US admits the war for �hearts and minds� in Iraq is now lost

Hey Moku, welcome to America. If you want my advice, take some kung fu classes and learn to sleep with one eye open j/k. ~Even I know Moku is in China~

Well that's the problem. Everything seems to be a "war" to us. We should just try to keep the peace until the Iraqi elections, train an army to defend their country, and then bring our troops home.

Without the hearts and minds of the people what hope do you think they will have of creating a peaceful situation under they're control before elections?

Also how many Iraqi's do you think will be willing to join an Iraqi military under the training and command of the Americans... not many I would assume.

LOL!

As if a country like the US could win a single heart or mind ANYWHERE without a whole load of a) revising history b)propaganda and/or just plain lying and c)handing out loads of $$$.


It dosen't matter what the locals think they just need to stand there and get shot at thats what poor brown people are for after all. As long as the US army keeps popping caps Bushes gun buddies are making bucks. And thats what matters, bushes gun buddies selling guns...

Oh and in this particular case the added bonus of bringing home oil.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by JaruselehI don't know about you, but if I had a choice of dieing by a bullet to the head, or nerve gas, I'd take the bullet. The difference between the US and Sadam is we're there to help. Yes, people are dying. Yes, civilians are dying. No, we're not happy about this, but they are casualties of war. It happens in every war. So it's either A.) die with the hope that your country and some of your family who are still alive might see better days, or B.) Die a miserable death with no hope of anything for your family. Some things are worth dying for.

You are correct, they are casualties of war, a one-sided war. None one of those killed or incarcerated from the Muslem side stated this war against you, you started it. It is an act of war because your side first called it such because they didn't dare call it an unwarranted invasion, how else to get those to march in lock-step as to call it a war? Actually, I don't even think war was declared. If you didn't go in there shooting up these people, then you wouldn't have to worry about using the ruse of defense now, would you?

Bin Laden declared war on the US. And like you, he is probably of the same belief that the civilians killed on 9/11 are just casualties, and wonders why their families just don�t so get over it. Makes perfect sense the way you see it, n�est-ce pas?

21 months later, and supporters of this heinous invasion andoccupation are still making apologist statements, obviously to soothe their own anxieties over same.

Ok, re-read my post. No one is happy that civilians are dying. But when this is all said and done, iraq will no longer be under the rule of a dictator who butchers his own people for the sake of his own sick pleasure. Those people were tortured, and I'm not talking about getting a few humiliating pictures taken of them. In the long run, this is a good thing for that country. Those people had absolutely NO hope of a better life before we got there. At least now, once our job there is done, and we leave, they will have a chance at something better. I know that's the not the main reason we're there fighting, but it is ONE of the reasons.

Compare it to the American civil war, if you will. many people died in that war, and I'm sure there were countless civilians who died in the war. Had that war not taken place, we'd probably still have black slavery in the USA. But because the north won, the blacks were freed, and slavery was abolished. Again, many lives were lost, but it was for a greater good. I think everyone today agrees that the Civil War was ultimately a good thing for this country, despite the massive loss of life. I believe this is the same in Iraq. Of course it looks horrible now. It's war. But 50 years, 100 years from now, the Iraqi's will look back at this and will be glad it took place.

Originally posted by Becky

You have already said that you think Hussein was not a horrible dictator. Now you are defending honor killing, the murder of women.

You don't deserve the freedoms of the American flag you live under.

And neither you, killing under the American flag in false pretenses of liberty and freedom in another country to me is the same as soiling the good name of the US and my name also.

So you don't deserve either the freedoms of the American flag you live under whenever you support the killing of innocents in another country.

I care less what you say anymore. Go join the ranks of the ones like you that hide under patriotism to excused senseless killing of others.

I'm confused i would of thought the US military wouldnt have published something like this. I thought that as soon as you give up that pursuit then you lose a vital element.

by Jaruseleh
No one is happy that civilians are dying. But when this is all said and done, iraq will no longer be under the rule of a dictator

Wakey, Wakey. Saddam is in gaol and has been for quite some time. Why don't you try explaining that to children like Ali Ismail Abbas

Those people were tortured, and I'm not talking about getting a few humiliating pictures taken of them.

I wonder if you would still have the same attitude if it had of been you they were "humiliating". I suppose you agree to the torture going at Gitmo as well?

At least now, once our job there is done, and we leave, they will have a chance at something better.

Now you're talking sense. You admit that Iraqi's will be better off when the "Coalition of the Killing" leave Iraq.

Compare it to the American civil war

There is no comparison between a civil war and the illegal invasion of another country.

Originally posted by Jaruseleh... But when this is all said and done, iraq will no longer be under the rule of a dictator who butchers his own people for the sake of his own sick pleasure. Those people were tortured, and I'm not talking about getting a few humiliating pictures taken of them.

You would think by your post that all Iraqis were tortured. aside from which, torture is torture it just has varying degrees. Comparing it to pictures I'm afraid is just another excuse, since those pictures showed disgusting acts perpetrated against foreigners on their soil yet. And what they didn't show we know a bit of, but we don't know all of the sordid and gruesome details do we? for congress decided that the public is better off not knowing that information. Considering that the only reason we know of those pictures is because of a whistleblower, it is very likely that much more is committed.

In the long run, this is a good thing for that country. Those people had absolutely NO hope of a better life before we got there. At least now, once our job there is done, and we leave, they will have a chance at something better. I know that's the not the main reason we're there fighting, but it is ONE of the reasons.

It is purely a guess to say they will be better off, and a bad one at that, since Britain had the same argument decades ago. "Those people" despite the propaganda that fills you, had a fairly decent life, and a life far better than they have had for the last 20 months, a 20 month span filled with inflicted misery, pain, loss of life, shelter, water, food, all at the hands of foreigners who present that nonsense to them as being liberation for a better life. I can't imagine a better life ahead of me if my home was destroyed, I had no job, and all my familiy members especially my children were killed. Can you? I sure as heck would not be sitting there in my misery and despair thinking about future generations either. This type of bombast about it being better for them is equivalent to sleazy salesmanship, for Hussein wouldn't have lived forever, and there is nothing to say that the citizens themselves would not eventually turn against him and his sons, as they do you now turn against the tyrannical invader. Obviously then your analogy is lacking veracity.

Compare it to the American civil war, if you will.

Exactly correct, and see above. The Iraqi citizens, just as the Americans, would handle the internal conflict themselves, and then decide amongst themselves how to move forward. No amount of despotism will cause a people to not rise up, and certainly not Muslems as their history teaches us. Other than that this analogy also fails to support the foreign invasion that you deemed to be in need of saving, since the last time a foreign force came onto your soil to save you from your wayward way of life as they saw it, you fought like maniacs to throw them out.

And that is how you should be basing your comparison .

Well DUH...

Have they only just realised?

Talk about stating the blindingly obvious