Serviceman at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada alleges he was denied reenlistment for refusing to say

originally posted by: HomerinNC
a reply to: BasementWarriorKryptonite
It has as much credibility as Russia Today, it's a propaganda rag

Still find it better than fox "news"

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I am NOT incorrect... I didn't address the op at all OR it's constitutionality... I addressed your assertion that elected officials cannot pray etc... That is ludicrous to even insinuate that the constitution prohibits the free exercise of religion by ANYONE, ANYWHERE at ANY TIME whatsoever...

It specifically prohibits ANYONE from preventing ANYONE from exercising their freedom to practice their religion...

Jaden

originally posted by: Masterjaden

Sorry, saying it in public as you are describing regarding politicians etc.. is NOT forcing down your throats...You don't have the freedom FROM religion, only the freedom OF religion...

That depends.

It depends on where, and whether it is for personal reasons or who you are addressing.

I'm confused anymore. The guy was denied entry into the military for not saying the "God" thing in the oath and yet there are known Satanists in the military. The Presidio in San Francisco had a big shake up over higher ups that were found to be doing such and with children involved no less. I can remember seeing that one famous higher up walking the halls of Madigan Hospital in Ft. Lewis and he gave me the creeps.

I just don't get it. On the one hand, lots of flack anymore relevant to nativity scenes at Christmas and even over the use of the word Christmas and then this opposite dealy. Is some faction trying to confuse and divide us one way or another. Every Christian Holiday anymore has problems over what they do or use as symbols...like crosses and nativity scenes and even having the 10 Commandments removed from in front of court houses. Back and forth this stuff goes. Which is it supposed to be already. Separation of church and state...then, not...then variations thereof. Wasn't the Pledge of Allegiance even changed relevant to the God thing. First, things are one way, then another. Geez, already. Somebody needs to make up their mind as far as TPTB or whom ever is behind this back and forth dickering around.

I try to take a step back from stuff like that. If someone is unwilling to follow a simple order as, say 'God', what other orders will he not follow?

So the idea here is to force your religion of atheism on all the people who believe in some deity as a supreme being?

originally posted by: Masterjaden
I addressed your assertion that elected officials cannot pray etc...

I didn't make that assertion. Pay attention to whom you are conversing with.

My point to you is that we do have freedom from religion, in that we don't have to have religion. If elected officials want to pray, that's fine with me, as long as they allow prayers from all religions and don't respect an establishment of one religion over another.

originally posted by: thinline
I try to take a step back from stuff like that. If someone is unwilling to follow a simple order as, say 'God', what other orders will he not follow?

Saying "God" in the oath is not an order. In fact, it has already been resolved. See this post: www.abovetopsecret.com...

If a soldier gets an order in the military to do something religious, there's a bigger problem. Religion has no place in military orders.

originally posted by: tmeister182
So the idea here is to force your religion of atheism on all the people who believe in some deity as a supreme being?

Not at all. The idea is to give people a CHOICE. You are still FREE to say "God, Goddy, Goddy God God" if you want. And people who don't want to say that are FREE to leave it out.

How is giving people a choice "force"?

a reply to: shrevegal

Good post. The problem is that you have about half the people who wish to maintain separation of church and state, and then you have religious lobbies (and their supporters) who wish to merge religion and state, making this country a theocracy.

The religious lobbies support the Congressional members who make laws that dissolve the wall between church and state. Forcing religion into law gives the religions more power and the congress critters more money.

So it's a constant battle between those two groups.

a reply to: shrevegal

There is no issue with nativity scenes and 10 commandments on religious or private property.

The issue is on government property, like court houses or public parks. This involves separation of church and state as government is for everyone including non-believers.

Again, the issue here is the military is government. It can not force the use of god.

This is not the first time the Air Force has tried to force god, Christianity to be specific. The Air Force seems to be particularly abusive in this area.

Follow the money and power control. Religion is about control. It's about dictating how to live your life. Religion is a powerful political tool.

Sorry to say but church and state are supposed to be separate. The government itself should not propagate a certain religion. To insure everyone is treated equal. If there was an equal representation, Then we would have to many religions having prayers, not to mention you probably would not like the satanic religion represented. Besides it fails to represent those that don't believe by propagating the others. So it is not equal and should be abolished. Admit it if it was not your religion there and another yours being excluded from being there you would have a problem. So yes it is forced.a reply to: Masterjaden

originally posted by: derfreebie
a reply to: roth1

To clarify a little ...
the serviceman was an atheist, and refused to say
"so help me God" as part of his oath of service.

Seems like the problem is with existing US code, not the Air Force in particular:

The Air Force used to allow airmen to omit the phrase “so help me God” if they so chose. But an Oct. 30, 2013, update to Air Force Instruction 36-2606, which spells out the active-duty oath of enlistment, dropped that option. Since that quiet update to the AFI, airmen have been required to swear an oath to a deity when they enlist or reenlist.

The Air Force said last week that the change was made to bring its oath in line with the statutory requirement under Title 10 USC 502. The Air Force said it cannot change its AFI to make “so help me God” optional unless Congress changes the statute mandating the oath.

www.airforcetimes.com...

I've never been in the Air Force, but I've been able to opt out of the "God" part for the Navy, Army as well.

AR 601-280 “The Army Retention Program,” Appendix D Paragraph 2k, which states specifically that the reenlisting soldier need not swear to god. Or to USC 512 Title 28 (Revision June 25, 1948 ch. 646, 62 Stat. 925) which clarifies that an oath of affirmation excludes the “so help me god” portion.

It seems to me that (obviously) that requirement would be unconstitutional.

The governing regulation here is the Constitution Article VI Paragraph 3 “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office”. Given this freedom, do the following two things:

Use ‘affirm’ rather than ‘swear’ in the spoken oath and end prior to the ‘so help me god’ portion.
Line-out and initial the ‘so help me god’ portion on the written paperwork.
Contact MAAF if anyone threatens or has threatened your commission/enlistement/career in response to your request for these rights. MAAF can also coordinate for an officer willing to perform a secular enlistment or commissioning ceremony.

militaryatheists.org...

originally posted by: tmeister182
So the idea here is to force your religion of atheism on all the people who believe in some deity as a supreme being?

I see how that happens and I agree. However, giving a person the ability to opt out of mentioning god or gods on his official paperwork and his oat of enlistment is not doing that.

Mandating that nobody mention god during his oath would be that, but this is not.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: shrevegal

There is no issue with nativity scenes and 10 commandments on religious or private property.

The issue is on government property, like court houses or public parks. This involves separation of church and state as government is for everyone including non-believers.

Again, the issue here is the military is government. It can not force the use of god.

This is not the first time the Air Force has tried to force god, Christianity to be specific. The Air Force seems to be particularly abusive in this area.

Follow the money and power control. Religion is about control. It's about dictating how to live your life. Religion is a powerful political tool.

Article VI Paragraph 3

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

[url=http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html]http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html[/ur l]

An oath to the Constitution is required. Check.

No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust. Check.

Requiring an oath to god is thus unconstitutional under article VI. Seems cut and dry to me. This is not even a manipulation of the establishment clause in the First Amendment or extension of "separation of church and state" verbiage that isn't in the Constitution, it's right there--in black and white, direct, and to the point.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Thanks. I have read article 6 paragraph 3 before.

Hard to keep up when you have a life to live too.

Apparently states have tried to make it part of their constitution.

Just an update to this story, the Air Force has officially announced that "So help me, God" is optional in its oath.

After the incident with the Creech Air Force Base serviceman, described in this thread, the Air Force requested a legal opinion from the Department of Defense General Counsel and then changed its policy.

This article explains that this is not the first time the Air Force has "wiggled" on this topic. Seems someone keeps trying to insert it back into their oath as mandatory.

The Air Force has once again reversed course on a requirement that all airmen say "so help me God" as part of their oath.

The latest change comes a year after an airman at Montgomery's Maxwell Air Force base threatened to sue when he was told the reference to God was a mandatory part of his oath.
...
Then, earlier this month, the Air Force announced the phrase was a mandatory part of the oath and cannot be removed without Congressional action. That prompted complaints from an airman at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada, who had struck out the phrase on a form and refused to include them in his verbal oath. The Air Force said those actions delayed the processing of his paperwork.

The change will allow the enlistment papers for the Creech base airman to be processed immediately.

Source

On a side note, Pat Robertson has flipped out over this change and he's blaming Mikey Weinstein, of the of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, for the change. Robertson called him a "little Jewish radical" that is "terrorizing" the Armed Forces...

Well, first of all, it wasn’t just “one little guy.” It was Weinstein, and the American Humanist Association, and the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, and a lawyer for the conservative American Family Association, and right-winger Gordon Klingenschmitt who almost never says anything sensible.

I called up Weinstein to see if he had anything to say in response to Robertson — as if he ever didn’t have something to say — and he was even more blunt than usual:

“Pat Robertson is to human dignity and sanity and integrity and character what dog # is to a fine French restaurant on the menu.”

Can't say I disagree with him...

Source

Hopefully, this issue is settled for good now. The other branches of the military have said the phrase is optional for some time.

a reply to: roth1

This is nonsense. I'm a USAF veteran, there is a different oath for the non-religious.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I don't think that is correct. Both times I enlisted at meps the oath was the same for all services and I don't remember it changing for my re-enlistments.

If you mean different by not having to say the god part then OK I agree but both religious and nonreligious took the same oath with one omitting the "so help me god" part.

Doesn't matter anyway because this thing has been settled already where the USAF has come out and said they were in error and now the oath is taken where the "so help me god" part is optional.

originally posted by: roth1
refusing to say so help me God
Shows how much they break their own rules. Unconstitutional. You used to be able to take the oath to serve without forcing this belief in magical beings on some one. On On Oct. 30, 2013 that changed. Which way is this country going? Take that crap off our money. Don't let them pray to start congress. Don't even let a politician mention it when he is representing the people who voted them in. They should all be kicked out for violation their oath to uphold the constitution if they do this crap. Keep it at home or in your church. You have a right to believe, but you have no right to force it on others. Does anyone one care about the Constitution, Bill of Rights our civil liberties anymore?

Sorry it cut off when i pasted it tile was to long.

america.aljazeera.com...

And what gives you the right to ridicule other people's beliefs the way you have in this post?

Put the air force serviceman thing aside for a moment.
Because what you have done, is use that as an excuse to push YOUR beliefs on others by ridiculing their beliefs.

If you don't want to believe in God, if you want to believe that there is no God, and believe in something else, then go ahead, that's your right.

But don't go ridiculing others because they believe in the existence of God.
That's the problem with you athiests.
You cry and bitch and moan about others forcing their beliefs on people, but you think it's ok for you to force your beliefs in peoples faces while you ridicule what they believe in.
You call Christians and other religious groups hypocrites. Maybe you should take a look in the damn mirror once in a while.