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Exploited by an employer then refused a good reference...revenge is sweet.

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posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:05 PM
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Torn on this one...

Having been shafted by a previous employer big time - because my face didn't fit with the new image/management style, despite working like a dog, I understand the desire for revenge.

I also think that if you cock up enough times then you deserve a dismissal.

There's been no mention of disciplinary process here, whatsoever. It's usually verbal warning, written warning, final written warning, dismissal. Unless you're talking gross misconduct - in which case summary dismissal can be justified.

That said, it all depends how long he had been working there, etc...

It's a minefield really. If they have fired him for repeated minor breaches of policy then I wonder what support or guidance has been put in place for him. Did he go along with this? Was he just rebelling?

That said - employers can be scum. We all know that and I guarantee that the 'director' knew he was breaching legislation and whether or not the young person/parents knew this is irrelevant. He should have had the nerve/backbone/common sense to follow the legislation.

If ACAS say there is a case, then I'm inclined to agree with them - they know what they are talking about.

I do have a legal background and first hand experience of employment law. It's complicated and weighted heavily in the favour of the employer.

I'd be really interested in finding out more about the actual circumstances of this case but, alas, it's not going to happen. Shame - as if it does go to tribunal, it will be riveting.

I could ramble on for pages on these issues, but I won't. What I will say is 'good luck,'

There are enough dreadful, corner cutting employers out there as it is and they rely on people taking the 'no smoke without a fire' viewpoint. For someone to stand up to them, essentially call their bluff and make them accountable is great in my view.

Kids will always try to get as much as they can from a situation - if it's work and they are so inclined - they will work damned hard. They will make mistakes but to then fire someone for a 'minor' breach - even if repeated - well, they need to think about this hard if they know they have 'exploited' the child.

Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law.

Just a few incoherent, random thoughts. Would love to know more and really ponder this, though.

Peace,

Cado
edit on 5-9-2014 by cado angelus because: I appear to be illiterate. I blame Semillon Chardonnay.




posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:05 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I hope your not implying my reasons were anything like that.

For me its easy. He knowingly broke rules he knew he could be fired for, even after being caught multiple times. That is just plain old fashioned bad behavior. The firing was deserved and justified.

The company also made a mistake and if they pay for that, its deserved.

Doing it for revenge because he got caught is not a good life lesson though. It teaches him its OK if he breaks rules over and over again, but not OK if the business breaks the rules. They should both be punished and neither rewarded IMO

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:05 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
Haha, OK I guess nobody understands that a child can chuckle at employment law, and with the shared concern of a parent who has a close relationship with his child know that he is not being exploited, yet use exploitation laws to punish employers who have broken the law and fired someone for lesser offences.
Wow, the 'hidden jewellery crime' is more important than the child labour crime on ATS, that is tragic.


You've been told more than once that we on ATS do not believe in child labor.

Quit trying to hide behind that. Because that is exactly what you are doing: trying to remove the role you had in this, which was to allow your child to exceed that amount of hours allowed, because it was "okay" while he was drawing a paycheck and "up to the employer".

Way to go showing your child how to NOT be responsible as a parent...just because the law is written a certain way.

Rules are rules. You have not proven to us that this director had it in for your son. You instead are asking us to 'take your word for it'.

But the fact is: he got fired for breaking a rule 3 times.

So NOW you apparently are teaching your son that: It's okay to not follow rules at your place of employment if you think they are "stupid" or you don't agree with them.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:06 PM
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a reply to: Hijinx
I follow law and the interpretation of the law alone, I was employed by the state for many years to interpret statutory law. It is why I support my son in this case.
It is a pity so many folk have no problem with employers breaking UK laws about the hours people under 18 can work.
It is also a pity that so many find a 'first stop' .gov website and claim much before they have read the actual legislation or interpretation of the law.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:08 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
And your silly suggestion that my 'complicity' in my son working over hours is something I should be scared of litigation is ridiculous.

Yea....sure.

You are aware, that your son, being under 18, will have his court case automatically sent to Child Services (DoE), once it is formally documented in court?

You are currently in breech of two, separate neglect laws.

Physical Neglect: Which covers parental responsibility in ensuring adequate supervision. That applies to his employer just as much as any babysitter.

Emotional Neglect: Which covers parental responsibility in encouraging a child to engage illegal behavior. Which you have openly admitted too.

Why do I get the feeling that we will be seeing a thread about DoE interfering in your life soon...

Edit to add:
Even though I will post no names, I thought it prudent to ask the people involved their permission first.

UK DoE currently has an investigator in Alberta, Canada. They are investigating for child neglect, as the parent (a British citizen , here on work visa from his parent company in UK) allowed his 17 year old son to work on an industrial site.

The son posted pictures on FB while keeping in contact with his friends.

It is perfectly legal for his son to be on that work site per Alberta Law. His son has all certifications required for the tasks he has been tasked with.

It is not legal in the UK. Nobody made any legal claims. DoE found out, and took it upon themselves to send an investigator half way around the world.

Tread carefully.
edit on 5-9-2014 by peck420 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:08 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Blaine91555
...guess you love authority, unless it involves stopping employers making over hours rota's for child workers?



At what point did you stop the Employer from taking advantage of your son?

Oh that's right...you didn't.

I am all for stopping Employers from taking advantage of Minors. So much so in fact, that I would not have enabled the Employer to do it in the first place. Which is what you did...

So you love authority?

Wow.
edit on 9/5/2014 by ArcticLights because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:17 PM
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a reply to: peck420


This is what my family does grainofsand. I only bring this up, as you bring up the fact you feel your employment gives you a better understanding of this situation than my own. I have merely given you my take on the situation.

Any and all cases involving suspicion of child abuse, or the infringement of laws intended to protect the mental and physical well being of an individual under the age of 18 are investigated regardless of whether they think there is an actual case or not. They do not take the innocence until proven other wise approach they take any and all complaints as serious until proven otherwise. They will investigate your sons employment, with or with out your involvement and will only move forward with any charges, fines etc if there is a legitimate case to be found.

The DOE may in fact, place charges on you for filing a false infraction if they find evidence to support the fact you are reporting this incident with malicious intent.

My advice comes from three generations of social workers, stemming mainly in the rights and well being of children, and women.

Once again, good day to you.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:18 PM
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a reply to: Blaine91555

Interesting reply, breaking rules is


a bad work ethic to develop at an early age that will continue through adulthood and limit a persons opportunities.


Lol's and breaking child labor laws is also a poor work ethic that could end in the directors firing, no or bad references and the company receiving fines.

I would state that the director set an example of his regards for law and rules when he broke the law, a youth could easily see this as the director had little regard for law or rules and based his actions on that. The employer hired a director that had bad work ethics and little or no regard for the law and will suffer the consequences of that mistake.

There can be no doubt mistakes were made by both parties, now it is time to let the future decide what the cost of this mis-discretion will be for all of them.

Yup rainy day boredom



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:19 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand




We contacted a government agency, provided them with the evidence of timesheets/bank statements/rota's/etc and they have run with it because the employer broke child employment law.


So he had a bank account with which he either cashed a cheque or had direct deposit. In order to get paid this way he would have had to provide proof of working age to the employer because the employer was deducting taxes etc. So why wouldn't the Govt. see an underage child depositing cheques from which taxes were taken? He must have a SIN number I assume?

I only state this because it seems that a false statement might have been made by your son as to his legal age and ability to work at all? Just a guess of course. Or did the employer falsify a document? Or you?

When you started the OP I believe many thought this was a kid working for cash. At least I did.

So now my question is if the Director even knew he had hired someone illegally because Paperwork is a different story.

Peace


edit on 5-9-2014 by jude11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:20 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: SubTruth
Maybe the boss was in the right.


No, the boss is not right.

He broke child labor laws.


That's the bottom line here. In the eyes of the law (and every other corporate entity on the face of the earth) the kid is just a dumb kid and the company is the "grown up" here. Screw 'em. They pay an HR staff to prevent this sort of thing, and they blew it. Let them pay their way out of it this time and they won't blow it the next time. Laws and fines exist to prevent this sort of idiocy from becoming rampant and commonplace. The 16 yr old's behavior isn't at all germane to the issue here, and it shouldn't be. That said, I'm not surprised at the bizarre slant that some guys are taking on this very cut and dried issue of labor laws having been violated. Most posters on this site have no idea what their own lives would be like if there was no government oversight to prevent the corporate elite from having its way with them and everyone they care about. They believe the "government oppression" meme as if it were divinely inspired scripture.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:22 PM
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originally posted by: AlaskanDad
a reply to: Blaine91555

Interesting reply, breaking rules is


a bad work ethic to develop at an early age that will continue through adulthood and limit a persons opportunities.


Lol's and breaking child labor laws is also a poor work ethic that could end in the directors firing, no or bad references and the company receiving fines.

I would state that the director set an example of his regards for law and rules when he broke the law, a youth could easily see this as the director had little regard for law or rules and based his actions on that. The employer hired a director that had bad work ethics and little or no regard for the law and will suffer the consequences of that mistake.

There can be no doubt mistakes were made by both parties, now it is time to let the future decide what the cost of this mis-discretion will be for all of them.

Yup rainy day boredom






Two wrongs don't make a right. Simple concept. They are all wrong. The employer, the director, the kid and the OP. The whole lot.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:22 PM
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a reply to: NorEaster

Sir, I salute you.

No second line required in my view.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:23 PM
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originally posted by: Hijinx


I think you have the wrong person...

edit on 5-9-2014 by peck420 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: redhorse


Two wrongs don't make a right. Simple concept. They are all wrong. The employer, the director, the kid and the OP. The whole lot.


You are correct; but that does not make revenge less sweet for OP & son.

I feel sorry for the employer who hired the brainless and incompetent director, but I guess thats just part of the cost of doing business.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 06:43 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

I have. But now I am in a position to be the person that, when they see it, fires managers for showing favoritism.

Not sure about UK law, but in the US a manager is legally liable for the decisions they make. If they are favoring one over another, then there is legal recourse. It then becomes the job of the plaintiff to show compelling evidence that the managers behavior created a hostile work environment. If it is found that the manager did, then the manager is legally liable for recompense.

At that point, you then determine if the hostile work environment was reported to superiors/HR. If so, and nothing was done, the company itself is liable.

Let me tell you how I have managed to keep managers from showing favoritism: i always outperform everyone else. Long hours and covering shifts....thats all fine and dandy. But if you are a rock star....no one ever takes issue with their rock star employees.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 07:22 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand

Nope, in the UK the employer is solely legally responsible for complying with child employment laws.


They are in the US too.

Minors are minors by law. If a minor breaks an employment law ---- it does not matter. The law states they are a minor and do not have legal right to make the decision to work longer hours. Even if they do work longer hours. The law takes precedence.

The employer is responsible. PERIOD!

If it was an illegal alien, "they'd" be jumping all over the employer.

Instead they want to portray your kid as a spoiled brat and hold you responsible.
edit on 5-9-2014 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 07:30 PM
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Good for you in doing your homework and exposing their willful breaking of child labor laws. My only concern is what 30yo has such a hard on for a 16yo? That's just odd to me.

Be careful and good luck.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 07:41 PM
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This may be a little of-topic, but the mention in the title of a lost reference and your son now having a 'gap' in his C.V. - were there any other senior colleagues or managers who your son got on with well? Because if a reference is required by future employers he may find it useful to have one of them be a reference.

I only suggest because a similar thing happened to me in the past where i thought I'd have to erase a job from my C.V. only to have suggested that colleagues and other leaders are perfectly fine for a reference and in fact can be more insightful than a manager who see's you maybe once or twice a week.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 07:47 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: grainofsand

Nope, in the UK the employer is solely legally responsible for complying with child employment laws.


They are in the US too.

Minors are minors by law. If a minor breaks an employment law ---- it does not matter. The law states they are a minor and do not have legal right to make the decision to work longer hours. Even if they do work longer hours. The law takes precedence.

The employer is responsible. PERIOD!

If it was an illegal alien, "they'd" be jumping all over the employer.

Instead they want to portray your kid as a spoiled brat and hold you responsible.


I don't think anyone is taking issue with the legality of the employers actions in regard to working the extra hours. The problem people have is that the OP fully admits:

I was happy with my son working the hours...


The people like the OP who keep pointing at some "BS rule" and blaming the business may be correct in the letter of the law, but cannot seem to grasp any sense of honor or moral decency which precedes law by eons. The only correct move here is to walk away.

You simply don't get to have any moral high ground when you fully support your son's activities and then cry foul at how he was "exploited" when you openly SUPPORTED the exploitation. The fact that the OP can't see this makes me incredibly sad that there are people who literally can't tell right from wrong at a fundamental level.



posted on Sep, 5 2014 @ 07:47 PM
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originally posted by: jude11
a reply to: grainofsand



I only state this because it seems that a false statement might have been made by your son as to his legal age and ability to work at all? Just a guess of course. Or did the employer falsify a document? Or you?

When you started the OP I believe many thought this was a kid working for cash. At least I did.

So now my question is if the Director even knew he had hired someone illegally because Paperwork is a different story.

Peace



Or the whole story is absolute B.S.

Listen, I know I'm going to get hammered for this but most of the OP's post history is made up of Oh Yeah, That Really Happened Stories, or some obscure piece of internet journalism that he uses to posit some That Happened Story. Almost all of which center obsessively around his alleged 16 year old brilliant, athletic, perfect-in-every-way, son who only got that we because the OP is a wonderful, responsible, always-has-his-boy's-back, emotionally-well-rounded father.

All of the capers of this father son duo that we are treated to are carefully interwoven and then defended with a cognitive dissonance that is breath-taking in its totality and a hypocrisy so baffling and yet consistent that it can only be achieved by the profoundly self-unaware or a very, very gifted (if twisted) story-teller.
Personally, I'm betting on the former. I think that he is the son or possibly, he does have a sixteen year old son somewhere and he isn't allowed anywhere near that kid. The wish-fulfillment aspect is so consistent in these posts you could almost dance to it no matter what. Not to mention that most of these posts are hung on some moral dilemma or divisive topic that the OP inevitably takes some self-righteous and/or morally gray stance on. It is just really... weird and suspicious.

I try to take posters at face value, but this guy so obsessively churns out I'm A Great Dad self-aggrandizement agenda driven posts that if he does have a son I would be very worried about that son's emotional well-being. I hope he doesn't.

So, this is an attack I suppose and I apologize jude for using your post for a de-rail and a personal attack on the OP. I expect to get reprimanded by the moderators accordingly but good lord... Somebody needed to say it. Grainofsand is either completely full of it or desperately in need of therapy or some unknown combination of the two. I will say, it is usually interesting though.




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