterhead fishing ports, right?) the town centre deteriorated, local businesses fled, college places were lost due to funding (or lack of), oh and my favourite has to be (and you might remember this, being an avid Salmond follower) when he wrote to the home secretary to protect an illegal inmigrant, requesting indefinite leave to remain in the UK. It turned out the illegal immigrant worked in the chinese restaurant literally facing his office, and the man was facing drug charges. It seems Salmond was worried about the impact this would have on his chicken fried rice.

I get it...You wont be sending Alex a Christmas card this year.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: angryhulk

On C4 news tonight some Scottish people were being asked their opinion from the report in Scotland and most of them seemed clueless and unquestioning, a few were old and perhaps don't bother researching places like the net where they would realise that there a lot of unanswered questions that need to be answered for educated decisions, some were saying all sorts of things but none could answer anything worthwhile about essentials like economics and defense, therefore it appears that many are making uneducated votes, which is not good.

As I said before, I grew up in Scotland and have family and friends there and I know how many Scots think, or rather lack of thinking when it comes to certain things. Scottish people aren't stupid generally, just some are a bit brainwashed and bigoted about religion, the English and foreigners. I hear it on facebook and it reminds me of my childhood, it is a fact.

However tomorrow they will be voting on their future and that matters to the them a lot and to the future of Scotland. I don't feel patriotic towards Scotland nor anywhere really. I like traditional British values and I consider myself a UK citizen and I guess European. I have family and friends all round the world and the most patriotic people I know of are the Scots.

I wouldn't mind Scotland being independent if it was a good choice for them and the rest of the UK, however is not the time or the circumstances for that, especially during economic recovery. It has put added strain on the economy as it is.

As it appears, SNP are clueless and have been leading the Scots a merry dance, their lack of crucial knowledge and answers proves their strategy is nothing more than a wing and a prayer built upon quicksand.

Let's hope the people of Scotland realise that cutting off their noses in spite of their faces is more harmful to them than the rest of the UK.

I have said about as much as I can bear to on ATS about it now and everything I have said is in good faith and good purpose but somehow it has appeared futile. Talking to deaf ears that hear only the things they want to is pointless.

And the rest of the UK has Carl Sagan's everywhere you look.
Alex Salmond is a Economist and has the qualifications and experience working in that environment to back that up, Gideon Osbourne has a degree in History and once worked somewhere for a week or two before he got into Politics ...who would you trust with facts and more importantly Figures.?

Let's back up a sec. Alex Salmond is primarily a politician. You've been banging on about how little we should trust the powers that be and the politicians - but Salmond is one of them. Why the hell should you trust him and not the others? Just because he advocates Scottish independence? No, sorry, you don't get to change the rules halfway through the game.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

If Salmond is in cahoots with TPTB, that is in itself the fundamental question...? He is certainly a politician, and as much as I despise them they are a necessary evil to running a country, unless we could all vote on policy over the interwebs... , I digress ... what makes you think he is or is not part of the Eton wanker brigade?

Salmond plays the class card against Cameron with Eton

originally posted by: larapa
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

If Salmond is in cahoots with TPTB, that is in itself the fundamental question...? He is certainly a politician, and as much as I despise them they are a necessary evil to running a country, unless we could all vote on policy over the interwebs... , I digress ... what makes you think he is or is not part of the Eton wanker brigade?

I don't think that he's a member of the Eton wanker brigade. I was just pointing out the fact that he's still a politician, a profession that SoloProtocol seems to despise.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

This vote is not about Alex Salmond. Looking around the Scottish political scene there are no politicians that I would vote for at the moment. I would rather have Alex Salmond in charge up here than any of the main stream political leaders in Westminster. At least following independence we will get who we vote for. It may be that the Scottish political parties will have to re-invent themselves. Supporting independence also does not mean that the choice is based on Salmond's vision or indeed that we must believe everything he says. There are plenty of business leaders, politicians and experts that support independence and see it as a desirable alternative.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: Korg Trinity

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: Korg Trinity
Will An Independent be part of Nato with it's own Military?

Hahahaha Not a chance.... if they go independent they won't be able to afford the clothes on their backs let alone support a military of their own.

Scotland..... for a country with so much history... it sure seems they are devoid of the wise!

Korg.

48 hours of oil left for you...Tick Tock, Tick Tock.

Oh that old nutshell..

So the Scottish think they have leverage over us with oil price? Is that it??

Firstly and fore-mostly Scotland DOES NOT OWN the oil in the North Sea..... Secondly the only revenue Scotland sees of this is in tax revenue for the pipeline.

Guess the pipeline will be extended south of the boarder and hey presto... no more Tax revenue for Scotland!



Korg.

So Westminster plans on Stealing it from us?...Your lot better build another 5 Carriers and have a fleet of warships and subs running from the Shetlands all the way over the border.

Stealing it?

You can't have something stolen if it doesn't belong to you in the first place!

How can you people be so clueless about the reality of your position?

Watching Scotland think they can stand on their own two feet is like watching a terrible singer think they are great on x-factor that refuses to listen to reason!

Korg.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Korg Trinity
Completely and utterly wrong the taxation is based on extraction from a countries exclusive economic zone or extended shelf.
90% of the oil is in Scottish waters.

Sorry but I'm afraid you are wrong on that count.

This from Bloomberg

If Scotland secedes who gets the oil?

he emotional and economic case for independence rests on the idea that the U.K.'s North Sea oil -- which provides about 5 percent of the government's tax revenue -- will belong to Scotland. (Many Scots would say that, in justice, it always did.) "Scotland is endowed with significant oil and gas reserves," says the Scottish government's prospectus for independence. "The tax revenues from these, which currently go to the U.K. Treasury, would remain in Scotland."

It goes on to say...

As the economist Paul Collier recently dared to point out, oil that's already been discovered belongs in law to the U.K. Rights over future oil revenues should therefore be up for negotiation. And the starting point for that discussion should be that, with 8 percent of the U.K.'s population, Scotland might expect 8 percent of the revenues

And this from the Economist

Oxford economist cautions against north sea oil grab

Sir Paul Collier, Professor of Economics at the Blavatnik School of Government at Oxford University, said an independent Scotland would be entitled to only its UK population share of North Sea oil and gas revenue - 8% - and not its geographical share of 90% which the SNP Government insists it would be entitled to.

Sir Paul then goes on to say...

On the issue of North Sea oil and gas, he said: "Scotland is legally entitled to 8% of the UK's oil. This is not a theoretical issue; it's a very important principle in international energy law. Scotland cannot be allowed to set a precedent that elsewhere in the world would be truly dangerous."

So.... if Scotland goes independent it can expect just 8% of TAXATION of the oil.... The oil itself is owned by the the oil and gas companies that extract it!

Korg.

a reply to: Korg Trinity
I'll piss laughing if the continuing UK goes down that route and wins the argument in international circles.
It's not like Scotland could do much about it either.
Harsh thoughts? Maybe, but as I've stated before, I expect my country to screw the best deal it can from any foreign nation, including Scotland if they choose to become one.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
That's 5 of you in here having a go at me..
5-1....What is it, Do you all feel more secure in a group?... safety in Numbers maybe?... Hunting in Packs now.?

Two "members" are now following me from thread to thread like a couple of prepubecent groupies after One Direction.

Must have ruffled a few feathers with the mention of Oil..or the lack of it for that matter...

Tick Tock, Tick Tock...

Perhaps this is because there are more people in here with sense to speak up against the preposterous Idea of holding a referendum on something based upon emotion as opposed to raw hard facts!

Here are a few FACTS that you may want to mull over.

FACT.... If Independent NO financial support from the rest of the UK PERIOD.
FACT.... No Financial plan is in place for Scotland's independent future.
FACT.... 9 out of 10 people in Scotland are on State paid benefits of one description or another.
FACT.... An independent Scotland would no longer have access to the NHS.
FACT.... Scotland would have to take it's share of the national debt £100 billion.
FACT.... Scotland will not be able to keep the pound Sterling as it's currency
FACT.... Scotland at present has no current Currency Plans post independents
FACT.... Property Prices will crash in Scotland post independent, leaving millions with negative equity
FACT.... Border control restriction on immigration as a truly Independent Scotland would not be part of the EU
FACT.... Big businesses and banks have already stood up and said they will leave Scotland on a yes verdict

How can you honestly vote yes under those conditions?

Korg.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: Xeven
Seems presumptuous of any separate Scotland to expect a separate UK to respect what you claim as Scottish waters. I would not, especially seeing as your not in NATO, not in the EU, really have no military to to force your will, no allies, no protectorate agreements, no Satellite or communications network beyond your island, no foreign holdings. UK could claim the waters as their own and the world would probably respect that. USA, Russia, China and India have no reason to side with Scotland.

Got nothing really.

Really...Every foreign country i have ever visited and every national of that particular country i have had the pleasure of speaking to detest England with a passion...Us on the other hand are actually loved and respected the World over.

I'm Sure Vlad will loan us a few quid for a favour or two...Also, we have already struck extensive trade deals with China and have been dealing with the US both exports and imports successfully for years and years...

This says it all doesn't it.....

You say you want interdependence.... yet you would pin hopes on Russia to dig you out of the rat hole you would make for yourselves?

I might add that if this ever came to pass, it would be true Economic war and Scotland would be in even a worse mess than it is at present!

Korg.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

Perhaps this is because there are more people in here with sense to speak up against the preposterous Idea of holding a referendum on something based upon emotion as opposed to raw hard facts!

A bunch of ne'er do wells and ill wishers more like. I would take my heart over my head any day. The future might be difficult but it also is bright. Tomorrow will decide...

A new Scotland will not be member of any international bodies and the continuing UK will screw them in any deal it can after independence, including as much oil revenue as it can force from it. What could Scotland do?

Cry to the UN? The UN has only as much influence as the troops member countries provide. The UK and US regularly breach UN law when dealing with foreign countries, because they are pretty untouchable. I see no difference with a foreign Scotland, politics is politics.

Cry to NATO? ...ah that's right, won't be members.

Cry to the EU? ...ah, have to be a member to get access to European law, fail again.

Start a trade war or rattle sabres? Not a chance of Scotland winning that one, outnumbered, outfunded, better connected/networked internationally...nope, in any deals the UK will screw Scotland harshly, and if anyone thinks different they are in for a surprise.

originally posted by: nonspecific
It would be interesting times if Scotland became friendly with Russia and allowed them to set up Military bases in an Independant Scotland.

Militarily it would make no difference as war not about feet on the ground anymore.

However if there were any economic ties that can be seen as war bi proxy, it would be a very bad time to be in scotland!

Korg.

originally posted by: Fromabove

originally posted by: Xeven
Will an independant Scotland be part of NATO, UN, EU and other treatise. Have a Military? Queen, NATO and EU won't be Obliged to provide them defense or anything really.

Scary world to jump out into all alone.

An independent Scotland will not be the enemy of England but the friend. They will always work together for the same reasons. They will probably have some type of national alliance as do all of the former commonwealth of nations do that were once under the Crown.

What will be different is that Scotland will be able to decide it's own immigration policy apart from the disaster that England has made of theirs. And they will be able to decide on things unique and local to the people of Scotland.

Scotland is a minority to Britain, about 8% of the population. They have little say on what goes on in their own nation. It was called the "United Kingdom" for a reason, but it became something else as of late.

Whatever they decide. I wish them well. To give an idea on how close it is, I am friends with a Scottish family living here in the US, and their vote went like this. 3 for independence and 3 against. It divided the family in half. It promises to be a squeaker but in the end the secessionists will have the victory and Scotland will be free and independent.

No matter how it turns out, it will be fine, just fine.

Geeze talk about being in Denial!

Sorry but after you walk away from the Union we will not be friends!

Korg.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

Korg, would I be right in saying that you're a dissatisfied Brit? As an Irishman part of me would love to see a good chunk of the Isle fall off. But to tell you the truth either way it won't matter. Many divorced couples learn to share the kids and get along.

The Brits took upon themselves too much power leaving the Scot minority scraps. So at best they will go it their own way, and if not the Brits will have to learn to play nice and share their toys.

Even now there is talk of power sharing with the Scots.