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Genetics and Evolution

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posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 03:51 PM
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Evolution occurs through a prolonged period of time using genetic recombination and natural selection. Genetic recombination works in a very precise way. Mutations also play a part, but I will mention them later in the thread. We need to start by defining a few terms:

Genetic Recombination-the process by which two DNA molecules exchange genetic information, resulting in the production of a new combination of alleles.

Natural Selection-the gradual process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of the effect of inherited traits on the differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment.

Allele-An allele is an alternative form of a gene (one member of a pair) that is located at a specific position on a specific chromosome.

The Law of Segregation-states that allele pairs separate during gamete formation, and randomly unite at fertilization.

The Law of Independent Assortment-states that allele pairs separate independently during the formation of gametes.(This is not true for the majority of genes: Linked Genes, Multiple Genes, and Sex Genes are not independently assorted)

Homozygous-refers to having identical alleles for a single trait.

Heterozygous- refers to having two different alleles for a single trait.

Phenotype-as an organism's expressed physical traits.

Genotype-A combination of alleles situated on corresponding chromosomes that determines a specific trait.



Genetic recombination is very simple with Mendelian genetics. I am sure the majority of us remember punnet squares from school. As long as the allele is sorted independently it is a simple bit of probability to determine what trait the offspring will carry. For example, lets use peas and lets trace the trait Round (R) or Wrinkled(r). The trait for round peas is dominant, therefore if the pea has one allele for a Round pea and one for a Wrinkled pea the phenotype will be Round. So lets say both parent plants are heterozygous. That means their genotype is Rr X Rr. The offspring will have a 1 in 4 chance of being wrinkled.

So Genetic recombination and natural selection produce variances among species. Now the simple punnet square above gets much more complex when you deal with things like linked genes or multiple genes. This is not Mendelian Genetics, but I decided to add it for those who want a bit more in depth knowledge. Height in humans is an example of multiple genes in humans. There are around 13 genes that determine height. So the genotype would appear something like, AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMm. Each capital letter codes for tall and each lower case letter codes for a short human. Now you can see why this square would be a bit more difficult as there would be another whole set of letters through M to go with that. However, If someone wanted to take the time the probabilities could be determined, and you can tell that there many different combination that could occur in multiple genes that give tons of variability. That being said Mendelian Genetics and Non-Mendelian Genetics easily show us how our traits vary among species. For example, different heights in dogs or humans are all examples of genetic variance and as you can see the more alleles involved in the phenotypic expression the more room for variance within that particular trait.

Animals evolve because natural selection selects from a pool of alleles, and over time homozygotes for the selected trait become dominant in a species. Many times after a period of selection however, the organism loses the ability to produce a trait it once had available in its genetic pool.

Darwin's Finches are an example of how a trait can vary in more that just one way like in Mendelian Genetics. The trait for beak shape varies among finches. The shape of the beak also carries an environmental factor as the finches with certain size beaks eat different types of food, and therefore cause the finches with similar beaks to interact more often than finches with different beaks interact. If one beak size made it much harder for a finch to get food in its environment, then that trait might eventually be lost in that organism forever as the allele for that trait might go extinct. What if that beak size that went extinct would be selected after a catastrophe of some kind, but the gene pool no longer has the required gene. The organism then becomes extinct as a whole as it can no longer genetically adapt to its environment.

Most evolutionist tend to push random mutations as the mechanism by which new traits arise. Its obvious from simple genetics that traits vary, but new information is never created through a perfect transfer of genetic material. However, there are tons of types of mutations, but it is statistically impossible for them to account for new traits in the genome and the genetic variability we see today. Meaning mutations are not the best explanation for how new genetic material arises. That does not mean however, that new genetic information cannot arise in the genome. Their are two ways for changes to occur to the genetic sequence: Mutations and recombination. Mutations occurs either by exposure to a foreign mutagen, or it is the result of errors that occur in biochemical processes. Virtually all changes in genes are attributed to errors in biochemical processes. It is possible for a random change in genome sequence to produce beneficial mutations, finely tuned environmental adaptations are most likely not formed by the random changing of sequence. New evidence is coming to light that new alleles might be the result of purposeful recombination.
Cells preform an action during meiotic division called Homologus recombination. Homologus recombination can occur either BETWEEN genes which leaves preexisting alleles untouched, or Homologus recombination IN genes which can result in the formation of new alleles. It is widely acknowledged that genetic editions through Homologus Recombination are part of a highly coordinated process involving a cascade of specific macromolecule interactions, and directed by highly organized regulatory systems. The start of recombination during meiosis relies upon several genes, and is directed by a complex network of cell signaling mechanisms. This process used to be thought of as random, but now we can see that the frequency of recombination events are non-random and display positive interference.

For those of you who want more information, here is a link to where a guy does an excellent job laying out some of the findings.
www.nwcreation.net...

I have got to go eat so I am gonna post this and let the conversation get rolling. Sorry to cut it short, but maybe the converstation will open up more topics



P.S. What is best supported by this evidence design or naturalism?
edit on 12-9-2014 by ServantOfTheLamb because: added a question

edit on 12-9-2014 by ServantOfTheLamb because: Reworded The part requested

edit on 12-9-2014 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 04:06 PM
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Good thread. I believe there is more than randomness and natural selection myself. I think the subconscious mind can cause these genetic changes and expression to happen, either through need or desire. I also believe that the foods consumed can cause changes in physical and mental features.



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 04:18 PM
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a reply to: rickymouse

Glad you enjoyed it!



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 04:24 PM
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This is incorrect. What about EV1 EV 2 EV 3 EV 4 EV5? Which where inherited by retro-viruses.
And Viruses can infect cross species, Without any mating involved. How is natural selection viable? When its clearly the opposite.

We are hosts to many organisms, Bacteria and viruses that mutated and became PHAGES.
Such as the white blood cell is an ancient linage of intergration between bacteria and virus to form a phage of which has a symbiotic relationship.

Darwin didn't have a microscope. So what he says back then really does not apply to science right now.

Influenza inflects how many animal linages?

If what makes us, us and these specific traits are carried in the GERMLINE. Then if mass infection occures its obvious it will carry from generation to generation.

You try to say that mutation does not account for the new imputes of data.

How does a back person gain the color of blue eyes, Just by randomly assorting already present allels? Its not possible. It's impossible to miraculously spawn information that does not exist within the strands. Unless sometime in the passed the african got mixed with someone else, Eitherway. You know what i mean.
What's more frequent? Illness or going through generations A to Y? Because im pretty sure illness occures constantly well we can't exactly speed the rate that population grows and spawns the next generation.

Not even just viruses, But pathogens in general can be carried out from the birth cannel. We are subject to microbs and what makes us human is literally a 1% different from everything else.

The common ancestor thing is kinda unavoidable when pathogens are everywhere and outnumber us by the trillions.

Your gut is inhabitted by bacteria that break down food into enzymes that the cellulars can absorb.
So even then, The bacteria that enters our body influences our DNA and overall what makes us US.
with a ratio of 10 bacteria to 1 human cell. That's not even counting all the phages flying around in the body. The picture is a lot more complicated then matching capital and miniscule letters in a 4 box grid and having that explain diversity. The traits have to be inherited through pathogens first before they even reach the populations geonome!



edit on 12-9-2014 by AnuTyr because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 04:32 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Cells preform an action during meiotic division called Homologus recombination. Homologus recombination can either between genes which leaves preexisting genes untouched, and Homologus recombination in genes which can result in the formation of new alleles.


Can you rephrase the underlined part?

Are you suggesting that there is intelligent changes/interference occurring at, or between, recombination stages? If so, what intelligence is causing the "interference"?



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 05:06 PM
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a reply to: AnuTyr

Natural selection isn't the only driving force behind evolution...
The main driving force behind evolution is selective selection. For example, the orchid, and what ever species of insect or bird it wants to 'use' to better it's survival.

But generally in a long drawn out evolutionary path beneficial mutations are the main force behind 'new' data. Other than that it's gradually built up over generations, where natural selection comes into play.



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 05:58 PM
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a reply to: AnuTyr

You are making an assumption that a retrovirus came before the Animal Cell. Look at this:




We detected XMRV infection in the two cell lines and in the later passage xenografts, but not in the early passages. In particular, we found that the host mice contained two proviruses, PreXMRV-1 and PreXMRV-2, which share 99.92% identity with XMRV over >3.2-kilobase stretches of their genomes. We conclude that XMRV was not present in the original CWR22 tumor but was generated by recombination of two proviruses during tumor passaging in mice. The probability that an identical recombinant was generated independently is negligible (~10−12); our results suggest that the association of XMRV with human disease is due to contamination of human samples with virus originating from this recombination event.


XMRV is a retrovirus found in human prostate tumors and people with chronic fatigue syndrome. Notice that its origins are from a recombinant event, which means the animal DNA gave rise to the retrovirus not the other way around. This could be true for other ERV's as well. Give Science a few more years.

www.sciencemag.org...

All it would take for an ERV to enter an organisms genome is a recombinant event and reproduction would do the rest. The event would not even have to occur very often as its inserted strand of base pairs would be reproduced by the host cell.



We are hosts to many organisms, Bacteria and viruses that mutated and became PHAGES. Such as the white blood cell is an ancient linage of intergration between bacteria and virus to form a phage of which has a symbiotic relationship.


Yes we are like a big biological clock with lots of gears making us operate. What about that screams randomness to you? I dont really know what you had a problem with in the OP as you didnt quote what you were replying to and certainly not everything in the OP was incorrect as much of it is established fact.




You try to say that mutation does not account for the new imputes of data. How does a back person gain the color of blue eyes, Just by randomly assorting already present allels?


Well the most likely way is that they have a double recessive trait and Caucasian relatives somewhere in there past. That might even be completely dark skinned, and this trait might be hidden for generation after generation as the only way to express it is to be double recessive. It could occur from a mutation in the genes, but that is a far less likely scenario.




The common ancestor thing is kinda unavoidable when pathogens are everywhere and outnumber us by the trillions.


How exactly does this prove a common ancestor?




Your gut is inhabitted by bacteria that break down food into enzymes that the cellulars can absorb. So even then, The bacteria that enters our body influences our DNA and overall what makes us US. with a ratio of 10 bacteria to 1 human cell.


Whats your point? None of this conflicts with what I have said?




The picture is a lot more complicated then matching capital and miniscule letters in a 4 box grid and having that explain diversity. The traits have to be inherited through pathogens first before they even reach the populations geonome!


The traits have to be inherited through pathogens first? Any Conclusive evidence to support that? Of course its more complicated than simple punnet squares. I didn't say Mendellian Genetics explained all diversity. I said it explains a ton of the pheontypical variances we see among species like height. It tells us how independently assorted genes are passed. You can see how diversity spreads and is expressed among organism that way.



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 06:12 PM
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a reply to: Bleeeeep




Are you suggesting that there is intelligent changes/interference occurring at, or between, recombination stages? If so, what intelligence is causing the "interference"?


I would say it was designed that way. Like I said, its pretty well recognized that genetic editions through Homologus Recombination are part of a highly coordinated process involving a cascade of specific macromolecule interactions, and directed by highly organized regulatory systems. These systems are not understood completely yet, but it is obvious that they are there. I believe the recombination happens and creates new alleles when it does and why it does because our bodies were made to work like self correcting computers. We get hacked sometimes and the hardware doesn't work quite right, but the majority of the time we and other animals are machines of extraordinary programming. We might not completely understand how it self corrects all the time, but it obviously does, and the majority of it is because DNA is so amazing. Not only that all life functions based on its genetic instructions. DNA is like a manual and the concepts expressed in that manual are your physical characteristics. You are a big picture book. How do you get that without an author?



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 06:47 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Where did the original DNA information come from?



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 07:04 PM
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a reply to: AnuTyr

We individually host a whole world of critters in our body that have lived symbiotically in a relationship going back millions of years. Alliances were made long ago and they blended into a civilization that works together to survive. Each and every cell in our body can think and communicate with other cells. The brain is part of this, but cells communicate amongst themselves also.

But I am sure you already know this as is somewhat like what you are saying.



posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 07:52 PM
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a reply to: guitarplayer

I would say irrelevant in a discussion about evolution, but I have no idea anyways. Abiogenesis definitely doesn't make the cut, so I am waiting around to hear a better answer.
edit on 12-9-2014 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2014 @ 01:15 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

All my point was is, There are many *allells* and even differnt proteins some people lack all together *except for the CORE template of course*. The blue eye trait was inherited by from a Virus. Diversity changes, As the micro life forms change we change along with them.

evs can be constantly written in the more *inactive* parts of the DNA. Consuming different microbes would undoubtly also influence diet and not by chance. Physical features to better suit that diet. Such as the Darwin finches.

It's not so much the traits are left behind but the traits are *Over written* by incoming information where our body hosting its ecosystem is constantly switching partners. Sometimes they hangaround for a while and until we move on or the pathogens change into something else and lose their function it is then yet again replaced by another linage.

my comment about the comman ancestor is pathogens roam around freely in the outside world.
It's nearly impossible to tell the difference if humans contracted the traits externally or from * A genetic ancestor* through breeding. So breeding is not completely a viable solution in how these traits come to arise.

Tho you are correct that by limitting the library of choices for a phenotype will generate a *dominate* trait more likely to be expressed and overtime, other traits are lost. But many of these new traits that are picked up were from enviromental factors rather than soely reproduction. All reproduction is carry those traits, it does not invent them.

Good thread i just thought you trying to explain how physical traits are determined by the phenotypes which is certaintly true but to say that mutation is not a driving factor in it is not true because the source of these alleles in the first place came from DNA exchange through micro(Vampirism) lol.



posted on Sep, 13 2014 @ 01:36 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You have just described Natural Selection which leads to changes within species of animals through loss or mutation of existing genetic material. This does not account for the initial data.



posted on Sep, 13 2014 @ 03:22 AM
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originally posted by: mikefougnie
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You have just described Natural Selection which leads to changes within species of animals through loss or mutation of existing genetic material. This does not account for the initial data.


Well its genetics and evolution which has nothing to do with the origins of DNA . DNA is a given when talking evolution and the operations behind the genetic material.



posted on Sep, 13 2014 @ 04:33 AM
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a reply to: AnuTyr




All my point was is, There are many *allells* and even differnt proteins some people lack all together *except for the CORE template of course*. The blue eye trait was inherited by from a Virus. Diversity changes, As the micro life forms change we change along with them.


My point was you don't actually know if they were inherited from a virus, or if a recombinant event within the DNA produced a new allele, or a retrovirus that produces an allele much like in the XMRV example I gave you in the previous post. You said in your other post that you cannot just magic in new information, and I agree. Homologus Recombination is neither a random event or me trying to spell in some new info. Homologus Recombination can occur during reproduction and cell repair. When this occurs in either place it can result in a totally new allele.




evs can be constantly written in the more *inactive* parts of the DNA. Consuming different microbes would undoubtly also influence diet and not by chance. Physical features to better suit that diet. Such as the Darwin finches.


ERV's can be created during recombinant event I have already given you proof published in a Scientific Journal. Nothing requires them to be written into the genome from an external source.




my comment about the comman ancestor is pathogens roam around freely in the outside world. It's nearly impossible to tell the difference if humans contracted the traits externally or from * A genetic ancestor* through breeding. So breeding is not completely a viable solution in how these traits come to arise.


Once again, you don't know for sure that ERV's came first, that is an assumption.




But many of these new traits that are picked up were from enviromental factors rather than soely reproduction. All reproduction is carry those traits, it does not invent them.


Ok, Homologus recombination:





You'll notice in either video that when HR occurs parts of a DNA strand are changed. The study I was reading suggest that HR does not randomly change parts of the strand, but rather that it purposely changes the strand and does so at non-random frequencies.

New evidence is showing that the above process is not as random as we thought. It also shows evidence of positive interference. . That seems to explain some of the stranger creatures in nature.



I mean what seems more logical that the creature above was created by random mutations or by purposeful genetic enhancement? Look how well it mimics its environment. Its almost as though its genetics know exactly how the environment around it appears and how to fit in. I don't think this is a random as is believed now based on some of the information I have came across recently.




but to say that mutation is not a driving factor in it is not true because the source of these alleles in the first place came from DNA exchange through micro(Vampirism) lol.


Once again you do not know for certain that is how those portions of DNA entered the Genome. Statistically speaking its absurd to assume that mutations are the main driving for behind new genetic material. Math is a Science whether it makes your answers seem crazy or not. You realize that for me to call something mathematically absurd its chances must be less than 1 in 10^50. This is known as Borel's law. Random sequence changing wont amount to order. That is why I am putting it out there that HR might be the new thing people begin to look into as a driving force behind major variances in a species.

One expert explained it thusly:

When trying to determine whether the desired results will happen, always consider that the fractions used in probabilities carry two stories with them. One tells you the chance of something happening, and the other tells you the chance that that same event will not happen; i.e., if the odds are one in ten (10%) that a certain event will occur, then likewise the odds are nine to ten (90%) that it will not...
Who could reasonably believe that a coin will turn up heads 100 times in succession, when the odds for it happening are: 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000...and the probability that it won't is: 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 in 1,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000...
The probability that the event will not happen is what we must believe if we are concerned about being realistic.



posted on Sep, 13 2014 @ 02:04 PM
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I'm not talking about the Original genetic material shifting around, I'm saying the in order for that material to even get there in the first place. It comes from a pathogen.

If Evolution is to be viable. We need to get the source proteins first because we can just start mashing them into strings and say *That is their Origin*

It DOES come from an external source. There is big debate over the origins of Retro-viruses with some scientists saying viruses spawned from DNA in animals. But this cannot be true because the viral lineages in our DNA go back to the begining when the michchondria developed the Uterian wall, The Cell juice that comes from a protein inherited by a virus.

Our body recieved many proteins from viruses that synthesize chemicals. You can change the allells around as much as you want but they won't move into *Core* functions as those remain fixed in their positions. And many of these core functions are EVs. Since mostly everything else is swapped around like you mentioned. Anything that does not deal with reproduction directly and the formation of the fetus is termed *inactive* or *Junk* Dna, Which is where all the lesser RVs attach themselves to in hopes of becoming a permenant EV.

We know this because we can see where it all settled by comparing our chromosoms to other animals with all of them containing at least EV1

I understand what you are saying and that's exactly what Genetic manipulation is.
Cutting and slicing segments of dna and recombining them. Yes this does occure and swapping the proteins around can give rise to new function in the proteins or leave other proteins that were active inactive.



But the origins of these proteins themselves don't come from Homologus Recombination, Only the segments that these are arreanged in. But Homologus Recombination does influence physical traits when it occures.
But in genetic manipulation they use a virus to do the recombining for them. so that Homologus Recombination is possible.

Homologus Recombination is just genetic manipulation it is not Genetic synthesis. Which is printing a cell from the known 4 genetic *letters* TCGA



They have to take proteins that DON'T exist from one species, to apply it to another. They can't just shift the original DNA around to make a cat glow. They need to genetically alter a cat with lumincent bacteria which come from jellyfish or fireflies.



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