Why the Americans are loosing in Iraq

Billy, I would actually LIKE to believe what you are saying. Its an interesting point of view and topic, not just reposted and copied news like most other posts here. BUT....You could be anybody posting anything. I find it hard to believe you dont see my point or care that people may not give what you say any credit without a little substance.

You know as well as I do there is ALOT of garbage out there. Even stuff with sources now days can be suspect. (Jihadunspun, Rense, Fox*, Dan Rather)

So..back to my point: Interesting topic from an un-substantiated source. If you are Ok with that so am I.















* Had to throw Fox in there. The "Dubya fan club" I like to call them.

Thanks for sharing your insight with us BTC

Having been a military brat most of my life, I can recall some of the idiocies of some "gifted" privates my father would relay to me from his duty time in North Korea and Zagreb...Pretty much all of them far too irresponsible and embarrassing for the army's reputation to mention here....(yeah...that bad! )

But I'd have to agree with you that it comes down to the quality of the soldier and the ability for them to carry out their duties which creates results in performing true team victory and doing the best to try to secure the hearts and minds of those being repressed by a foreign force....

I've seen some incredible men and women work together and do remarkable things for the military.....and I've also seen plenty of officers continually abuse their position of authority to gain some minor profit for themselves...

The military recruits at malls and high school graduations...They take trouble makers and turn them into disciplined fighting machines....

Unfortunately, You can put courage into a man, but you can't take the idiot out of them....


[edit on 12/6/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

Originally posted by skippytjc
Billy, I would actually LIKE to believe what you are saying. Its an interesting point of view and topic, not just reposted and copied news like most other posts here. BUT....You could be anybody posting anything. I find it hard to believe you dont see my point or care that people may not give what you say any credit without a little substance.

You know as well as I do there is ALOT of garbage out there. Even stuff with sources now days can be suspect. (Jihadunspun, Rense, Fox*, Dan Rather)

So..back to my point: Interesting topic from an un-substantiated source. If you are Ok with that so am I.

He went through a big discussion a few months back where he was asked to prove who he was and he's probably tired of it as that will topic will occupy much of the threads he posts in as people demand more proof.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by skippytjc
Can you back this up a bit?

I don't know why, but for some reason I trust Billy. He comes off as a no nonsence kind of guy, and I just don't see what he would be gaining by posting lies to this forum.

I don't have any clips of what you described but I do have one of a soldier really staring down an Iraqi kid about 12 or 13 years old and grabbing him by the shirt.

Patrol (11:21 min. July 20 2003)
U.S. military police from the 1st Battalion, 37 Armor Division in Baghdad, during their routine evening patrol in northern Baghdad.

www.actionla.org...

It's not really bad, in fact pretty tame, but if he's trying to act like a badass around a kid who seems to be doing nothing wrong, he's probably got that attitude around other people too.

The clip is still pretty interesting because of other parts, even though there's no 'action packed' scenes.

About 4 minutes in, one guy yells at some kids who may be begging, don't know for sure if that's what they're doing.

About 11 minutes in is when he grabs the kid and you see him staring the kid down.

Ahhhh.....well there's a 'catch 22' situation:

1/ I would rather have an MP5 in my hands rather than a camera when driving down the most dangerous road in the world.

2/ If you are seen filming or taking photo's by the US Mil they 'try' to take your camera. Though in this case I would have liked them to stop and try!.

3/ This whole incident lasted around 20 - 30 seconds max.

4/ You can not get distracted from your tasking.

I do take video and still pics as and when, but as I have already stated, do not post photos.

3 weeks ago, on the same road, a US patrol engaged a low profile, 2 car, Brit security team as the US Mil convoy over took them. They hit the rear and side of the lead car 12 times with a 5.56 Minimi (or similar). The PSD car was an armoured Merc 500SL, so withstood the engagement.

The security team identified themselves and followed the US patrol to their base. The reason the US Mil gave for opening fire was that they thought that the Merc was a VBIED (Vehicle Bourne Improvised Explosive Device / Suicide Bomber) The top gunner who opened fire could not justify his reason for opening fire and his patrol commander thought that the whole incident was funny!.

A report was filed and the security company are still waiting for the incident to be dealt with.

The term "Out of control" springs to mind?????

First, let me just say that the US Army Infantry are not the brightest stars in the sky. They are Infantry because they're not smart enough to do another job. However, as someone above posted, they are VERY good at what they do. You can't expect a bunch of 18-20 year old kids, with a highschool grade average of C- and lower to diplomatic. Their sole purpose while there is to kill people who are trying to kill them. My guess is that they were probably just trying to have a little fun (i'm not saying that's O.K., but that's my educated guess) due to being in such a crappy environment. I mean, these guys don't know if they're going to be alive from day to day. I'd probably be finding ways to entertain myself too if I felt like I was going to die at any given moment.

At any rate, my point is, don't generalize the entire american military based on a few experiences with the Army. I was in the Air Force for 4 years, so I know our military isn't "dumb", but I will grant you, there are verying degrees of intelligence throughout the military.

As far as them coming off as arrogant, they're trained that way. Sounds dumb, but as an infantry member, you HAVE to feel like you're better than everyone else. It removes the fear. When you feel like you can take on the world, you're less likely to piss your pants and cower in a corner when it comes time to fight.

I hope this was educational for you.

Originally posted by dbates
You have to at least graduate from high school to enlist in the US military.

But that hardly means that a person is educated. One can certainly be a high school graduate, especially in the US where people still wonder about teaching creationism in schools and worry about hurting students feelings by using red ink, and be largely uneducated. Heck, lots of them apparently can't even read, and even then lots more are hardly 'literate'.

Trying to get them to wear different hats is what's causing the problem.

This is actually something that the Britishers at least claim to be good at, having soldiers act as policemen. Besides, how are US soldiers acting as police men over there? They aren't working cases or investigating crime. Usually this soldier/police line is crossed when soldiers are used to 'police' large crowds. Police won't use lethal force without going thru a set of procedures, whereas soldiers only have lethal force as a response (more of less of course).

jaruseleh
You can't expect a bunch of 18-20 year old kids, with a highschool grade average of C- and lower to diplomatic. Their sole purpose while there is to kill people who are trying to kill them.

Which is precisely the reason everyone on every side of the situation should be doing their best to have these people removed from the country immediately, ie stop the insurgency and get involved in the re-establishment of a legitimate sovereign iraqi state. The longer the US Army is around the longer everyone is unhappy.

billythecat
then placed the Union Jack in our windscreen to indicate that we were a 'friendly' security patrol. The Top gunners laughed and sped off, but not before they had rammed 2 other Iraqi vehicles[..]Thank god that the Americans liberated Iraq from a dictatorship!

You prefered mass murder and rape as an interoggation and supression method to having your car rammed? Perhaps the american laughed when he realized that you were a britisher, not because of arrogance, but because he didn't know what the hell to think about a britisher sitting in traffic in downtown baghdad, or whereever. Besides, why shouldn't the pile thru every vehicle in their path when they are on the move? They are the Army, they are out on Army business, that is, killing people and defending other people. They certainly weren't going to slow down to let you get out of their way. And if everyone hates it, then whats the alternative? Shoot at them or join the rebellion? To do what, force them to stay? THe politics of the situation dictate that the Americans will be in Iraq until its 'sufficiently' peaceful and there have been a round of elections and law making. If the insurgents really wanted the Americans out, then they'd simply stop struggling, and fight the Iraqi National Army later on. Or hell, just organize and work to make the new Iraqi Republic work in accordance with whatever the heck they pretend to want.

So being rude and arrogant, well, I think that thats generally understood to be how americans over all act, especially when in foreign countries. The US isn't trying to make friends or have the iraqis say, 'gosh, what proper chaps those americans'. I think most people in the US would be happy if the iraqis said 'Those pig stupid americans, thank god they left a few months after the elections'.

jaruseleh
You can't expect a bunch of 18-20 year old kids, with a highschool grade average of C- and lower to diplomatic. Their sole purpose while there is to kill people who are trying to kill them.

Which is precisely the reason everyone on every side of the situation should be doing their best to have these people removed from the country immediately, ie stop the insurgency and get involved in the re-establishment of a legitimate sovereign iraqi state. The longer the US Army is around the longer everyone is unhappy.

Agreed, but how do you stop the insurgency without killing them all? They certainly don't listen to diplomacy. These factions have been fighting for years and years. How do you reason with sworn enemies?

Nygdan.......some interesting comments. By using the term "Britisher" I am assuming that you are not from the UK or US?

Not many people realise, but there are over 15,000 (yes fifteen thousand) 'civilian' security operators over here. Their backgrounds and level of expertise differ immensely, but no US soldier should be stunned to see a white face on the BIAP road!

As for interrogation and rape.........well rape under Sadam was virtually unheard of, unless of course you count Udays (spelling?) orgies over at the Palace. I guess that if you didn't go along with what he wanted you never left the building?. If you want to talk about abuse of people and prisoners lets look at Abu Ghurayb. It was only after the abuse by US soldiers surfaced at the prison surfaced that 'Westerners' started being beheaded. Once again a squad level supervision problem.

As for "US Army soldiers on Army business" that simply does not allow you to endanger life, either with a weapon or vehicle!

You will notice that throughout my postings I have never used the word "War". Lets all remember that the war ended when the Iraqi forces surrendered and Saddam took to hiding in a hole!

Civilians? They could also be called mercenary if they are part of the security team.

What a load of crap!. There is a big difference between a merc and a security op!

1/ Most of us come from an established military background with well respected military units.

2/ A good majority are educated to a high level. I hold a BSc and a BA.

3/ As from next year I will have to be licensed by the British Government (Security Industry Authority) to operate in my current field.

There are just a few things that spring to mind.

Now its your turn to justify your comments and it would be nice if you used more than one sentance when justifying your remarks

You are paid to market your "talent." That is a merc. Very profitable profession, although a few buried in Iraq has found out that they are paid accordingly for the risk.

How do u explain that u can't go out of the western Hemesphere for war according to your own constitution, how do u explain that there is NO WMD's and before the war many said U.S. is going infor Oil now 1 year 9 months later no WMD's?

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
How do u explain that u can't go out of the western Hemesphere for war according to your own constitution, how do u explain that there is NO WMD's and before the war many said U.S. is going infor Oil now 1 year 9 months later no WMD's?

Go here: www.cbsnews.com...


Read the WMD report for yourself. It's a L-O-N-G read, but You'll be shocked at what the writers of the "report" DON'T consider worthy of the WMD label.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by Toelint]

Originally posted by BillyTheCat
I'm sorry what you see is what you get. I don't play games, however I sure that there are a few people on this site who remember some of my posting on this site last time I was over here.

Becareful, lots of FreeRepublic.com people roam these halls, and they're crazy enough to do something, just for posting this type of thing here.

They're crazy.

Who the bloody hell are the Free Republic people????

If they want to take issue with anything that I say they are welcome to come to Baghdad.

Originally posted by BillyTheCat
Who the bloody hell are the Free Republic people????

If they want to take issue with anything that I say they are welcome to come to Baghdad.

The freepers are ultra conservative, pro war. Lot's of ex military and militia types mixed in. With military dissdents, people who speak out, they've been known to take things off the net and make their lives miserable. Of course, you're in Iraq, so what do you care?

Regardless, they're first class nutters.

Maybe I'm jumping in at the wrong point, but I got bored reading through the thread. (Too long for this early in the morning!)

As far as the 'safety' comparison between Jan 2004 and today, I see it as a positive. It simply means the 'insurgents' are feeling threatened.

They've been there this whole time. They are only now coming out, because so much of their network has been demolished (or disabled). Think of it like a 'bee hive'. The real threat, and the 'real' fight is when you are close to the 'queen'. That's when all hell breaks loose!

The education part: Well, again, you can look at it like a 'hive'. The higher (or closer to the queen) you go, the better 'equipped' you better be (bee, lol).

The military is the biggest organization in the U.S. They recruit many different people w/different educations, background, and intelligence. The largest part of the organization is made up of the fighters, (the ones who may have joined for education, money, honey, etc.) the higher you go, the better the education and dollars spent to recruit.

You're not dealing w/dummies here. Some of the most intellegent people in the U.S. is (or was) in the military! (It's the 'cloak' that'll get you everytime! Your believing they may be uneducated or unintellegent is a 'weakness'!) The U.S. is willing to spend top dollar to make it so.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by SourGrapes]

Well I wondered how long is was going to take before someone mentioned money. Sometimes, believe it or not, you simply can not make things better by throwing money at a problem. It comes down to attitude displayed by those responsible for solving a problem.

So you believe that the US is close to resolving the security situation here?. You also think that because the insurgents are fighting hard that they are almost beaten? All I have to say in ragards to your comments is "Northern Ireland"

Enough said I think