Russia targets the Baltic states, NATO warns Russia (round 2)

a reply to: itchy_tartan_blanket

Ukraine cannot become a member of NATO due to it having an active land dispute within its borders. To join NATO it must give up any claim to Crimea.

And when they wanted to become part of NATO in 2008 Crimea wasn't in question, but they wanted to be part of NATO as it would show they were independent of Russia, but yes because of Crimea they will not be able to be a NATO country...although they have sent troops to work with NATO in the past.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Change the rules. Rules are written on pieces of paper that you have plenty.

Europe's central bank just printed all new fresh one trillion euros.

What about rules then. How long does it take to change?

Bring on NATO in Ukraine. I am waiting.

a reply to: GargIndia

Change the rules. Rules are written on pieces of paper that you have plenty.

Europe's central bank just printed all new fresh one trillion euros.

What about rules then. How long does it take to change?

Bring on NATO in Ukraine. I am waiting.

Why do you live in Ukraine.

And what are you talking about, as printing Euros has nothing to do with Ukraine and NATO?

But please inform us, as this should be interesting watching you try to make a connection.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
And when they wanted to become part of NATO in 2008 Crimea wasn't in question, but they wanted to be part of NATO as it would show they were independent of Russia, but yes because of Crimea they will not be able to be a NATO country...although they have sent troops to work with NATO in the past.

They can actually.

It would be no different than Spain and the UK regarding Gibraltar and Turkey and Greece with the contested islands any Cyprus.

a reply to: Xcathdra

If and only if, is it technically possible? well the technical realities are one thing and geo-political realities on ground are other.

Ukraine into NATO will mean very well by 80% that Russia is fighting a whole war with NATO. As to how many nations in NATO would like to get repeated hits of the Ruskie Extra Large Industrial Grade SledgeHammer is the main question.

Even if ONE country out of the alliance of 28 refuses to accept a new country as a member then the deal stops right there.

One more important point...........I am not sure but if Russians have found ways to "cancel out" i.e. detect, track and destroy the stealth planes of the USAF...........then USAF can be pretty much kept at a distance and that leaves Western Europe on its own facing off the Russian wrath and hard punishment.

Btw, what has gone wrong with world these days.............

a) Russia and Ukraine in unofficial war
b) Western nations hitting the ISIS........finally
c) North Korea and South Korea exchanging artillery
d) India and Pakistan exchanging artillery

Some warlike set up in the air...........hope not..........

a reply to: victor7

Victor, Russia must take steps to safeguard, both militarily and economically.

Russia needs to look eastwards for its exports sector.

Russia cannot depend on EU and NATO. The Maidan in Ukraine was a staged event in which Germany and USA had large roles. Russia cannot trust Germany.

The good thing is Putin realizes this.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

The printing of currency is due to dire financial condition in several parts of Europe.

The fortress Europe is crumbling.

Germany wanted strong currency. Now reverse is happening.

The economic mess can unravel relations between France and Germany.

a reply to: GargIndia

Russia needed to look east right from the time oil prices started to rise. However, it is not too late.

China is sitting on $3 Trillion reserves and would be more than happy to invest in industries that offer growth.

India has the youngest population in BRICS and there can be lots of demand for Russian gas and oil for decades to come.

Russian terms with Germany are not bad but trusting the Germans of NATO is not recommended.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Xcathdra

If and only if, is it technically possible? well the technical realities are one thing and geo-political realities on ground are other.

Ukraine into NATO will mean very well by 80% that Russia is fighting a whole war with NATO. As to how many nations in NATO would like to get repeated hits of the Ruskie Extra Large Industrial Grade SledgeHammer is the main question.

Even if ONE country out of the alliance of 28 refuses to accept a new country as a member then the deal stops right there.

One more important point...........I am not sure but if Russians have found ways to "cancel out" i.e. detect, track and destroy the stealth planes of the USAF...........then USAF can be pretty much kept at a distance and that leaves Western Europe on its own facing off the Russian wrath and hard punishment.

Btw, what has gone wrong with world these days.............

a) Russia and Ukraine in unofficial war
b) Western nations hitting the ISIS........finally
c) North Korea and South Korea exchanging artillery
d) India and Pakistan exchanging artillery

Some warlike set up in the air...........hope not..........

Russia isnt going to go to war with NATO even Putin knows he cant win that one. What hes trying to do is scare and influence his neighbors kind of like that bully in school everyone was afraid of. Problem is he miscalculated the resolve of the former soviet republics not to return to the past. As far as stealth no Russia cant track it going to have to rely on visual identification. Im sure since they are moving f 22s into Europe that they have been testing the Russian air defense. Any way as far as the Russian sickle oh sorry you said sledge hammer didnt you oooops any way Russian military tech is still way behind Europe especially in the area of infantry and tanks. For example they think there reactive armor will protect there tanks but Europeans already have a work around invented by the Israelis to tear apart tanks with reactive armor. So the only true threat Russia has is nuclear but using that would be suicide especially since estimates say do to poor upkeep could be as high as 60 percent failure rate. Though even with that its still a threat but thats why Russia did that ICBM test a little while ago trying to show the west they can still launch ICBMs. They had several fail before the Ukraine conflict in fact several YouTubes on it they failed with style. Having a problem with the guidance systems causes them to spin like a top and leaves interesting patterns in the sky.

The bully is NATO. Every single day we hear multiple threats to Russia from severals officials of NATO countries.

A direct war between Russia and NATO is some way off but it is coming.

You are completely mistaken about nuclear war. Your statements are childish. If NATO wants to go to war based on such assessments than God help it.

The war would not happen according to your scenarios. I see three nuclear exchanges in World War III, not one. The MAD does not occur.

The big tank battles that were planned in cold war WILL NOT happen.

Europe does not have as much strength as you think. It will suffer from mutual disagreements between States once things start to unravel. The NATO that fights Russia will not be the same as its is today. It will shrink.

a reply to: dragonridr

I think Putin's idea of thwarting a former Soviet republic from joining NATO is to create a conflict and then freeze it. Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine are examples.

However, if NATO modifies its rules and allows nations with frozen conflicts to join the alliance then Russia is in trouble. The coin reverses on the question which is now asked to Moscow if Kremlin would go to war with NATO to safeguards its interests in a) frozen conflict in a country b) thwarting that country from joining NATO.

Will Russia still act the same i.e. provide covert support, if suddenly Ukraine becomes a member of NATO?

Problem with Russian planning and implementation is corruption that is in the DNA of the society. Corruption is the internal decay that higher energy prices have covered up till now. If not for corruption, Russian economy would be growing by more than 1% (0% after sanctions) this year.

Even 1% annual projections in Feb 2014 (i.e. before Maidan and Crimea events and resulting sanctions), despite of high energy prices show that internals of Russian economy are weak.

Putin should have thrown hard hand on law and order issues (which include corruption) right from 2001.

4000 rebel soldiers and 3500 civilians lost to achieve this stupid frozen conflict. Little value for human life in Russian culture...........still after nearly 25 years of shedding the cursed commie system.

a reply to: GargIndia

It is unfair to expect Russia to fight single handily with NATO.

Best way to discourage NATO from a conflict is for Russia to make "serious" alliance or atleast have an "open secret" that Russia and China will fight together.

If NATO is sure enough that it has Russia cornered to fight all alone, then Brussels will make an attempt to provoke a conflict.

It would be stupid for Kremlin to rely solely on nukes to provide deterrence against any aggression.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Who in their logical 'know all' mind would think Russia is to take over Baltic states? Their been part of western influence for decades. Making Russia look like a world aggressor from your pov looks like 'last resort'?



Thanks bud.

a reply to: darkorange

Making Russia look like a world aggressor from your pov looks like 'last resort'?

This.

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica
a reply to: darkorange

Making Russia look like a world aggressor from your pov looks like 'last resort'?

This.

What?

a reply to: darkorange

See what I quoted - without the "?" at the end

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: GargIndia

It is unfair to expect Russia to fight single handily with NATO.

Best way to discourage NATO from a conflict is for Russia to make "serious" alliance or atleast have an "open secret" that Russia and China will fight together.

If NATO is sure enough that it has Russia cornered to fight all alone, then Brussels will make an attempt to provoke a conflict.

It would be stupid for Kremlin to rely solely on nukes to provide deterrence against any aggression.

I agree with you that Russia does not want to fight NATO. But Russia is preparing anyway.

The perceived weakness of Russia gives a window of opportunity to NATO.

The Chinese will not create an alliance on the lines of NATO. However the strategic interests of China are aligned with that of Russia. The economic cooperation can increase quite a lot. The military cooperation can also increase significantly. The Russians can actually use military goods (specially components like electronics) made in China.

originally posted by: darkorange
a reply to: Xcathdra

Who in their logical 'know all' mind would think Russia is to take over Baltic states? Their been part of western influence for decades. Making Russia look like a world aggressor from your pov looks like 'last resort'?



Thanks bud.

In the last century the Baltic states spent more time under Soviet occupation than they have been independent.

Secondly Russia is the one messing with the Baltic states, and we know this not only from western media but from Russian media as well. Are you incapable of seeing that?

Putin made the claim he would protect ethnic Russians (like Hitler protected ethnic Germans bs excuse). All 3 baltic states have large ethnic Russian populations.

Putin is a moron and thinks he is untouchable.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: dragonridr

I think Putin's idea of thwarting a former Soviet republic from joining NATO is to create a conflict and then freeze it. Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine are examples.

However, if NATO modifies its rules and allows nations with frozen conflicts to join the alliance then Russia is in trouble. The coin reverses on the question which is now asked to Moscow if Kremlin would go to war with NATO to safeguards its interests in a) frozen conflict in a country b) thwarting that country from joining NATO.

Will Russia still act the same i.e. provide covert support, if suddenly Ukraine becomes a member of NATO?

Problem with Russian planning and implementation is corruption that is in the DNA of the society. Corruption is the internal decay that higher energy prices have covered up till now. If not for corruption, Russian economy would be growing by more than 1% (0% after sanctions) this year.

Even 1% annual projections in Feb 2014 (i.e. before Maidan and Crimea events and resulting sanctions), despite of high energy prices show that internals of Russian economy are weak.

Putin should have thrown hard hand on law and order issues (which include corruption) right from 2001.

4000 rebel soldiers and 3500 civilians lost to achieve this stupid frozen conflict. Little value for human life in Russian culture...........still after nearly 25 years of shedding the cursed commie system.

I don't think Ukraine is a frozen conflict. I disagree with you.

I rather think Russia was taken by surprise, and actually did not have a plan.

I think Russia is going day to day on this one. Russia is reacting to events and postures.

The corruption issue is unrelated to Ukraine war.

The losses of "rebel" soldiers are high due to lack of planning and due to pretense of not overtly supporting rebels. It is going more like people's war.

I think losses would have been much higher had Putin not supported the rebels. You would have seen deaths on genocidal proportions. Putin saved East Ukraine from genocide.

So it is a question of what is better:

1. total war
2. Resistance
3. Accepting defeat

Putin has chosen the middle option - "resistance"

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: darkorange
a reply to: Xcathdra

Who in their logical 'know all' mind would think Russia is to take over Baltic states? Their been part of western influence for decades. Making Russia look like a world aggressor from your pov looks like 'last resort'?



Thanks bud.

In the last century the Baltic states spent more time under Soviet occupation than they have been independent.

Secondly Russia is the one messing with the Baltic states, and we know this not only from western media but from Russian media as well. Are you incapable of seeing that?

Putin made the claim he would protect ethnic Russians (like Hitler protected ethnic Germans bs excuse). All 3 baltic states have large ethnic Russian populations.

Putin is a moron and thinks he is untouchable.

Actually this seems like an effective thing - using Russian population as a weapon.

Muslims use this weapon all the time - using co-coreligionists to create trouble in other States.

Catholics use their religion for political purposes all the time wherever they operate.

You cannot call Putin a moron; though you can call him other names.