Russia targets the Baltic states, NATO warns Russia (round 2)

a reply to: bjarneorn

No he never provided evidence. The UN has requested time and again for Russia to submit the evidence to support their claims and thus far they never have. Even the supposed letter from Yanukovych asking Russia to invade Ukraine was never submitted to the UN. Amb. Churkin talked about it but stated he did have it with him.

a reply to: Tapping123

You guys really need to learn what BRICS is and how it works. The manner in which you guys throw it around only reinforces the belief you have on clue.

Economic sanctions against Russia occurred after they invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea. Each time sanctions were expanded the Russians were told the same thing - Stop what you are doing and leave Ukraine and the sanctions can go away.

Prior to Russian actions there were no economic issues present with Russia.

originally posted by: bjarneorn

originally posted by: Xcathdra
How is that forced relocation of Tartar's from Crimea going for Putin?
How many gay people have been arrested and charged in Russia for just being gay?

I agree with you here ... but this isn't the Ukraine problem. This is an entirely different situation ... and to be honest, I don't think Putin is going to stay in power for long. But whatever Putin does, does not excuse or justify neo-nazis in Ukraine. It just doesn't ... one must be viewed, separate from the other.

Let's hope that Russians will put a balance into their power structure, soon.

Nothing excuses the intentional and misleading manner in which you are referring to anyone in Ukraine not pro Russian as a Nazi either.

You have bought into Putin's propaganda with the NAZI bs hook line and sinker.

Viewed separately from the other? lololol

a reply to: kitzik

Not gained independence... REGAINED independence.

There is a difference, even more so when your country is occupied by Russia for 50 + years.

Secondly please cite examples of Russian discrimination in the Baltic's and please link to your sources for the info you use.


finally I think you need to read Russia's law on citizenship and language requirements before you start setting in on other nations requirements while stating how bad they are.

originally posted by: Melbourne_Militia
Heres a wild theory I just came up with.....

What if, the ISIS threat is an excuse to co-ordinate a large internation coalition, pour huge amounts of troops and equipment into Iraq, so that Iraq become the "forward operating base" for an upcoming invasion of Russia?

From Iraq, the coalition will pour northwards, and Eastwards from Europe.

Even thou Putin would be wary of any international military buildup in Iraq, I doubt he would expect the real aim to be Russia.

Seriously?

a reply to: DJW001

Would it not be easier to just send American military units the 50 miles across the bearing straight and invade that way?

www.interpretermag.com...

We consider the well-known measures taken by the Latvian and Estonian governments aimed at reducing the status and position of the Russian language to be a gross violation of fundamental, universal norms in the realm of human rights. The official declaration from Riga that a Russian school that has existed on Latvian soil since 1789 must be completely liquidated by 2018 is unacceptable to the civilized world.

“The international community must decisively prevent the further gross restriction of the rights of the Russian-speaking population of the Baltic countries and the worsening of already alarmingly politicized Russophobia.

The question is if Kremlin will go via diplomatic channels or send in the Little Green Men. It is good though, that Russia is standing up against Neo-Nazis and ill treatment of Russian minorities.

a reply to: Xcathdra

finally I think you need to read Russia's law on citizenship and language requirements before you start setting in on other nations requirements while stating how bad they are.

I'm not going to apply for Russian citizenship, I'm more concerned about modern Latvia. Especially concerning their glorification of some "dubious heroes".

The head of Latvia’s anti-fascist committee, Joseph Koren, says he knows Riga like the back of his hand. But he was astonished to find that Voldemars Veiss was laid to rest among heroic soldiers who died fighting for their motherland.

He says Veiss was one of the key figures responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews during WW2 Koren says it’s outrage that he’s buried at Riga's most prestigious war cemetery.

“This is the most honourary place where school children are brought to learn what patriotism is. Unfortunately, in 1944 a person who cannot be called a hero was buried here. This is against all international and European canons. He is neither a hero, nor a man of honour, but a monster,” Koren says.

But Voldemars Veiss is not the only controversial figure at this landmark war cemetery where over 2,000 people who fought against Nazis are commemorated.

Four years ago a memorial plaque to Italian fascist Benito Mussolini was put up there.

youtu.be...

So, Mussolini is Latvian NATIONAL HERO because he was awarded some Latvian medal in 1924. And they even building new plaques in 21-st century !
Unlike many people here I know that Latvia wasn't democratic state but for the most part of 1930-ties it was almost fascistic state.
We can argue if he was true fascist, but dictator he was. Personally in my home I had multiple items with swastikas (cards, jewelry etc) made during his rule.

Ulmanis as Prime Minister dissolved the Saeima (Parliament) and established executive non-parliamentary authoritarian rule. Several officers from the Army and units of the national guard (Latvian: Aizsargi) loyal to Ulmanis moved against key government offices, communications and transportation facilities. Many elected officials were illegally detained, as were any military officers that resisted the coup d'etat.All political parties, including his own "Farmers' Union", were outlawed. Part of the constitution of the Latvian Republic and civil liberties were suspended. All newspapers owned by political parties or organisations were closed. Some 2,000 Social Democrats were initially detained by the authorities, including most of the Social Democratic members of the disbanded Saeima, as were members of various right-wing radical organisations, such as Pērkonkrusts. In all, 369 Social Democrats, 95 members of Pērkonkrusts, pro-Nazi activists from the Baltic German community, and a handful of politicians from other parties were interned in a prison camp established in the Karosta district of Liepāja. After several Social Democrats, such as Bruno Kalniņš, had been cleared of weapons charges by the courts, most of those imprisoned began to be released over time.[1] Those convicted by the courts of treasonous acts, such as Gustavs Celmiņš, remained behind bars for the duration of their sentences, three years in the case of Celmiņš.

Ideologically he was close to Mussolini, no wonder they commemorate Mussolini today.

originally posted by: victor7
It is good though, that Russia is standing up against Neo-Nazis and ill treatment of Russian minorities.

So the Baltic states are run by Neo nazis now?

Secondly how are they being mistreated?

I want to ask a question: what can Latvia or Estonia do against Russia realistically??

Any intelligent answer is welcome.

I can offer you some clue - even if NATO forces are stationed in these two countries, such forces will be sitting ducks to Russian artillery fire in case of war. No airfield will survive beyond the first day of war.

As for NATO and EU, people should begin to worry about growing rift between Germany and France.

The Russian factor is at the periphery. What about the heart of EU.

These tiny States are jumping up and down due to USA's support. We shall see how long that lasts.

It is important for European States to learn real-politic. An independent State must behave like an independent state other wise there is no meaning of the word State. Some of the post-USSR states are behaving like American rubber stamps. This will not work for long.

originally posted by: kitzik
I'm not going to apply for Russian citizenship, I'm more concerned about modern Latvia. Especially concerning their glorification of some "dubious heroes".

Which is not the question I asked, however your non answer answered the question. You refuse to look at it because it contains everything you are bitching about with the Baltic countries and Ukraine.

So, Mussolini is Latvian NATIONAL HERO because he was awarded some Latvian medal in 1924. And they even building new plaques in 21-st century !

Like Stalins statues in Russia?


Stalin
Many at Fallen Monument Park, Moscow, Russia[16]
Bust at his tomb in the Kremlin Wall Necropolis, Moscow, Russia[17]
Bust in the Museum of the Great Patriotic War, Moscow.[18]
Statue of Stalin along with Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill at the All-Russia Exhibition Center, Moscow, Russia[19]
A large Stalin statue stood at the All-Russia Exhibition Center until 1948.[20]
A bust stands at the Memorial of Glory in Vladikavkaz.[21]
A bust stands at School No. 2 in Ardon, North Ossetia.[22]
In Bryansk, there is a bust of Stalin in the Communist Party's regional headquarters.[23]
A bust of Stalin is in Kizel.
A statue is in Nogir, North Ossetia–Alania.[24]
A statue of Stalin is in the yard of School No.2, Ardon, North Ossetia–Alania.[25]
A bust of Stalin in the village of Chokh, Dagestan
A bust of Stalin at a square in Derbent, Dagestan

Or the several hundred statues of Lenin throughout Russia?


What you fail to grasp, once again, is Russia is just as guilty as the nations you are trying to call out.

Finally - Why is it just now that you perceive the Baltic states as "Nazi"? I always find it funny when a person all of a sudden has an issue with something that has existed for a few decades now.

So do you have issues with their government or do you have issues with them because Russia said so?

a reply to: Xcathdra

So the Baltic states are run by Neo nazis now

No, they run by inept nationalists that like to glorify the past even when it is not so glorious.

originally posted by: GargIndia
I want to ask a question: what can Latvia or Estonia do against Russia realistically??

Any intelligent answer is welcome.

I can offer you some clue - even if NATO forces are stationed in these two countries, such forces will be sitting ducks to Russian artillery fire in case of war. No airfield will survive beyond the first day of war.

Offensively - Absolutely nothing.

Its one of the main reasons why Putin has gone off the deep end.

As for NATO its a defensive alliance so in order for Russia to engage NATO forces they would have to attack NATO.

originally posted by: GargIndia
As for NATO and EU, people should begin to worry about growing rift between Germany and France.

The Russian factor is at the periphery. What about the heart of EU.

What rift?

originally posted by: stormcell
NATO has been nibbling away at the old USSR empire for the past decade or too, picking off countries one by one. Now Putin is pushing back or at least creating a buffer/chaos zone.

Baltic states worked hard themselves to not only join NATO, but also force NATO to prepare real defense plans for the Baltics, which NATO officials were very unwilling to make. Also, the people of these states very much support NATO presence, especially now.

a reply to: Xcathdra

So if there is no utility (as you said in offensive scenario), why are these States part of NATO? What kind of security Estonia or Latvia offer other NATO states?

I want a clear answer.

And you saying that NATO is a 'defensive' group is the biggest BS you are uttering. But we shall examine that later.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Stalin
Many at Fallen Monument Park, Moscow, Russia[16]
Bust at his tomb in the Kremlin Wall Necropolis, Moscow, Russia[17]
Bust in the Museum of the Great Patriotic War, Moscow.[18]
Statue of Stalin along with Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill at the All-Russia Exhibition Center, Moscow, Russia[19]
A large Stalin statue stood at the All-Russia Exhibition Center until 1948.[20]
A bust stands at the Memorial of Glory in Vladikavkaz.[21]
A bust stands at School No. 2 in Ardon, North Ossetia.[22]
In Bryansk, there is a bust of Stalin in the Communist Party's regional headquarters.[23]
A bust of Stalin is in Kizel.
A statue is in Nogir, North Ossetia–Alania.[24]
A statue of Stalin is in the yard of School No.2, Ardon, North Ossetia–Alania.[25]
A bust of Stalin in the village of Chokh, Dagestan
A bust of Stalin at a square in Derbent, Dagestan

They don't build it now. Also i don't have objectives if some Mussolini statues exist in Italy. But to build it in recent years is symbolical and it doesn't smell well.

Again, I'm not going to discuss with you what is going on in Russia their laws etc. I don't know them, they don't touch me, I don't touch them. Finito.

finally I think you need to read Russia's law on citizenship and language requirements before you start setting in on other nations requirements while stating how bad they are.

This is the last time I'm going to answer you. Don't suggest what I should read or I shouldn't.
I may reference to some of your posts, but I'm not going to have a discussion with you, forget about it.

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: Xcathdra

So if there is no utility (as you said in offensive scenario), why are these States part of NATO? What kind of security Estonia or Latvia offer other NATO states?

I want a clear answer.

And you saying that NATO is a 'defensive' group is the biggest BS you are uttering. But we shall examine that later.

For over 50 years Russia occupied the Baltic states. Once that occupation ended they were determined not to to relive it. The only way in doing that, based largely on the fact they could not defend against a Russian invasion, was to join NATO.

Joining NATO, being its a defensive alliance, relies on a defensive doctrine of an attack on one is an attack on all. So if Russia were to invade the Baltic's, the Baltic nations are guaranteed collective self defense with all NATO countries.

Finally - They are sovereign nations and can decide for themselves on who they want to do business with and who they don't.

NATO is a defensive alliance, and no amount of dismissal from you is going to change that fact.

originally posted by: kitzik
Again, I'm not going to discuss with you what is going on in Russia their laws etc. I don't know them, they don't touch me, I don't touch them. Finito.

That would be because you cannot defend the Russian law. The Russian law goes far beyond the floated legislation in Ukraine when this mess started.

What you are doing is showing your hypocrisy and willful ignorance on this specific issue. Why is that law important and how does it play into the Baltic issues?

RT - New citizenship shortcut for Russian-speakers of Soviet, Imperial ancestry

The program also can be applied to people without citizenship, which is the case for many ethnic Russians who live in the Baltic states but cannot obtain the citizenship and live under non-citizens status.

Click link for the the article.

Putin has also outlawed dual citizenship stating its "traitorous". The article illustrates Putins paranoia.

How about minorities living in Russia?
ITAR-TASS Labor migrants in Russia to be required by law to learn Russian

Labor Migrants Get Sneak Preview Of Russian History Test - 2014

Russian is the only official Federal language.

Russian lost its status in many of the new republics that arose following the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union. In Russia, however, the dominating status of the Russian language continued. Today, 97% of the public school students of Russia receive their education only or mostly in Russian, even though Russia is made up of approximately 80% ethnic Russians

As I stated before of just how stupid Putin has gone.