Do you believe in The Merciful God/The Most High Jesus prayed to on The Cross or another god (wrathf

a reply to: Tangerine

Too funny.

OK, here we go again.

Josephus was born in 37 AD, only 4 years after Jesus died. But Josephus WAS alive when James was on trial. Josephus was living in Jerusalem when James was on trial. Josephus calls him the brother of Jesus Christ.

Please try to get around that one again. Do we know that Josephus lived? Why yes, he had children.

Josephus' mother was a member of the Hasmonean Dynasty. Was that real? Why, yes it was. Josephus recorded the events of the days he was living and not only that, as member of the Hasmoean Dynasty he give details of what life was like in the court and in Judea.

The very fact that a member of the wealthiest family in Judea, living in Jerusalem at the time of Christ, mentions Jesus in his book as the brother of James, then we have to conclude that the educated historian knew what he was talking about. And not only that, his father and brother were both high priests.

Do you get now the historical context? A member of the same family that sentenced Jesus to be executed by the Romans, gives his name in Antiquities of the Jews.

Josephus mentions that his family had connections to the Sadduccees, who comprised the sanhedrin. That's the same sanhedrin that put Jesus on trial. The very fact that Josephus mentions Jesus is vindicated. And not only that, Josephus gives details of the same people mentioned in the Book of Acts, and this document is still available today.

But the chain of literature since Antiquities, are still surviving today. It really becomes now difficult to prove that Jesus did not exist when every piece of literature from the first century quotes from a previous.

No, nothing about Jesus was invented in the 4th century. Even the family of Josephus was involved in the trial of Jesus and James, they were the ruling political body in Jerusalem and Josephus mentions the same people, why? Because he knew them.

a reply to: Akragon

Scripture tells you he is one with God... John tells you he was God in the flesh...

Paul... Well I don't give a hoot what he said

Jesus said he was Gods son... Not God in the flesh... so it depends on who you believe

Well they misunderstood what he meant... You might notice even today Jews will not even type the word God... Any association with God is blasphemy to the jews... HE was actually executed for sedition...

But he did not ever claim to be God... he even denies it in Johns gospel

Son of God... Not God

so the absolute perfect truth isnt absolute at all. whats the point of debating it when even christians cant decide amongst themselves. makes it feel less like a religion and more like a custom lego kit.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: WarminIndy

i dont know what to tell you about any of that. my point was that taking inspiration from a character fictional or nonfictional is all groovy but offering your soul to them in exchange for eternal life is another matter entirely.

the difference between jesus and josephus, i guess.

The primary difference between Jesus and Josephus is that Josephus actually lived and there is zero historical evidence (ie. contemporaneous documentation) proving that Jesus lived. It's high time that we start regarding Jesus as the fictional character he is.

then start a thread

The title of the thread asks if I believe in Jesus. My posts are on topic or are you suggesting that only cult members are welcome to post here?

i will begin by suggestion that you tone down the attitude and lower your hackles. this is not a dog fighting pen so theres no need to act like it. i will end by suggesting that you take your claim of jesus' existence being disproven and put it to good use by starting a thread or adding to an existing oneand contributing your data to the forums in a productive and constructive manner.

either way, i can sense your intent to be offended so i'll leave you alone for now. i do hope youll take my suggestions to heart.

I suggest that you start a thread called "For the worship of Jesus. No unbelievers welcome." I'm not at all concerned that the thought of having to backi up claims of facts with evidence traumatizes some people. If I were easily offended, you can bet that I would be kneeling at the altar with the rest of the herd instead of speaking up in opposition to blind belief.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: WarminIndy

i dont know what to tell you about any of that. my point was that taking inspiration from a character fictional or nonfictional is all groovy but offering your soul to them in exchange for eternal life is another matter entirely.

the difference between jesus and josephus, i guess.

The primary difference between Jesus and Josephus is that Josephus actually lived and there is zero historical evidence (ie. contemporaneous documentation) proving that Jesus lived. It's high time that we start regarding Jesus as the fictional character he is.

then start a thread

The title of the thread asks if I believe in Jesus. My posts are on topic or are you suggesting that only cult members are welcome to post here?

i will begin by suggestion that you tone down the attitude and lower your hackles. this is not a dog fighting pen so theres no need to act like it. i will end by suggesting that you take your claim of jesus' existence being disproven and put it to good use by starting a thread or adding to an existing oneand contributing your data to the forums in a productive and constructive manner.

either way, i can sense your intent to be offended so i'll leave you alone for now. i do hope youll take my suggestions to heart.

I suggest that you start a thread called "For the worship of Jesus. No unbelievers welcome." I'm not at all concerned that the thought of having to backi up claims of facts with evidence traumatizes some people. If I were easily offended, you can bet that I would be kneeling at the altar with the rest of the herd instead of speaking up in opposition to blind belief.

im not a believer, so you are barking up the wrong tree. but there is a distinctly antagonistic tone to your posts now. i'll just leave you to it.

a reply to: TzarChasm

so the absolute perfect truth isnt absolute at all. whats the point of debating it when even christians cant decide amongst themselves.

Christians can even make up their minds on their own theology... which is why theres so many different sects of that religion...

IF they all read and followed the gospels there would be ONE religion... which I would be part of...

sadly this isn't the case...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

so the absolute perfect truth isnt absolute at all. whats the point of debating it when even christians cant decide amongst themselves.

Christians can even make up their minds on their own theology... which is why theres so many different sects of that religion...

IF they all read and followed the gospels there would be ONE religion... which I would be part of...

sadly this isn't the case...

and yet we unbelievers are expected to just magically convert to such a severely fractured 'truth'...huh. right.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

so the absolute perfect truth isnt absolute at all. whats the point of debating it when even christians cant decide amongst themselves.

Christians can even make up their minds on their own theology... which is why theres so many different sects of that religion...

IF they all read and followed the gospels there would be ONE religion... which I would be part of...

sadly this isn't the case...

Let me jump in here...

No Christian claims to know absolute truth. We do say that there is truth that is absolute, but we cannot fully know it now.

No Christian can rightly claim to know absolute truth, because we are people. Those who do proclaim to know absolute truth usually end up becoming cult leaders. We can know truths, but to us, God is absolute truth but God has never given absolute truth to people, we only know some truths.

a reply to: TzarChasm

and yet we unbelievers are expected to just magically convert to such a severely fractured truth...huh. right.

I can confidently say I've never said that in my entire life...

Why would I suggest converting to a religion I myself have left because of the very people who are a part of said religion?

What I would suggest is to read the bible for yourself and decide what is correct and what is not...

Theres plenty of garbage in the book... but the gospels are truth... Well at least HIS words are

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

so the absolute perfect truth isnt absolute at all. whats the point of debating it when even christians cant decide amongst themselves.

Christians can even make up their minds on their own theology... which is why theres so many different sects of that religion...

IF they all read and followed the gospels there would be ONE religion... which I would be part of...

sadly this isn't the case...

and yet we unbelievers are expected to just magically convert to such a severely fractured truth...huh. right.

You know, that's what Pilate asked Jesus "What is truth?"

But here is the conversation...

33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 38Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

The first question "Are you king of the Jews?" to which Jesus questioned, "did you reach this conclusion on your own or did others tell you?"

Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world". He even says to the man about to execute Him "you say that I am a king". In other words, Jesus is saying "You are the one who is saying I am king, but of a kingdom not of this world".

What is truth? Have you reached the conclusion that you know truth or are you still seeking truth?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

and yet we unbelievers are expected to just magically convert to such a severely fractured truth...huh. right.

I can confidently say I've never said that in my entire life...

Why would I suggest converting to a religion I myself have left because of the very people who are a part of said religion?

What I would suggest is to read the bible for yourself and decide what is correct and what is not...

Theres plenty of garbage in the book... but the gospels are truth... Well at least HIS words are

i already have. found other spiritual systems that give the same message without all the red tape and junk. golden rule and all the jazz.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

so the absolute perfect truth isnt absolute at all. whats the point of debating it when even christians cant decide amongst themselves.

Christians can even make up their minds on their own theology... which is why theres so many different sects of that religion...

IF they all read and followed the gospels there would be ONE religion... which I would be part of...

sadly this isn't the case...

and yet we unbelievers are expected to just magically convert to such a severely fractured truth...huh. right.

You know, that's what Pilate asked Jesus "What is truth?"

But here is the conversation...

33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 38Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

The first question "Are you king of the Jews?" to which Jesus questioned, "did you reach this conclusion on your own or did others tell you?"

Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world". He even says to the man about to execute Him "you say that I am a king". In other words, Jesus is saying "You are the one who is saying I am king, but of a kingdom not of this world".

What is truth? Have you reached the conclusion that you know truth or are you still seeking truth?

jesus admits he has a kingdom. jesus admits this kingdom is not of this world. he has therefore admitted that he is king of another world. either he is an alien or he is a god. its not a hard riddle to solve.

as for truth...the quest for truth never ends.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Is a King a god?

It seems you've left out one option...

And im happy for you that you've found something that works for you

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

Is a King a god?

It seems you've left out one option...

And im happy for you that you've found something that works for you

a king is a god depending on what culture you look at. and if jesus was right, then there are other cultures to look at as well. cultures that you dont find on earth.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

Is a King a god?

It seems you've left out one option...

And im happy for you that you've found something that works for you

a king is a god depending on what culture you look at. and if jesus was right, then there are other cultures to look at as well. cultures that you dont find on earth.

The kingdom of God is peace, joy, love and righteousness in the Holy Ghost. Jesus was saying that His kingdom, not of this world, is not a physical kingdom, but a spiritual.

The first message Jesus preached when he came out of the wildnerness

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

, then He went into the synagogue and the Torah was handed to Him (this is called a minyan) and opened up to Isaiah and read

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The prophet had proclaimed it, Jesus fulfilled it. But when people say they believe what Jesus said, the first message was repent.

You can't just go to that Kingdom in another culture, it doesn't exist there, He says

John 3:5King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The only way in, be born again of water and of the Spirit.

I know that a spiritual kingdom is too hard to grasp in a world that only perceives the natural. But the one who can perceive the spiritual, that is how you get understanding of truth. Because the truth is, this natural world and natural man is doomed to die eventually.

What is truth? It is spiritual. You cannot understand it by natural means, your eyes can only see what is in front of it, your ears can only hear what is within your range of hearing, but the spiritual, that is transcendent. And that is where God is, in the transcendency, because He is beyond the natural and His kingdom is not a planet or another man-based culture.

And that transcendency is just beyond where you can feel with your hands. What do you feel when you put out your hand? Do you feel air? Do you feel the elements that make up the air? Do you see the air?

But when you perceive beyond that, then it is supernatural. And this supernatural realm has been experienced by many people, even those who have denied the supernatural. Mind you, I am not saying paranormal here.

Supernatural means that it is above the natural, in other words, Above Top Secret.

a reply to: WarminIndy

It may be rewsonable to suggest that Jesus possessed superhuman gifts as a resut of practices unknown. As for being a god...that is reaching. Such is my position on the matter. Else I would hail David blaine and Kris angel as deities, as ancient cultures undoubtedly would have. Or maybe just emissaries of deities. Hard to tell.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: WarminIndy

It may be rewsonable to suggest that Jesus possessed superhuman gifts as a resut of practices unknown. As for being a god...that is reaching. Such is my position on the matter. Else I would hail David blaine and Kris angel as deities, as ancient cultures undoubtedly would have. Or maybe just emissaries of deities. Hard to tell.

Then you concede there is a supernatural if Jesus could possess superhuman gifts.

And both of those others practice the old illusionism of sleight of hand, they aren't really doing those things you know. So why didn't they worship Simon the Sorcerer in those days if it were the same thing?

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: WarminIndy

It may be rewsonable to suggest that Jesus possessed superhuman gifts as a resut of practices unknown. As for being a god...that is reaching. Such is my position on the matter. Else I would hail David blaine and Kris angel as deities, as ancient cultures undoubtedly would have. Or maybe just emissaries of deities. Hard to tell.

Then you concede there is a supernatural if Jesus could possess superhuman gifts.

And both of those others practice the old illusionism of sleight of hand, they aren't really doing those things you know. So why didn't they worship Simon the Sorcerer in those days if it were the same thing?

Superhuman, not supernatural. He exceeded the standard human range of functions. That's not necessarily supernatural unless he wore a magic amulet or drank a mystrious potion. No proof of either. Maybe we can do what he did if we figure out what practices he had indulgdd in prior to his miracles.

a reply to: TzarChasm

What does wearing a magic amulet have to do with anything?

Is there some kind of power in magic amulets and talismen? Some people think there is but as King Hezekiah said about the Serpent of bronze on the pole, Nehushtan!, it's just a piece of bronze.

Do you believe in the possibility of magic?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: TzarChasm

What does wearing a magic amulet have to do with anything?

Is there some kind of power in magic amulets and talismen? Some people think there is but as King Hezekiah said about the Serpent of bronze on the pole, Nehushtan!, it's just a piece of bronze.

Do you believe in the possibility of magic?

my point was that there is no proof jesus was in possession of supernatural powers. perhaps we are just mundane creatures who have yet to uncover the gifts he displayed. if of course he actually did display them.

i believe in the possibility of manipulating the underlying forces of this universe through methods both obscure and delicate.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: TzarChasm

What does wearing a magic amulet have to do with anything?

Is there some kind of power in magic amulets and talismen? Some people think there is but as King Hezekiah said about the Serpent of bronze on the pole, Nehushtan!, it's just a piece of bronze.

Do you believe in the possibility of magic?

my point was that there is no proof jesus was in possession of supernatural powers. perhaps we are just mundane creatures who have yet to uncover the gifts he displayed. if of course he actually did display them.

i believe in the possibility of manipulating the underlying forces of this universe through methods both obscure and delicate.

Did we converse on another thread about this?

But how does this relate to the OP?

Did Jesus manipulate the OT God in some manner? If God is perceived to be an underlying force, why would He specifically call out to that God? I think people in the system that you describe (very obliquely) don't usually call out on names unless they believe that entity actually exists, as more than just an underlying force.