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Russia targets the Baltic states, NATO warns Russia (round 2)

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posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 10:52 AM
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a reply to: DJW001

Why do you think I hate America, I have never said once I did?

The only thing I hate is the foreign policy of America, but that goes the same for my own government, because it is the same. I don`t hate my country because of that, only my politicians, so why assume it would be any different regarding to America?

You`re so desperately wanting to make look like Putin is bad that implying one who knows he`s not behind the mess needs to be portrayed in a certain way?

Being sympathetic to the West is something completely different as to supporting its politics. So you think people who support killing of people are angles? This question makes the one before actual more clear.



Let me be blunt: if you hate America and NATO so much, who would you prefer to have won WWII?


Completely irrelevant question, because I don`t hate America, total different situation and totally different time.



What, exactly has the West gained? Nothing. What has Putin gained? Crimea. And yet you still won't acknowledge that Putin is behind it all.


The West has gained EU membership of The Ukraine, possible NATO membership in the future, Eastern Ukrainians not voting in Ukraine so Western puppets have a better change of staying in power and part of the European population convinced Putin is way more bad than he actual is (it will come in handy with NATO spending, bypassing Russia from gas sales, forcing Moldavia in NATO and trying to sway public opinion in the Ukraine about joining NATO). But when you`re blinded with hate, you actual forget to look about all these things.
edit on 6-10-2014 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Xcathdra , learn how to troll in Scandinavian way

LIVE AND LET LOVE - Russian National Anthem
youtu.be...

Another funny video about Russian anthem youtu.be...


edit on 6-10-2014 by kitzik because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien


The West has gained EU membership of The Ukraine,


No, it hasn't What the "West"has "gained" is an "Association Agreement," not Ukraine membership in the EU. This was essentially a free trade agreement, and would have provided European markets for Ukrainian goods, as well as higher quality consumer goods from Europe for Ukrainian consumers. The agreement dates back to 2008.


possible NATO membership in the future,


Ukraine cannot be allowed into NATO if it is involved in any border disputes; that's in the rules. So long as Russia maintains an insurgency in Eastern Ukraine, it will never be eligible for NATO membership... almost as though Putin planned it that way, wouldn't you say?


Eastern Ukrainians not voting in Ukraine


The Kyic government tried to make it possible for Eastern Ukrainians to vote in the national elections. Who prevented them?




so Western puppets have a better change of staying in power and part of the European population convinced Putin is way more bad than he actual is


But way too many not realizing how much worse he is than they want to believe.


(it will come in handy with NATO spending, bypassing Russia from gas sales, forcing Moldavia in NATO and trying to sway public opinion in the Ukraine about joining NATO).


If Europe stops buying gas from Russia, it is no-one's fault but Putin's. Russia has already seized the Transdniester region from Moldova and has begun to warn Moldova about a "Ukraine like situation." Do you blame Moldova for wanting protection?


But when you`re blinded with hate, you actual forget to look about all these things.


You are the one blinded with hate. It is pointless trying to reason with you. You would rather see Russia drown in blood than let Ukraine choose for itself.


edit on 6-10-2014 by DJW001 because: Edit to polish style.



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 02:54 PM
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a reply to: DJW001

You have really no clue to what`s the West is up to.

Here are your answers to NATO imperialism regarding Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia :

Ukraine to seek NATO membership, says PM Yatsenyuk



Ukraine's prime minister has said he will ask parliament to put the country on a path towards Nato membership.

Arseny Yatsenyuk said the government was sending a bill to MPs urging that Ukraine's non-bloc status be cancelled.

Source

McCain Wants Faster NATO Integration Of Georgia, Moldova



U.S. Senator John McCain has called for the faster integration of Georgia and Moldova into the structures of NATO amid the ongoing crisis in Ukraine's Crimea region.

Source

Does it all now make more sense ?

Probably not, because Putin doesn`t do it.


edit on 6-10-2014 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 02:57 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien




- Ukrainians in majority didn`t wanted to be part of The West and NATO which has been proved by independent polls from before the crisis


And you do understand that one big reason many Ukrainians wanted Yanukovych out was because he didn't sign with the EU.


Namely, this was finally a choice that was being made by Ukraine to join Europe. And that means joining the world and kind of being like everybody else in the democratic and capitalist world. When Yanukovych went back on his own promises, that just led people to go out onto the streets. And, you will recall, there were mass demonstrations and many were 500,000 and more people in downtown Kiev. And they were simply insisting at the beginning that Ukraine just sign the agreement.



www.pri.org...

Now can you provide those polls and their results?



Doing what the majority of people want is actual democracy and what The West is doing has nothing to do with democracy.


Well then can you please explain for us who don't know what democracy is so that we understand your definition correctly?



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 03:12 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

The definition of democracy is for me the same as to everyone who knows what it is, stupid question.

Democracy Important to Most Ukrainians

Western-style political system does not appeal to all




WASHINGTON, D.C. -- On his visit to Kiev, Ukraine, this week, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry lauded Ukrainian protesters who "had asked for their rights and for democracy had instead been met with snipers' bullets." But Western leaders would be wrong to assume that all Ukrainians were clamoring for a "Western-style democracy" before protests erupted in late 2013.

More than one in four Ukrainians surveyed last summer before the protests (28%) said a Western-style democratic republic was the most suitable political system for their country. However, a similar percentage (29%) felt a system that has a lot of similarity to the Soviet one -- but more democratic and market-based -- was the most ideal. A significant one in five Ukrainians (19%) waxed nostalgic -- saying the former Soviet system before "perestroika" would be best.

Source

Before Crisis, Ukrainians More Likely to See NATO as a Threat



WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Ukraine's staunchest support during its recent crisis has come from countries in NATO, which, paradoxically, Ukrainians as recently as last summer were still more likely to consider a threat (29%) to their country than as protection (17%). But Ukrainians were most likely to view it as neither (44%).

Although Ukraine pursued NATO membership under pro-Western President Viktor Yuschenko, most Ukrainians never warmed to the idea. More Ukrainians saw NATO as a threat than as offering protection during the pursuit and have continued to feel this way even after the country ended its membership bid in 2010 under President Viktor Yanukovich. Dropping the bid may have neutralized the threat for many Ukrainians, with at least four in 10 or more likely to see NATO as neither protection nor a threat since that time.

Like residents in other former Soviet countries, Ukrainians' views of NATO in the past largely have been defined by their country's relations and cultural ties to Russia, which opposes NATO expansion. Within Ukraine, residents' views of NATO have depended on their proximity to Russia and Europe. Nearly half of Ukrainians (46%) in the East, which includes the Crimea region that is scheduled to vote this weekend on whether to join Russia, viewed NATO as a threat last year. Only 8% in the West and 18% in Central Ukraine saw NATO as a threat.

Source


edit on 6-10-2014 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 03:24 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien




You have really no clue to what`s the West is up to.


But yet you do...gotcha!



Ukraine to seek NATO membership, says PM Yatsenyuk


And they have that right to join with whoever they want...and Putin has no say as to what they do.




McCain Wants Faster NATO Integration Of Georgia, Moldova



And he also said this...


McCain, a Republican former presidential candidate, told Voice of America that one of the steps by the U.S. Congress in response to Moscow's actions would be to "accelerate the path of Georgia and Moldova into NATO."


It seems it would be something to look at depending on what Russia was doing concerning those countries, and not exactly how you are trying to portray those comments.



Probably not, because Putin doesn`t do it.


And yet Putin and Russia worked with NATO for years before they annexed Crimea, but that always seems to be something that gets overlooked by people.



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 03:41 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien




The definition of democracy is for me the same as to everyone who knows what it is, stupid question.


Obviously it isn't, because didn't you say this?



Doing what the majority of people want is actual democracy and what The West is doing has nothing to do with democracy.


Not such a stupid question, in fact it is a pretty straight forward question that you just tried to get around.



Before Crisis, Ukrainians More Likely to See NATO as a Threat


Interesting that in the first paragraph it says something different...


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Ukraine's staunchest support during its recent crisis has come from countries in NATO, which, paradoxically, Ukrainians as recently as last summer were still more likely to consider a threat (29%) to their country than as protection (17%). But Ukrainians were most likely to view it as neither (44%).


So if 44% see NATO as neither a threat, or protection how does that make it a majority of the population seeing them as a threat?

Now as for this...




Democracy Important to Most Ukrainians

Western-style political system does not appeal to all


And it never will so what does that matter?

Also your polls are from 2013...have anything more up to date?



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 03:49 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

It proofs what the West was after and what they have gained, and that was more as nothing as implied by DJW001.

The people didn`t wanted to join NATO (see polls), and only by installing Western puppets and a war they could achieve such a goal. They also didn`t wanted a Western style Democracy and Yatsenyuk trying to get NATO membership is also not what the Ukrainians wanted, so again no democracy.

See, it`s not all that difficult to understand, just do your research, use your brain and it all becomes clear.



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 04:20 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien




The people didn`t wanted to join NATO (see polls), and only by installing Western puppets and a war they could achieve such a goal. They also didn`t wanted a Western style Democracy and Yatsenyuk trying to get NATO membership is also not what the Ukrainians wanted, so again no democracy.


Again your poll doesn't say that, in fact it only shows 46% of the East didn't want it not that percentage of the country which your trying to imply.

And again the polls that discuss Western style democracy are from 2013, can you provide something a bit more current?



See, it`s not all that difficult to understand, just do your research, use your brain and it all becomes clear.


Especially when you misrepresent the facts, and the research I have done shows your wrong which btw came from your own sources...imagine that.



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 04:32 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

It`s important to use the not screwed data from before the crisis. The games of the West have now screwed it all, and that was the whole reason for The West to create the mess, so Ukraine could become a EU and NATO member.

And now enough with my brain doing your work for you, from now on you have to do your own thinking again.



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 04:48 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien




It`s important to use the not screwed data from before the crisis. The games of the West have now screwed it all, and that was the whole reason for The West to create the mess, so Ukraine could become a EU and NATO member.


So the west has been doing this since 2008 when Ukraine applied to become a NATO member and NATO denied them?


Much like Georgia, another former Soviet state seeking to shake off Russian influence, Ukraine saw NATO membership as one route to independence and sought membership in 2008.


www.washingtonpost.com...



And now enough with my brain doing your work for you, from now on you have to do your own thinking again.


Well, when you misrepresent something from your source I feel it is a duty of mine to show you the mistakes you made, as for your brain doing the work...you may want to rest it as it seems a bit overloaded considering what your providing as evidence.



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 05:01 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

If Russia had annexed part of your country and was fomenting violence in yet another part, you would want NATO protection, too. Unfortunately, in order to join NATO, a country cannot have unresolved border issues, so as long as Putin can stir things up in "Novorossiya," Ukraine will be unable to join NATO. Likewise, so long as Russian "peace keepers" are occupying Transdniestria and claiming that it is independent, Moldova cannot join NATO. That is why he is occupying and/or causing trouble in those areas. Poland is not yet fully integrated into NATO and is probably concerned that Putin may use Kaliningrad as a wedge.

John McCain is an idiot who thinks that talking like a big, ill informed bully makes him look strong. But then, look who he picked as a running mate. The problem is that Putin has two years left to repent and resolve things diplomatically. The next American president will have something to prove, and she will probably prove it on Putin.

edit on 6-10-2014 by DJW001 because: Edit to correct typo.



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 05:12 PM
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a reply to: DJW001


SWIFT as an organization would NOT implement sanctions line on Russia

SWIFT says unless EU makes a legislation it would not act. In EU there are several countries which do not like sanctions on Russia so there will be no legislation either.

www.swift.com.../en/swift_com/2014/PR_swift_sanctions_statement.xml
Link is not working so here is the full article

SWIFT Sanctions Statement
Published on 06 Oct 2014

SWIFT Statement

Brussels, 6 October 2014 - SWIFT and its stakeholders have received calls to disconnect institutions and entire countries from its network – most recently Israel and Russia.

SWIFT is a neutral global cooperative company set up under Belgian law. It was established by and for its members to create a shared worldwide messaging service and a common language for international transactions. SWIFT provides services to over 10,500 financial institutions and corporations in over 200 jurisdictions around the world. SWIFT is a critical service provider to the financial industry and plays a pivotal role in supporting international commerce and trade.

SWIFT services are designed to facilitate its customers’ compliance with sanctions and other regulations, however SWIFT will not make unilateral decisions to disconnect institutions from its network as a result of political pressure.

SWIFT regrets the pressure, as well as the surrounding media speculation, both of which risk undermining the systemic character of the services that SWIFT provides its customers around the world. As a utility with a systemic global character, it has no authority to make sanctions decisions.

Any decision to impose sanctions on countries or individual entities rests solely with the competent government bodies and applicable legislators. Being EU-based, SWIFT complies fully with all applicable European law.

SWIFT will not respond to individual calls and pressure to disconnect financial institutions from its network.




The next American president will have something to prove, and she will probably prove it on Putin.


What proving is that can be done? EU in its core does not like the American line of Russia. Will US go to war with Russia? Just to prove some point, that would be "massively foolish".

Btw, Vietnam wants to join the Russia's Customs Union.

thebricspost.com...'___'XVeudh4

Who says China and Russia are enemies..........only the "rabid minded" westerns it seems.

thebricspost.com...'___'h1eudh4
edit on 6-10-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: DJW001




Likewise, so long as Russian "peace keepers" are occupying Transdniestria and claiming that it is independent, Moldova cannot join NATO. That is why he is occupying and/or causing trouble in those areas. Poland is not yet fully integrated into NATO and is probably concerned that Putin may use Kaliningrad as a wedge.


Transdniestria conflict started in 1989-1990, still during USSR times. It was somewhat similar movement to current Novorossiya events after Moldova decided to gain independence. Heavily Russian/Ukranian region didn't wanted to share same fate as Romanian Moldova. This conflict started long before Putin and long before anyone would think that some former SSR could join NATO.
And what about Kaliningrad ? Poland have no legal or historical basis over Konigsberg. Konigsberg/Kaliningrad were annexed from Germany after WW2, some territorial gains went to Poland from former East Prussia and some to Russia. If anyone it is only Germany that may claim any territory there. Btw Konigsberg was destroyed by English air bombardment similar to Dresden, so it was totally rebuilt during USSR time. youtu.be...
edit on 6-10-2014 by kitzik because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-10-2014 by kitzik because: (no reason given)

Poland is a member of NATO from 1999, what are your ramblings about not fully integrated ? Is there a special status for not fully integrated countries ? - No. And what is exactly "fully integrated" in your opinion ? Is it when "fully integrated" countries starting to be openly anti Russian it is only then they are becoming fully integrated ?

edit on 6-10-2014 by kitzik because: (no reason given)

Somehow Poland was enough integrated into NATO when they send Polish troops to Iraq in 2003 en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 6-10-2014 by kitzik because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 05:30 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

US wanted Ukraine to become a member and now have an excuse, have you actual read what I wrote in my post, "possible NATO membership in the future?"...and Russia has warned about not doing that, so if the West is stupid enough to still go on with it later on, you can expect fireworks then.



posted on Oct, 6 2014 @ 07:41 PM
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originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

If Russia had annexed part of your country and was fomenting violence in yet another part, you would want NATO protection, too.

The problem is that Putin has two years left to repent and resolve things diplomatically. The next American president will have something to prove, and she will probably prove it on Putin.


I see the reverse. I see NATO using proxies to foment trouble in Russia. NATO is very much at war with Russia through former SSR proxies.

Putin has nothing to repent. You should get your head examined as you are full of weird ideas. There is nothing Obama has done which is favorable to Russia. So the same thing continues.

If you think Obama single-handedly makes policy in USA, you are confused.



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 01:26 AM
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a reply to: GargIndia




If you think Obama single-handedly makes policy in USA, you are confused.


Due to the general views that Obama has been soft on Russia, it is likely that in 2016 a Republican candidate can win the White House. From 1980s onwards each republican president has been bad for the US.

Reagan: Turned US from net creditor to net debtor. The trend continues

Bush I: Did not avail the peace dividends from the fall of the Soviet Union. Did nothing spectacular. Architect of the 'harsh' sanctions on Iraq and chain reactions are following even now.

Clinton: Democrat domestically but a Republican in foreign policy. Maintained sanctions on Iraq. Chain reactions followed.

Bush II: Probably the worst President in last 100 years. Brought US to its financial knees. Started senseless war of 2003 on Iraq that cost $2 Trillion. Sunk US much heavy into already massive debts.

Guess Republicans are hell bent in weakening the positive points of the US in every term at the WH.

US weakens any further and fanatic organizations like ISIS etc. will become uncontrollable. That makes me shudder in the boots.






posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 10:47 AM
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originally posted by: victor7
Reagan: Turned US from net creditor to net debtor. The trend continues

Height of the Cold war.. It takes money when a continent is hiding under the covers because the USSR thought it could act any way it chooses. A trend that continues.....



originally posted by: victor7
Bush I: Did not avail the peace dividends from the fall of the Soviet Union. Did nothing spectacular. Architect of the 'harsh' sanctions on Iraq and chain reactions are following even now.

Actually he worked with Russia and Europe to draw down cold war forces to peace time levels. It allowed Russia to spend their cash internally because they could no longer afford their foreign policy blunders.

Secondly the UN imposed sanctions on Iraq, not the US. Also, since you are ignoring facts, China and Russia went along with the sanctions, being they had to vote on them.




originally posted by: victor7
Clinton: Democrat domestically but a Republican in foreign policy. Maintained sanctions on Iraq. Chain reactions followed.

The UN placed the sanctions. Not the US.
Intervened in Yugoslavia to prevent a genocide of the Muslim population. Something Russia was also involved in, at least for a short period before they decided to back the government doing the genocide.



originally posted by: victor7
Bush II: Probably the worst President in last 100 years. Brought US to its financial knees. Started senseless war of 2003 on Iraq that cost $2 Trillion. Sunk US much heavy into already massive debts.

Obama has spent more money than the President before him combined.
Wikileaks released the information that Iraq had WMD's and that they were located. This would be where we go back to the UN sanctions from the UN. If you read the resolutions it does not say Iraq can have a few WMDS. It states no program period.

Again Russia and China let the sanctions stand.

While the worst president ever is an opinion, Bush is about to lose that title to Putin.




originally posted by: victor7
Guess Republicans are hell bent in weakening the positive points of the US in every term at the WH.

How little you understand American politics.



originally posted by: victor7
US weakens any further and fanatic organizations like ISIS etc. will become uncontrollable. That makes me shudder in the boots.

Then where is Russia and China at on ISIS? I dont see either nations sending military units to assist the other 40 plus nations fighting ISIS right now.

Once again you blame the US while showing absolutely no proof to support it.



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra




Then where is Russia and China at on ISIS? I dont see either nations sending military units to assist the other 40 plus nations fighting ISIS right now.


Russia and China are regional powers. Russia is more busy fending off the NATO encroachment on its borders and resulting geopolitical insecurities. One way Russia can help against ISIS is by making sure its muslim population in south is vaccinated against the jehadi cancer that is spreading around ME. Russia has provided arms to Iraq like Su-25 bombers already. China usually does not meddle into matters that directly does not effect its interests. However down the road if ISIS expands then China WILL have to provide support.


edit on 7-10-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)



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