How Can Jesus Be God?

a reply to: Tangerine

He has audibly spoken to me and again just as the NT says is much more than "one iota"

1 Thessalonians 4 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

written how many moons ago and the "bizarre" odds of accuracy?

and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest Acts9

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Maigret

no hygiene was necessary

Bovine excrement! How many people subsequently died because Jesus pushed the issue of NOT washing hands at a time when people didn't know about hygiene!?

And when Christian missionaries were planting blankets, infected with small pox and influenza to native, first nation people, I suppose they justified it like you too, "no hygiene necessary "... God's will if the heathen people live or die.

Here's another extremely dangerous and irresponsible teaching, supposedly from Jesus, (God) too.

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

We hear of people dying because of this scripture all the time.

The results of the lack of hygiene you quoted was due to ignorance, and not to that particular piece of Scripture.

In the Biblical context, that verse was in an argument about the 'commandments' of the Pharisees that overrode God's instructions. And although the wording is as though they were 'washing' their hands, it is more a case of specific instructions on how to run water over first one hand and then the other!

Trust men to make an issue of a particular verse taken out of context, and then blame God for the consequences, simply because they lack the proper knowledge of what was actually meant.

And how does the giving of blankets relate to washing of hands? Were the blankets deliberately infected by the missionaries to kill off the indigenous peoples? Or did the blankets become infected by being handled by people who had unwashed hands? Or were the blankets infected by having been previously used to cover sick people?

According to your argument, the blankets would have been hygienic if the people had simply washed their hands, ignoring the hygienic effects of laundering the infected blankets.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Maigret
a reply to: OptimusSubprime

You stated that Jesus is Jehovah; so tell me how Jesus is the Father of himself?

This is highly illogical - and goes against the Scriptures, which define God Almighty as the Father of the Son.

God Almighty existed before Creation, and yet the Son was the first-born in Creation [Colossians 1:15], so they can't be the same identity. God SPOKE creation into being, so the first thing out of God's mouth (so to speak), was His WORD.

Hence John 1:1, which if you take it as describing, in reverse, the process of speaking, you have: the Son being part of God, then with God, and then as, the Word of God.

Also, this would explain how 'before Abraham, I AM'. Note: he specifically qualified the 'I AM', with 'before Abraham'.

There's so much more...

If you're looking for logic in myths, you won't find it. Quoting a myth in attempt to find logic is the ultimate in illogic.

Huh? The Bible - a myth? Nah... you have to be kidding me! That's your whole argument? And you 'think' that is logic?

If it's not myth, what is it? It's certainly not fact. Let's start with the Bible's foundational claims: (1) God exists. (2) God created everything. (3) Jesus lived. (4) Jesus is a supernatural deity. There's not an iota of testable evidence proving any of those claims of fact. Therefore, they are not fact. All stories about supernatural deities are myths. That's the definition of myth used by mythologists. If you wish to dispute that the Bible is myth, cite the testable evidence that proves those four foundational claims.

You're quoting one or two 'foundational' claims that are in error!

Yes, YHWH exists and YHWH did create everything! These are facts. The Bible is YHWH telling us what is going to happen to our generation! This was not applicable to any other generation that has existed before us, which is why the Bible has never been properly understood, up until now!

No, Jesus did not live, and is not a supernatural deity. These last two claims are made by [church] men, and are false.

Testable evidence? I can only 'see' these things because of the Holy Spirit of God - and now I have to attempt to give you that same 'vision'. I doubt that I can - but you've stung me into trying.

Consider all of these posts here... they are all about whether or not, Jesus is God. This is the visible and pivotal proof /evidence of the Antichrist.

Satan's whole game is to be worshipped as though he were God, and since he can't do it directly, he is doing it vicariously, and he is also mimicking God while he's at it. Thus his son is Judas Iscariot, the man of sin / son of perdition, 'resurrected' as Jesus.

God allows this because it suits His own purposes - which is to have His 'wheat crop threshed' in the Tribulation. This will be done by Christians [Jesus followers] hating and killing God's people, the Israelites, who follow Yeshua - for refusing to 'bend knee and worship' their god 'Jesus'. We will all see this in our lifetime - and this ultimately will be my proof!

The difference between the two 'sons' is that Yeshua is 'kosher Jewish' High Priest / Lamb / Son of God, leading his followers in worship of YHWH on the Sabbath and at other Biblical festivals, while Jesus is Christian deity, God the Son, second person of the Trinity, worshipped at Easter and Xmas.

Most people mix these two characters up - but can you 'see' the differences? If the Bible was a myth, this wouldn't be a readily discernable fact.

The Catholic Church is the source of the Latin name 'Jesus', and the main source of other pagan activities, such as Easter and Xmas. Also their priests, if they really did believe in an all-seeing and ever-present deity, would not engage in paedophile activities - or others of them, in thinking they can hide or cover those activities up. The upshot of this is that you can safely and totally eradicate any idea that this church is 'religious' in any way, and discount all their beliefs/claims. Including your assumption that their belief in Jesus is a Biblical foundational truth.

Do you think I would get these insights from the Bible out of my own intelligence? No ways!! YHWH exists, and is the Source of my religious information.

originally posted by: Rustami
a reply to: Tangerine

He has audibly spoken to me and again just as the NT says is much more than "one iota"

Prove it.

a reply to: Maigret

You haven't cited an iota of testable evidence in response to my request. Therefore, your claims are just that, claims, not facts.

originally posted by: Rustami
a reply to: Tangerine

Jesus has been raised from the dead, is invisible, immortal and eternal.. just as the New Testament declares.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life John5

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Respectfully Charlie, the bible is so schizo in its wide variety of
'teachings' and quotes that people are free to pick and choose what they want to believe from it. Thas why there are soooooo many Christian churches and denominations.

This was my issue with Christianity when I was searching for answers...The fact that Christianity is humanising god, when in fact god is above his creation.

I came to the conclusion that the Trinity was concocted to divide up god, to humanise god so man's ego wouldn't have to deal with the reality that god is far beyond what any of us can comprehend or understand and the fact that god doesn't need anything from us, we need god.

As a Muslim I believe in Jesus the Christ, in his miracles, one of which (in Islamic tradition) is that Jesus spoke as an infant to defend Mary against her accusers, as the Spirit of God, giving his first sermon however these were to remind people of god, to lead them to god, as Jesus was telling his people to do.

However I am not here to criticise Christians as many of my close friends are Christians however the only thing I differ on is Trinity i.e. idolizing the Jesus name and person as a god.

Spirituality is the same and I believe Jesus to be a Prophet sent by god to do god's work i.e. to lead men out of dredges of the worldly life and into onto the path of salvation, the realms of spirituality. We are all the same spiritually just our methods are different, for me my path is one of Deeds and Faith.

Peace.

a reply to: Maigret

+1 great post

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
John 20:17

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Matthew 27:46

"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Mark 10:18

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

John 14:28

"The Father is greater than I."

Acts 7:55-56

"But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

So what's all the hubbub???

Why is it that people associate Jesus as God when quite clearly these verses refute such a claim...

& many more attest to this...

I'm hoping others will share to add to the collection...
Not through laziness, but so others can get involved...

Where & why do people conceive the notion that Jesus is God?


My personal favourite...

Our father, who art in Heaven...
Hallowed be thy name...
Thy kingdom come...
Thy will be done...
On Earth as it is in Heaven...
Give us this day our daily bread...
& forgive us our trespasses...
Etc...
I'm sure you know the rest...

How about that ATS... Jesus was praying for forgiveness as well...
Please do not use this thread to bait or troll Christians...
It's a serious question, keep your replies respectful even if you disagree with one another!!!


Peace!!!

Jesus is as much God as you and I, the difference is he -knew- what we still don't understand about ourselves.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

The message of Jesus wasnt about being a God. All he said is that we are all sons and daughters of the father. He took on the title "son of man". That is a title with deep seeded meaning and biblical context.

He was also the last sacrificial lamb. He was the last high priest.

Then, only the high priest was allowed to be in close proximity to the holy of hollies. The Catholic equivalent is the host in the sacrarium that is signaled as being present by a red light.

Jesus removed from humanity the need to use intermediaries to reach God. There is no reverence given but to God himself. Not things or works of man. Nothing is worthy compared to God unto YOU. Would you thank the child of the master of the house or his parent for having invited you to his home?

Jesus is God the way we all are. We are part of creation. We form part of the family of creation. We are as sacred as every animal and mountain is to the family of creation. We are as sacred as any temple prophet, priest or book. We are all creation and as such less unto God.

Is a hammer greater than the house it builds? Why praise the tools of God (sacred text and prophets) when the home he builds is what we should be keeping sacred to us.

Are you not everyday trying to reach a closer proximity to all that is God? Is that not an expression of your very nature?

Jesus too sought after a closeness to God and revealed to us all HIS path towards the father. It was like that of a child unto his family and all they were, are and will be. God is still God. Jesus is as us. All of man is human and divine in the way that we are both our parents children and our siblings brother /sister as well as our own person. We ARE our family and ourselves. I am not my father but I am his son. I am not my siblings but I am their brother. My other half is myself as well.

We are sons of God. God created it all. That much is agreed. That force, intelligence, warmth is the journey. Jesus is a bridge. He is a bridge to the "way" that is God.

All that said,

ALL organized religion on earth has been corrupted to a significant degree by an evil not limited to any form of expression. Proprietary systems of spirituality where access to God is limited to special representatives of God have become OWNERS of God and not vessels of God. I speak of those religions that require you to pay homage to specific things or people in order to be a part of Gods people. Those that require all to perform ritual with these leaders and focal point tools.

I am referring to those religions that make you perform direct actions in your personal life in order to be close to God. Not because these practices will teach you other means of being close to God. No. These religions require you do these things in your life because it is a trivial rule that these religions have clung onto whose purpose and justification change with the person interpreting it and according to a temporal convenience of power and rule every couple hundred years. Thats not honest. It is BS.

We must learn the truth as we see it in our hearts and always be true to what we are. No man should worshiped. No mortal man should be trusted with your immortal soul as you have discovered it.

God and you. Thats it. All else is creation like you and is under God. Be true and aim for true spirituality. Give yourself to ALL that is in you.

All ritual and tradition is only as valid as the experience it affords the practitioner. It is as a crutch. Eventually spirituality must return to the natural expression of its nature. Spirituality hould one day be self celebrated with all intent directed towards all and all things instead of being as it is when it is still yet being developed. Spirituality is predominantly celebrated with all and all intent towards the self. This is natural when you still cant see the rest of creation in relation to God or yourself.

God is not a fair and no one is selling tickets. There is no "paradise for dummies" book, though both those who oppose sacred scripture and those who believe in it but misunderstand it..... would both say scripture is just that. A golden ticket.

Genuine spirituality is required. Repeating formulas in your own words is not thinking freely. If your not thinking freely you have to ask what mortal man is controlling your mind? Your sacred mind. The same one that creation endowed you with? Its not God molding your mind. God doesnt need to control your mind. That is your burden. Your cross.

We must face God alone. No church, sacred person or religion will ever substitute a true heart in God. Being in unity with your fellow creation sets your place near God like being in balance with your family provides strength and warmth and sets your place in yourself.

Your proximity to God is only as limited as your will towards all things. You dont need some priests permission to go near to God.

Remember, God didnt kick us out of the Garden of Eden. Thats the telephone effect across continents, centuries of linguistic evolution and misinterpretations every so often.

In the beginning; We removed God from our own closeness to God. Our actions and thoughts betrayed our nature and the highest expression of all things in us was placed out of our reach by our own hand. We ran from the Garden hiding ourselves in fear remember?

We are the prodigal son. We were not cast out. We cursed our fathers house. Only we and our own hearts can remedy that. Only we alone can choose to be home and at peace with our family /nature. No one can force your heart. They can only pervert your mind.

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: Maigret

You haven't cited an iota of testable evidence in response to my request. Therefore, your claims are just that, claims, not facts.

I was worried about that... you can't 'see'. No worries.

a reply to: old_god

Not the sort of reply I was expecting. Thank you!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

we all worship the God of Abraham!!!

Fair enough, but of coarse that is not Jesus.
I agree with you Jesus is not the Almighty God.
Here is a point for all to research, and some my already know the answer....Jesus is a human earthly name; what was his personal name before he came to earth? What is Gods personal name? Two distinct personal names equal two distinct spirit beings that are separate from one another, yet perfectly united in thought and action. Think about it, Jesus has spent more time with God than any other being, longer than the age of the universe, so lets say 15 billion years. He knows exactly how he thinks in all aspects, and he knows what he would do in all situations. It is a perfect unity, but they are separate beings. Being one in unity of thought is expressed for people getting married, it sure isn't talking about physical intimacy.
See Mark 10: 6-7

But from the beginning, God made them male and female." 7"Because of this a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife." 8"And the two shall be one flesh; after that they are not two, but one flesh."

If Jesus used this ideological example for a united man and woman, it stands to reason he used it on himself and his father, every time he said he and his father are one. It was pretty simple for the Jews back then he was preaching to, he was on earth right in front of them, and his Father God was in heaven. Really simple.

What Trinitarians have done is employed cognitive dissonance on this topic, it's emotional to them as well.
Critical thinking is required, to break dogma some old men made up in the 4th century. 16 centuries of man made tradition is extremely hard to break, but it is not truth, and that is the reality.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Here's how...

"What does it mean that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega?"

www.gotquestions.org...

a reply to: Deetermined


It really shouldn't cause much of a conflict in understanding that the Son of God would also consider His Father, God, as in God almighty.

Notice shortly after this quote..."I go now to My God and Yours" that Tomas fell down at His feet and said "My Lord and My God" and wasn't reproved by Jesus for so doing. Wasn't told to stop and get up like Daniel was when he fell down at the arch-angles feet.

a reply to: Logarock

Yes, the same reason we see this verse in the OLD Testament...

Exodus 6:3

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

I always find it funny when people try to attach common sense, and logic, to religious texts. It's not something that is going to end well.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Logarock

Yes, the same reason we see this verse in the OLD Testament...

Exodus 6:3

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Ooo good one. By the way if you look, there appears to be several entities at the burning bush.

a reply to: Murgatroid

God never gets born as human. Only souls get born as human. The almighty God has no need to be born as human.

All souls are alike. There is no difference in Jesus and you. The only difference is evolution or purity of soul due to which soul acquires some (not all) qualities of God.

The Sanskrit word "tapa" refers to effort by humans that make a soul pure and give supernatural powers to humans.

Stop believing that God is your Father. God is the Creator not Father. Humans have no qualities of God. Non-spiritual humans are actually worse than animals.

originally posted by: Catacomb
I always find it funny when people try to attach common sense, and logic, to religious texts. It's not something that is going to end well.

You are quite right, though attaching wisdom would be good