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Astonishing Quote from John Wesley on Rome as the Beast of Babylon

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posted on Sep, 15 2014 @ 06:32 PM
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This is an astonishing quote from John Wesley 1703-1791. He clearly identifies the Beast of Revelation as the Roman Papacy. Each of us will likely see this system of commerce destroyed before our eyes. Read John 21 where Jesus asks Peter (Rome) if he loves him. He asks three times, each time representing 1000 years for Christ to raise the temple. If he loved Christ, he would feed the sheep. They have wealth untold, yet fund wars and live as kings. I assume Peter will deny Christ the third time.

LINK

Revelation 13

"1. And I stood on the sand of the sea - This also was in the vision. And I saw - Soon after the woman flew away. A wild beast coming up - He comes up twice; first from the sea, then from the abyss. He comes from the sea before the seven phials; "the great whore" comes after them.

O reader, this is a subject wherein we also are deeply concerned, and which must be treated, not as a point of curiosity, but as a solemn warning from God! The danger is near. Be armed both against force and fraud, even with the whole armour of God. Out of the sea - That is, Europe. So the three woes (the first being in Persia, the second about the Euphrates) move in a line from east to west. This beast is the Romish Papacy, as it came to a point six hundred years since, stands now, and will for some time longer. To this, and no other power on earth, agrees the whole text, and every part of it in every point; as we may see, with the utmost evidence, from the propositions following: - PROP. 1. It is one and the same beast, having seven heads, and ten horns, which is described in this and in the seventeenth chapter. Of consequence, his heads are the same, and his horns also. PROP. 2. This beast is a spiritually secular power, opposite to the kingdom of Christ. A power not merely spiritual or ecclesiastical, nor merely secular or political but a mixture of both. He is a secular prince; for a crown, yea, and a kingdom are ascribed to him. And yet he is not merely secular; for he is also a false prophet. PROP. 3. The beast has a strict connection with the city of Rome. This clearly appears from the seventeenth chapter. PROP. 4. The beast is now existing. He is not past. for Rome is now existing; and it is not till after the destruction of Rome that the beast is thrown into the lake. He is not altogether to come: for the second woe is long since past, after which the third came quickly; and presently after it began, the beast rose out of the sea. Therefore, whatever he is, he is now existing. PROP. 5. The beast is the Romish Papacy. This manifestly follows from the third and fourth propositions; the beast has a strict connection with the city of Rome; and the beast is now existing: therefore, either there is some other power more strictly connected with that city, or the Pope is the beast. PROP. 6. The Papacy, or papal kingdom, began long ago. The most remarkable particulars relating to this are here subjoined; taken so high as abundantly to show the rise of the beast, and brought down as low as our own time, in order to throw a light on the following part of the prophecy:"


edit on 15-9-2014 by AlephBet because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 15 2014 @ 07:43 PM
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Have you watched .Mystery Babylon (what they don't want you to know) it's a 70 min video. But packed full of information.

I'm on my phone so can't post the video



posted on Sep, 15 2014 @ 07:52 PM
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a reply to: GallopingFish

Have not seen it, but I will watch...


edit on 15-9-2014 by AlephBet because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 15 2014 @ 09:01 PM
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A lot of people have proposed The Catholic Church as the Beast.
Interestingly it was wounded by Napoleon, losing its sovereignty then regaining it by the next Century. The See is a political power that sits at the UN, a prophetic entity said to represent Christ by blasphemously usurping Christ's place as mediator between man and God. Christ said through Him is the only path to God but The Church says hold on that is such a good idea that only through The Church can Man reach the mediator Christ to get to God.

The Beast came up twice, from the sea of Nations when Rome made it the official religion of the empire, then from the Abyss after Napoleon vanquished it, as if miraculously healed.



posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 01:33 AM
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a reply to: AlephBet
The problem is that the same people who want to identify the Papacy as the Beast also want to identify them as the Harlot (which goes back, I think, to Luther).
But the Beast and the Harlot are clearly two different specimens. At the beginning of ch17, the Harlot rests on the support of the Beast. At the end of the chapter, the Beast is hostile to the Harlot and tearing her apart.
The Papacy cannot possibly be both, so choose one or the other.
To me, the Beast is the secular regime dominating the world at that time, and wanting to control religion as much as it controls everything else.

Your quotation suggests that Wesley might be the originator of the careless reading which confuses the two.


edit on 16-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 04:12 AM
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a reply to: AlephBet

I hadn't read this before... but I suggest the following, based on what the Bibles says:

In context, These three WOES run concurrently with the last three blasts of the 7 Trumpets. Revelation 8:13 And I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, crying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling upon the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound!”

The next / 5th Trumpet and 1st Woe is the Locusts, that bite only people who do not bear the mark of God and the pain tortures those who were bitten for five months. Revelation 9:12 The first woe is past. See, two woes are still coming after this.

The 6th Trumpet and the 2nd Woe is after the Tribulation, when the Two Witnesses have been killed and their bodies left in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days, before God takes them up to Heaven. Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past, and see, the third woe is coming speedily.

The 7th and last Trumpet which is the 3rd and final Woe is when the Wrath of God is taken out on the earth and those who remain. Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past, and see, the third woe is coming speedily. The next verse says in Revelation 11:15 And the seventh messenger sounded, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

and in Revelation 11:19 And the Temple of Elohim was opened in Heaven, and the Ark of His Covenant was seen in His Temple. And there came to be lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This last verse is describing the Wrath of God being vented on the Earth and is also described in the last of the 7 Seals as described in Revelation 8:5 'And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.'

And again this events is also the last of the 7 Bowls in Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his Bowl into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Revelation 16:18 goes on: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

This indicates that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls all run concurrently, although maybe at different intervals, but their endings are exactly the same!

And these are the Woes that befall men who do not believe in and/or worship the Almighty God and who have martyred the Elect / Saints of God.

The Whore of Babylon depicts extreme 'Wickedness' which rides / controls that organisation called the Scarlet Beast, which is the Satanic equivalent of the Body of the Messiah. The Seven Heads are the seven crowned sovereigns of that organisation, and the eighth is the 'Eighth Head/King' of Revelation and also the 'Little Horn' of Daniel.

This organisation is religious, yet has its secular power from being a country - albeit the smallest one in the world, but it puts the Pope, as King and Head, on level par when dealing with non-Catholic monarchs and the 'heads' of other countries, such as Presidents and Prime Ministers.



posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 08:59 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: AlephBet
The problem is that the same people who want to identify the Papacy as the Beast also want to identify them as the Harlot (which goes back, I think, to Luther).
But the Beast and the Harlot are clearly two different specimens. At the beginning of ch17, the Harlot rests on the support of the Beast. At the end of the chapter, the Beast is hostile to the Harlot and tearing her apart.
The Papacy cannot possibly be both, so choose one or the other.
To me, the Beast is the secular regime dominating the world at that time, and wanting to control religion as much as it controls everything else.

Your quotation suggests that Wesley might be the originator of the careless reading which confuses the two.



If you read close, the 10 beasts are not yet crowned. The beast is an older order receiving power right at the end of the age. No sooner than the heads are crowned, they are then destroyed when the feet holding the entire thing up crumbles. Feet in the Bible generally refers to genitals. When Ruth sits at the feet of Boas, she is asking for more than just marriage (gleaning seed in the field). She is joined with the seed of the Guardian Redeemer.

Back to Babylon: Two things are joined here. Religion and government. This is the fourth beast of Daniel. Daniel sees a smiting stone come and destroy the feet of the statue. It destroys the whole statue. Why? They are joined to the seed of the harlot, or the Guardian Cherub that fell in Ezekiel 28.

Connect this to Jesus entering the temple and overturning the tables of the moneychangers (flipping over to debt) and the peacemakers having no more funding to purchase peace. This is what destroys Babylon. The thing the relied on (wealth) fails them. The mark of a thief is when debt rears it's ugly head. The stone is heavy and becomes a burden from the top down.

Who are the moneychangers of the world? Who are the experts in the law for the most part (lawyers)? Who do the peacemakers try to make peace for in this world? The Harlot.

When Jesus died on the cross, he was cutting the marriage certificate with the first bride by death. The new Bride becomes the Church, made up of anyone in humanity that would join the new body. The Harlot was Israel, or the one that lost their first groom. A divorce certificate was not enough. It had to be death to make it legal.

The Harlot then joined the beast (Babylon). What is it that Moses said to Israel? Come out of Egypt (Mystery Religion). Why were they in captivity to Babylon for so long? Didn't God bring them out? Will he again?

He is asking them to come out of Egypt and Babylon. Those who do will be saved. There are many Christians in Israel today. A remnant will inherit the land. All of this centers on Masonry. They are the builders that reject the Chief Cornerstone. Instead, they worship the capstone (Top). They should have looked at what holds up the foundation.

The Beast Rules from Rome. The Moneychangers and Experts in the Law have joined Rome with the New World Order. The two witnesses are Israel (Christians) and the USA. When 70 million fled Europe to escape the Church, the reformed church became the witness to the false church. The false church was mixed iron and clay. The two witnesses then arrive when Israel becomes a nation once again. The witnesses are killed, then rise again to the astonishment of the beast. Abaddon is the Father (Ab) of Adon (Lucifer). There must be a mirror to Christ. All Electrons (+) have a Proton (+) mirror. Hydrogen has one proton and one electron. No Neutron. Elements are formed from the Neutron and Proton (Strong Force), which follows invariant symmetry laws. Electrons do not follow the law. From this root, the image then follows to everything. Christ has a false Christ. It cannot be any other way. Who is with the true Christ? The + with the Neutron (Strong House). Father in Hebrew is Aleph Bet (Father). Adonai is Christ (right). Adon is Lucifer (Rome). Jesus told Peter to fish on the right side of the boat. He choose the left later in his life. He made himself a prince and was dressed instead of dressing himself.

John 21
6 He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.

Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

Who did Jesus say would be alive until he returns?

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

The testimony of John in his Gospel, the three epistles (1 John, 2 John 3 John) and Revelation are true. As for Paul, there are many who say his writings are the ones Jesus warned about. Paul may have been the one coming in his own name (apostle to the Gentiles / uncircumcised). Peter was the apostle to the circumcised. John was the true message if we take it this way. I am still working on this idea and may eventually determine this to be the case for myself. I won't make that decision until I review if further. By this view, we see Peter and Paul as the antichrist and false prophet. When Jesus said, "Get behind me Satan," he was referring to the Catholic Church founded on Peter. I already know this to be the case. Read John 21 to see this outlined over 3 days (three thousand years).

I go to a Baptist Church. Who was Elijah, come to baptize for repentance of sins? John 3 tells it like it is. The WHOLE world, but only if they believe (faith). Simply see the story and believe. That's the entire gospel. As a byproduct, your spirit will start giving and stop taking. 1 John is then what accomplishes this: Love. The only law.




posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 09:23 AM
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a reply to: AlephBet
I don't think you've answered my point that the Beast and the Harlot (within ch17) are two distinct entities which end up in conflict wit each other.
Therefore one institution cannot be both of them.
How exactly does ch17 v16 work if the Beast and the Harlot are the same thing?



posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 11:33 AM
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a reply to: Maigret

Interesting perspective. I'll research it. There is one hidden aspect to this that most people do not consider. If we view the Bible as a document educating the Son of God, then who is the judge at the right hand of God? The Son. Who is the Lord of the OT? The one that created Adam...

Luke 3

37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,

the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,

the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,

the son of Seth, the son of Adam,

the son of God.

The Son of God created Adam, which is YHVH in the OT. As we see the son progress in his judgments against mankind, we finally see the risen Son of God forgiving enemies and proclaiming the truth, which is the Holy Spirit (love for others). This is our example of a Son who grows up from the child. The OT Lord and the risen savior are the same person, but changed by the story. We will all be changed by this story by example of the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit. He will forgive his enemies. If not, he goes against his own words.

We can exclude the entire OT judgment for this new Son of God with the Holy Spirit as the dove of peace. As the Son of God (body/church) below is about to be sacrificed on the altar of fire here on Earth, what happens?

Issac lives and a ram is caught in the thicket. This is the surprise ending that we can expect. Who is the Ram?

Not the body of Christ (mankind). No. The ram is the one you want to find. Once you do, you know what will be judged. The same thorn bush that revealed the fire of God is the same one that was placed on the head of Christ. The whirlwind is in the thorntree.

The first will be last and the last first. Who was the first in the garden? Not Adam. Check Ezekiel 28. The last Adam is the Redeemer. Pride puts you first. Humility puts you last. Abraham gave Lot the good land. Where did that get Lot? Was Lot saved? How about his wife?




edit on 16-9-2014 by AlephBet because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 11:51 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: AlephBet
I don't think you've answered my point that the Beast and the Harlot (within ch17) are two distinct entities which end up in conflict wit each other.
Therefore one institution cannot be both of them.
How exactly does ch17 v16 work if the Beast and the Harlot are the same thing?



The same struggle we all face to free ourselves of sin is the same struggle above and below. The harlot is lots wife. Eve fell, but Mary was the virgin that leads to the Holy Spirit. Who tricked Eve?

Adam to Abraham is 2 days (2000 years) and the age of the Father.

Issac to Jesus is 2 days and the age of the Son.

Mary to this day is the age of the Holy Spirit (2 Days).

Man was born on the sixth day. The seventh is rest. Jesus reigns on the seventh day.

Just as Satan is sent to the abyss to reveal the Son of God, so the Holy Spirit rises from matter / mater / matrix as the womb of the new man. The sixth day is the rising of the third member of the Trinity. Aleph Mem is the Mother bearing the children.

Luke 7

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

Wisdom is Sophia. Like all things that are true, there is a counterfeit that is copied. The Gnostics copied the truth of Sophia and made her the harlot. Just as Jesus is the true image, so the false image is seen. It's the true image we want to abide in. Blasphemy is making the false image of the Holy Spirit for men to worship. This is unforgivable. They are the builders who rejected truth. They can still repent, but not if they willingly made the error of blasphemy. There are many masons who have no idea what they are into.

The Holy Spirit has always been holy. She carries the Savior.

Who has made the Word of God the harlot? Rome / Mystery Religions. Mystery Babylon is the one making truth a harlot.

There is no harlot. She is the Holy Spirit, the mother of the process.

Aleph Bet is Father (Letters / DNA) Aleph Bet means Strong House.

Aleph Mem is Mother (mater in Latin). Aleph Mem means Strong Water. Where do the letters of God enter? The cup. What do you make with seed? Bread.

Bet Nun is Hebrew for Son, or House of Seed. He is the bread of life. The house of seed. The Son of God.

The truth is in the Word. The Masons call it the lost Word. I think they are the only ones who lost it.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

John came as a witness to the light, which is baptism for the remission of sins. You must be born again (involution and evolution).

Who bears the child? Not a harlot. This is the conclusion of the Mystery Religion. They also call God a Demiurge. The letters (Aleph Bet / Father) show the truth of the Son (Word). DNA is the seed, or what makes bread.

Just as there is no Satan after he is finally put in the Abyss, so too there is no Harlot. She is shown in truth to be the mother of the Son.

Again, truth is on the right and error on the left. Error is not true. This is why it is error. The Bible shows us what is true in an image of both.

See My First Thread on the Letters of the Trinity

The Masons have a Christ that is the mirror of truth. Why? They have mistaken the truth for the wrong side of the image. It's a mirror. You must find the side that is faced the right way. Right. Not Left.

God said to come out of Egypt. Instead, they made the phallic symbol of the obelisk their idol. The seed is in the word. The Word is Christ.

Who impregnated Mary? The Holy Spirit of the Father. Both Father and Mother are necessary to make a Son. Again, the harlot is what they made of the Spirit of God.




edit on 16-9-2014 by AlephBet because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 07:26 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: AlephBet
I don't think you've answered my point that the Beast and the Harlot (within ch17) are two distinct entities which end up in conflict wit each other.
Therefore one institution cannot be both of them.
How exactly does ch17 v16 work if the Beast and the Harlot are the same thing?



It depends on how you read and understand those verses.

Rev 17:16 'And 'And the ten horns which you saw on the Beast, these shall hate the Whore, and lay her waste and naked, and eat her flesh and burn her with fire.'

Those ten horns are: (Rev 17:12) “And the ten horns which you saw are ten sovereigns who have not yet received a reign, but receive authority as sovereigns with the Beast for one hour. (Rev 17:13) “They have one mind, and they shall give their power and authority to the Beast.'

Just to clarify: the Whore woman is wickedness personified, in the form of the Palace, the Scarlet Beast is the Body of that church, which has seven heads - and the seven heads are the consecutive Popes... during the reign of the Eighth Head/Pope/Antichrist, the leaders of ten secular nations will lead their countries to fight against the Messiah and his followers at Armageddon.

It is once these ten nations realise how badly they have been deceived that they will turn on the Whore and everything that stands for her - e.g. the Vatican Palace! Revelation 17:18 “And the [scarlet whore] woman whom you saw is that great city having sovereignty over the sovereigns of the earth.”



posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 07:47 PM
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a reply to: AlephBet

From this genealogy you quoted; Seth is the son of Adam, and Adam is the son of God / YHWH. It doesn't mean the Son of God begat Adam... not in my book anyways, so I can't follow the thread of thought.

And I fail to understand the reasoning behind the idea that the OT part of the Bible was to educate the Son. Can you explain where this idea comes from?



posted on Sep, 16 2014 @ 08:27 PM
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originally posted by: Maigret
a reply to: AlephBet

From this genealogy you quoted; Seth is the son of Adam, and Adam is the son of God / YHWH. It doesn't mean the Son of God begat Adam... not in my book anyways, so I can't follow the thread of thought.

And I fail to understand the reasoning behind the idea that the OT part of the Bible was to educate the Son. Can you explain where this idea comes from?


I reasoned this once. The key is reading Genesis 2. Who formed Adam? Who formed in Genesis 1? Note the names. Note the two creations. Notice that no fruit was restricted in genesis 1. There was no garden in Genesis 1. Man was BOTH male and female. Only in Genesis 2 do we see the splitting of the female from the male. The fruit is restricted and there is a garden.

I could go either way on this, but I lean toward the Son of God being the one that came before Adam. Why? Adam was not born, but formed.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

There are many texts that call the Son the Cosmos. If we take Adam as the Son of God, then he is also the savior, which is what I have said all along, but I note this by the fact that YHVH is not Elohim. Of course, there are those that call YHVH, "My Elohim," but this is not what Jesus, the Son of God called God. He called him Eli on the cross. YHVH is not Eli. Genesis 1 Elohim is us and not I. Let 'us' make man in 'our' image.

YHVH is singular. YHVH also proclaimed that there was no other god beside him, yet clearly, Elohim is not singular. The Son of God in the OT is likely the Son being raised to Christ. Only in the first century do we see God say that he is, "Well pleased."

We also note that Jesus claims to be taught by the Father. YHVH is never mentioned in the NT.


edit on 16-9-2014 by AlephBet because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2014 @ 02:05 AM
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a reply to: Maigret
You have ignored one of the statements about the ten horns;
"They AND THE BEAST will hate the Harlot" (v16)
If it is stated that the Beast hates the Harlot, then the Beast and the Harlot must be two different entities.
At the beginning of the chapter the Harlot sits upon the Beast- the mainly religious power rests upon the support of the current secular power (which has been true many times in history).
At the end of the chapter the Beast attacks the Harlot- the evil secular power turns against the evil religious power. There is a grand "falling out amongst thieves".
The Beast and the Harlot CANNOT be the same institution.

Incidentally, you mustn't make the mistake of assuming that the events of v16 necessarily come after the events of v14.
v14 is in the middle of a paragraph about the ten kings, which takes them to the end of their story.
vv15-18 form a separate paragraph about the Harlot, and it is parallel to, not following on from, the previous paragraph.
The arangement is thematic, not chronological.
The actual events of v16 should probably be placed (in time) between v13 and v14.

P.S. I see that you are using a different translation of v16.
"AND the Beast" is in the best Greek manuscripts and all the modern translations and editions of the Greek text that I've seen.



edit on 17-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:16 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

I think either you're misreading my post, or I wasn't clear enough.

The Whore, wearing scarlet and purple [!] is the ultimate prostitute with regard to religion, taking on aspects of various pagan idols/gods and adding them into a very unspiritual mix. This is the wickedness! And it is directly against God in subverting His people!

The Scarlet Beast is the body, just as the Body of Christ is, made up of people or worshippers.

This Beast has seven heads or kings, who are the consecutive leaders of this body - as indicated by 5 have fallen / died, one is, and one is to come for a little while.

And ten horns or powers, are the 10 different countries, or nations, of the world, in a secular sense.

With the armies gathered at Armageddon [for a reason I still haven't been able to learn yet], this is when the Son will return and with the sword of his mouth will destroy all there.

Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet will have been taken, and the rest of their armies will all be dead, with the eagles and vultures feeding off their flesh. [Compare Matthew 24:27 & 28, with Revelation 17:14 and 19:21]

So it is only after Armageddon that the truth will be self-evident, and that is when the ten horns or heads of those secular nations will turn, and the only thing left standing to destroy will be the City/Palace - and it only takes them one hour to do it too.

They will turn, because the very thing they thought they were fighting for, is what they were actually fighting against, and they will know they have lost their salvation and eternal life, through Satan using the wickedness of the Whore to deceive and defile them.

Don't underestimate the secular power or clout of that religious organisation. Although the country is the smallest in the world, it has the largest number of 'citizens'.

P.S. I use the RAV Bible, but the KJV and The Scriptures 1998 all have 'on' for Revelation 17:16 - not 'and'. Is this the verse you meant? (Not that it makes any difference, once you see how the different elements work.)









edit on 19/9/2014 by Maigret because: Clarification



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:25 AM
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originally posted by: Maigret
So it is only after Armageddon that the truth will be self-evident, and that is when the ten horns or heads of those secular nations will turn, and the only thing left standing to destroy will be the City/Palace - and it only takes them one hour to do it too.

You are still assuming that v16 (destuction of Harlot) comes after v14 (final destruction of Beast). I tried to explain why this is a mistake.
That half of the chapter is not in chronological order. There is a paragraph about the kings, ending in v14, and a parallel paragraph about the Harlot.
The actual sequence of events in time is v13 (kings put themselves under Beast), v16 (kings and Beast destroy Harlot), v14 (Christ destroys Beast).
The destruction of the Harlot does not come after Armageddon because NOTHING in the course of ordinary human history comes after Armageddon. The return of Christ brings all that to an end.


P.S. I use the RAV Bible, but the KJV and The Scriptures 1998 all have 'on' for Revelation 17:16 - not 'and'. Is this the verse you meant?

The published Greek texts have KAI, which means "and". "On" is a bad manuscript reading which modern translations don't use. And even if they were merely "on" the Beast, they could hardly attack the Harlot without dragging the Beast along at the same time. If you find yourself being charged by the horns of a bull, it's a good bet that the rest of the bull is only an inch behind them! Horns don't attack on their own!
The point is that if the Beast is attacking the Harlot, the Beast and the Harlot CANNOT be the same thing. They must be separated.
Have a re-think about this.





edit on 19-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 12:14 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

In your version, the Nuremburg Trials would come before the final end of WWII.

By inserting Rev 17:16 in between verses 13 & 14, you have:
Verse 13 The 10 Horns being of one mind and giving their power and authority to the Beast of the Eighth Head,
Verse 16 and those same 10 Horns turning destructively on the Whore,
Verse 14 And then those 10 Horns making war on the Lamb and those with him.

But it is the wickedness and the deceit of the Whore that causes those 10 horns to make war against the Lamb!

In my version, I have:
Verse 13 The 10 horns provide the Eighth Head with their power and authority over their armed forces / armies,

Verse 14 To fight at Armageddon; where their armies are destroyed, Satan is taken captive, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, and their armies destroyed.

Verse 15 To all the peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues; the wickedness of the Whore is clearly exposed, and openly seen for what it is. The exposure of that deceit will ensure that it done away with, and so it can't be used again with any effectiveness. This is the destruction of the wickedness of the Whore.

Verse 16 So those who have been deceived will take revenge in the only way left to them in their anger, and that is to destroy the palace /city [headquarters] of their former leader/s.

Then God's Wrath against the world will be unleashed...

Whether the destruction of that 'great city' is done by the heads of those secular nations and / or the members of the Scarlet body of the Beast is immaterial, as it could be done by either, or both. Your version states both, which mine doesn't - but that's not the point.

You attempt to insist that your Bible versions are better than mine, but yours have you chasing up the wrong tree, about what exactly is going to happen, how and why!



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 12:49 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Maigret
So it is only after Armageddon that the truth will be self-evident, and that is when the ten horns or heads of those secular nations will turn, and the only thing left standing to destroy will be the City/Palace - and it only takes them one hour to do it too.

You are still assuming that v16 (destuction of Harlot) comes after v14 (final destruction of Beast). I tried to explain why this is a mistake.
That half of the chapter is not in chronological order. There is a paragraph about the kings, ending in v14, and a parallel paragraph about the Harlot.
The actual sequence of events in time is v13 (kings put themselves under Beast), v16 (kings and Beast destroy Harlot), v14 (Christ destroys Beast).
The destruction of the Harlot does not come after Armageddon because NOTHING in the course of ordinary human history comes after Armageddon. The return of Christ brings all that to an end.



Another way to see this is through Matthew Chapter 24, in which Yeshua gives the whole outlay of future events. In Matthew 24:27-30

Mat 24:27 For as For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. = return of the Son

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. = Aftermath of Armageddon Compare Revelation 19:21

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: = start of Cosmic disturbances as a result of God's Wrath being vented on the world

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. = opening of the Heavens like a scroll, to reveal the Temple of God and the Ark of the Covenant and the Son seen by everyone on the earth.



edit on 20/9/2014 by Maigret because: Clarification added



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 09:11 AM
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originally posted by: Maigret
In your version, the Nuremburg Trials would come before the final end of WWII.

For that matter, in your version Hitler would be attacking Russia after he had committed suicide in the bunker.
v14 is when the Beast and its horns come to an end, crushed by the power of the Lamb.
This makes it impossible for them to come out afterwards and attack the Harlot.


By inserting Rev 17:16 in between verses 13 & 14, you have:
Verse 13 The 10 Horns being of one mind and giving their power and authority to the Beast of the Eighth Head,
Verse 16 and those same 10 Horns turning destructively on the Whore,
Verse 14 And then those 10 Horns making war on the Lamb and those with him.

This is a perfectly reasonable sequence of events, because it means that the horns are not trying to attack the Harlot after they have ceased to exist.

The idea of things being described by themes, instead of in chronological order, is not so difficult to understand.
Somebody might decide to do a summary of the Second World War, not in chronological order but treating the different theatres of war one by one.
If he chose to describe the war with Japan before the war in Europe (because the war with Japan began first, from the American viewpoint), then the effect would be that the dropping of the Atom bombs would be mentioned before the Normandy landings, even though we all know that the Normandy landings came first in time.

You are obliged to distinguish between Armageddon in v14 and God's wrath aganst the nations after v16, and fail to realise that Armageddon and God's wrath against the nations are THE SAME THING.
They are both Revelation ch19 vv11-16.
The verses down to ch17 v14 are one aspect of the history leading up to this event.
The following verses are another aspect (focussing on the Harlot) of the same history.


You attempt to insist that your Bible versions are better than mine

No, my claim is that the Greek text which everybody is using in modern times is better than the one which was developed before there was a proper understanding of manuscript traditions.
I could challenge you to find any good Greek manuscript giving EPI ("on") instead of KAI ("and"),but I will set you an easier task.
Go to the shops which sell printed editions of the Greek New Testament and see if you can find a single copy which does not have KAI ("and") as the text.


edit on 20-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 07:17 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

When you identify these Beasts and Horns, you will 'get' the sequence of events!

The 10 Horns are TPTB and they will bring about the destruction of the Vatican. The people who comprise the Body of the Scarlet Beast would only get in the way of this destruction... unless TPTB are willing to destroy these hapless victims as well.

That is why I believe my versions of the Bible, but as I said it is really immaterial, because if it is 'AND' as you say, then these victims would be counted as 'collateral damage' by TPTB. And anyway, time will tell which version eventuates.

Armageddon and the Wrath of God can't be the same thing, because Armageddon is where the armies are gathered to do battle against the Son of God - and lose!

And God's Wrath is when nature's destructive forces are used by God, in massive earthquake and volcanic activity to destroy the face of the Earth and all on it; so that there is hail of molten lava, clouds of ash, lightning, thundering rumbles and noises, and earthquakes that change geological features so that recognisable islands and mountains no longer exist.




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