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What? Hawaii isn't a state?

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posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 12:43 PM
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In History class I learned that Hawaii was taken and annexed and turned into a state under some very shady circumstances. According to this and a few other websites, Hawaii isn't even a legal state:

www.whatreallyhappened.com...

Is this an example of the way the United States likes to do things? Or is this whole thing not even true?




posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 01:35 PM
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Well....As with Alaska, the reasoning behind the acquisition of Hawaii is not so glorious or noble....But anytime a nation acquires a new piece of land, when is it for a truly glorious or noble cause??

Apart from the fact that certain historical events can be viewed in favor or in opposition of any idea you'd like to spread, it is more important to look at this as a group of people advocating a cause as opposed to a mandate from the people of Hawaii...Considering Hawaii went red this election year, I'd say they're more "American" than this group wishes to admit....

Consider what the US really is....It's a union of States who have come together and agree to respect one another, behave civilly, and uphold the same federal laws....Other than that, being named a State is just a perk for receiving funding and contributing to our national debt - In that respect, I believe Hawaii falls just under Florida and California for generating tourist income....If it's seen as a chunk of land capable enough to help pay our bills, then it's a State to me....


[edit on 12/6/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 01:54 PM
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The direction that OHA (office of Hawai'ian Affairs) is taking is the legality of colonization. It's illegal to colonize another country and then annex it. This issue of Hawai'ian colonization and statehood has and continues to be pursued by OHA all the way up the The Hague. However, they have yet to receive a definate verdict. Although taken illegally, Hawai'i will never be returned to it's people and will remain a state. The fact is, the majority of Hawai'ians (and those of Hawai'ian descent) have issues with the mainland, however, have no problem remaining a state, and being part of the United States, the reason for this, is that it remains a separate culture from the rest of American society.

By the way.


Considering Hawaii went red this election year

Hawai'i remained blue.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by IKnowNothing
By the way.


Considering Hawaii went red this election year

Hawai'i remained blue.

Ooops....I could of sworn it went red....must have been day-dreaming...As I see now, they were almost 54% in favor of Kerry....

Sorry 'bout that...



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 02:07 PM
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It's as truthful... and as un-truthful as the other groups who want to declare their state to be "illegally held" by the United States. I think this particular bunch bases their material off the "Republic of Texas." There's also a "nation of Texas out there as well."

Here's a timeline and some research:
www.hawaii.gov...

A better biography of Queen Liliuokilani gives a somewhat fuller picture:
en.wikipedia.org...

Being a member of one of THOSE states that could declare independence (presumably) I can say that most here aren't in favor of giving up being a member of a first world nation to become a third world economy. Few nations split off from their "mother country" without consequence, and many struggle for long periods of time to achieve stability and a solid infrastructure.

The military contributes hugely to Hawai'i's economy. The state receives its share of federal funding and other benefits from statehood. Yes, there are downsides no doubt but on the whole they are far better off than most of the Pacific islands. The native people do want better recognition and to have some of their tribal issues (land, etc) dealt with... but I'm not sure that as a whole they want to abandon the idea of being a state of the US.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 02:07 PM
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No worries Enron, I always enjoy your posts. Hawai'i was looking to go red at the beginning (about 60% of the votes counted), but as the last few votes were counted, it shifted blue.

Edit: If the U.S. left Hawai'i, it would in fact become a third world country, similar to american somoa, American culture would remain and continue to influence the population of Hawai'i, but will never grow to become recognized as a prosperous nation.

[edit on 6-12-2004 by IKnowNothing]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 02:07 PM
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The fact that Sanford B. Dole and his thugs overthrew a kingdom in order to make it a territory of the United States is disgusting, but irrelevant.

We saw the same thing in Tejas, where the legal government invited Americans to settle there for huge free plots of land. All they had to do was to become Mexican citizens and obey the laws.

So Stephen Austin and his thugs moved there with the clear goal of lying to the Mexican government, getting the land, becoming citizens, and then rebelling with the goal of becoming an American territory (and insanely rich in the process).

That's the way the world works.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street
The fact that Sanford B. Dole and his thugs overthrew a kingdom in order to make it a territory of the United States is disgusting, but irrelevant.
That's the way the world works.


Agreed. How about the South? From the view point of a lot of us we were invaded and ocupied by the North. But right or wrong we are part of the Union now and barring another Blood bath will remain so. Just like the rest of the "land of the free"



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 02:58 PM
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an3rkist, if you are really interested in this subject you should read James Michener's Hawaii- it is one of my favorite all time reads and is an incredible account of Hawaii history. It will give you knowledge of the state, and it's people, that no other literature will, imo.
I lived in Hawaii for quite a while, and travelled all the state's islands (employment) with the exception of Neehau, The Forbidden Island. Did you know, that we are not allowed on Neehau? As an American, you cannot go there. Unless, you pay a tremondous fee, for a short trip, to the owners, the Swift's or Robinson's, I cannot recall the owner's name at this moment.
Hawaii is so different, and if you are white or a "haolee" (howl'-ee) this what they call newcomers..you will feel the prejudice of a very discriminating people. And, imo, they have reason to feel that way.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 03:17 PM
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Journey, I agree. Michener's "Hawaii" was an excellent book; indeed, i have all of his great novels (except for "Space" and "Kent State") and have read them all at least once.

However, you need to remember that "Hawaii" is not history; it is a novelization of history. The names have been changed; for example, the famous 442nd Infantry Battalion ("Go for Broke") is called the 222nd Infantry battalion in Michener's book, and none of the individuals' names (except for the famous ones like Kamehameha, Liliuokalani, Kalakaua, etc. are actual people.

On a personal note, I was living on Maui in 1951 when my kid brother was born. In the days before ultrasound, no one knew what sex he was gong to be; had be been a girl, my parents had picked Liliuokalani for him.

In Hawaii, Liliuokalani is a very common name for girls, because the Queen was one of the country's most loved and tragic figures. But in any event, he was a boy, and was given the middle name of Kalae, which means "south point".

Incidentally, the business about putting all the diacritical marks in Hawaiian names ("Hawai'i", "Lili'u'okalani", "Kalaka'u'a", etc. is a fairly recent one. Kamaainas (or "kama'i'anas" as I suppose they'd want to be called) -- that means "old-timers" -- knew that every vowel was its own syllable.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Journey, I agree. Michener's "Hawaii" was an excellent book; indeed, i have all of his great novels (except for "Space" and "Kent State") and have read them all at least once.

However, you need to remember that "Hawaii" is not history; it is a novelization of history. The names have been changed; for example, the famous 442nd Infantry Battalion ("Go for Broke") is called the 222nd Infantry battalion in Michener's book, and none of the individuals' names (except for the famous ones like Kamehameha, Liliuokalani, Kalakaua, etc. are actual people.


Yes, I should have stated this for the record, and thanks for the reminder. However, I found that combining history with his fictional side really made for a read that was, and this is my own opinion, very educational. I had been living there for a year, when I found the book- and he sure answered many questions for me. The past of Hawaii is not diccussed much, and I understand the fustration of the native islanders. I left Hawaii in 2002, after living there for almost 3 years. I lived on Oahu (Kailua)- and it is very different there.
The biggest problem there now is ice, and it is terrible. Have you seen Dog, The Bounty Hunter? All he does is chase what they call the chronics (ice addicts)- the problem is so bad there...if you google on 'ice hawaii' you will be surprised.The problem is so prevalent, from politicians, local police(yep) to the dopers on the street. I have traveled the world- and I never have been anywhere where I have seen so many people walking around talking to theirselves .
If you are going to Hawaii, please remember these words, that one of the first locals I met told me in Kauii. "Be careful, my friend, do not get lost in Paradise". Many people are lost there- and I remember his words so clear. only after I had been there a while was when I understood his words....



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 06:22 PM
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I like Ice - Hawaiian shave ice that is...


It is a sad story to their arguably questionable statehood, but I think there has been too much time and federal money poured in that there would be no way to undo it now, legal arguments aside. They give up the benefits of statehood for just what now?? No federal money (other than base leases), the ability to negotiate hundreds of trade agreements, grab the land and businesses back from howlie owners?

I'm glad they are a "state" and in my opinion it is paradise, I just can't see what they gain either economically or politically especially since old Bill "I did not have sexual relations" Clinton already said sorry....



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
The fact that Sanford B. Dole and his thugs overthrew a kingdom in order to make it a territory of the United States is disgusting, but irrelevant.
That's the way the world works.


Agreed. How about the South? From the view point of a lot of us we were invaded and ocupied by the North. But right or wrong we are part of the Union now and barring another Blood bath will remain so. Just like the rest of the "land of the free"


Preach it brother!!!!



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
Well....As with Alaska, the reasoning behind the acquisition of Hawaii is not so glorious or noble
[edit on 12/6/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]


Whats wrong with Alaska we paid good money for that land from Russia. Well 7.2 million dollars, or 2 cents per acre but we still paid for it.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Whats wrong with Alaska

To sum it up in two words? Andrew Johnson....


Certainly Alaska has proven to be a valuable asset with time....Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the forcing of the American eating style upon the Inuit, who were capable of remaning fit on a bizarre high fat diet that has fallen to the wayside thanks to the introduction of American food...thus obesity

But that's modern times....and more present in Canada and Greenland than Alaska...

Apart from appeals after Johnson's impeachment, there were many bribes paid off to the Republicans-that-be to fork over the money for Alaska....to who?....the Russians....A country that was so unstable and so money-hungry that it was like a domino tilting on the edge....Of course, we all know when and where they all fell...Did $7 million dollars really contribute to a hill of beans in the eventual outcome? Probably not, but if a butterfly flaps it wings....*shrugs*

[edit on 12/6/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 08:28 PM
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Well, I say give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians. A tiny island nation without the means to protect itself would become a prime target for any nation with an imperialist agenda. Then, we could see how happy the Hawaiians would be.

[edit on 04/12/6 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 09:43 PM
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Yeah yeah sure sure, and texas isn't a state either.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 09:59 PM
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I lived in Maui from 1946 to 1951, which meant up to second grade, and have been back five or six times since. We plan on going next year for a week of scuba diving.

But I lived in Micronesia from '51 to '61, coming of age, as it were.

Now there is a screwed up place! Originally it was a UN Trust Territory administered by the US (yes, we flew the UN flag, not the US flag, and celebrated Oct 24 rather than July 4). Now it is three "independent" countries, but they all rely very heavily on US aid to survive.

If you can figure that out, let me know. I sure can't!



posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 12:33 AM
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No matter the past circumstances, what's done is done, and history can't be changed. The way I feel is, I hope the United States remains united as 50 States (and D.C.), and that it remains strong and free.

We may be picking on the U.S. here, but you can single out any country on Earth and pick on how they acquired their current borders.



posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 03:04 AM
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Aaaahh the wonders of the new world... the licence to rape, pillage and annex all you want in the name of progress and developement.

Cute, but WRONG!



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