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‘Forced’ to fight: Disillusioned British ISIS Fighters Afraid to Come Home

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posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 04:48 AM
a reply to: seentoomuch

Because banning stuff works?

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 05:12 AM
a reply to: skalla

Wheres the justice for all the men .. women and children they brutally raped and murdered because they didnt follow their primitive.. barbaric .. bloodthirsty superstition .. those people had lives .. families and rights as well ..

There are some in this world with whom there is NO reasoning as they are incapable of reason .. compromise and proper civilized behavior .. IS is one of the groups with which there is no reasoning they have shown themselves to be a very clear and present threat to civilised society .. leaving execution of every last IS member and sympathizer the only option to preserve society. There is no other way to stop such things from continuing their murderous rampage.

But go ahead continue living in your ivory towers and be lenient the day will come when you learn the full horrific price of leniency .. Guaranteed IS will NOT show any of you mercy or compassion if positions were reversed.
edit on 7/9/14 by Expat888 because: typo.. grr..

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 05:17 AM
a reply to: Expat888

My suggestion is quite clearly that not **everyone** who had had an involvement with IS has murdered someone.

Being bloodthirsty in return shows that there is no reasoning with us either, and beheading someone for not being a fanatical Muslim is no different from shooting someone for being in the same organisation as one.

But they are the barbarians, right?

I don't align my moral compass by the evil actions of others and allow it to excuse murderous intention in my own mind.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 05:44 AM
a reply to: elysiumfire

You will never get an argument from me that religious fundamentalism is a good idea!
I work with young people who have experienced trauma - sexual abuse, neglect, kids who've seen their father sliced up in the living room because he didn't pay the poxy £200 debt to his idiot dealer, and the rest. Some of those kids have joined gangs for all the standard sociological models that you would expect, and time after time after time they slowly come to realise that they haven't found what they thought they were looking for. You can see it all coming, but they just won't - they're young, eager to fit in - whatever.

This young woman is a Scottish citizen and so is entitled to to a trial by our laws. We don't know what she's done, if she's all talk or if she has actually harmed anyone. We are not barbaric and we would do well to remind ourselves of that, no matter how angry the actions of ISIS make us. Of course they make us angry, that's kind of the point.

For those who were not born here, and are not our 'clan' then no, they shouldn't be allowed to return. If they cannot abide by the laws of Scotland, then they clearly don't want to join us and fit in and they should not be welcomed back. But for our own, we need to take responsibilty and have that conversation with them when they ask to come home.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 06:29 AM
I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I have to after seeing multiple users talking about how people make mistakes. Yes, people make mistakes, and it usually is correct to give someone a second chance when they make bad decisions. When your bad decision involves murdering innocent people however, any second chance you receive will come only after a very, very lengthy prison sentence...IF you get out at all. You have to understand that the mistakes most people make do not involve brutally massacring other people. ANYONE who would do that to their fellow human beings IS definitely a danger to society, as they have no value for human life. Rather they only value the lives of those who share their beliefs. I literally hate the beliefs of the WBC, but I am not going to wish them dead or attempt to murder them. If I did, then I would deserve to be punished for my actions.

So as soon as you pass a certain point your actions cannot simply be ignored or forgiven, meaning you cannot escape punishment. Small or petty crimes are completely different. But with these lunatics the INTENT to kill was there, and they did it without mercy and without any regard whatsoever for those people who were BEGGING for their lives. Anyone who has such little compassion for their fellow man does not deserve to live in a civilized society with his/her fellow men. Anyone other British citizen who perpetrated acts such as these would not get a free pass, so why in the world would Britain purposefully allow people like this to come back into their country? Nobody wants KNOWN murderers walking their streets, especially when we are talking murdering without impunity, without any regard for life whatsoever. I saw a video the other day that was almost 20 minutes long, in which ISIS beheaded one person after another. But they just made a mistake. Sure, let's let them come to Britain or America, and just trust that they were only capable of committing these atrocities while in Iraq or Syria, and let's trust that they will be model citizens. Because who hasn't beheaded and murdered innocent people? Honest mistake I'm sure.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 08:29 AM
I am baffled that someone on page one felt BAD for her, because she was ONLY 20.

I'm sorry, but 20 is WAY, WAY past the age of innocent, confused child. That's not saying some 20 year olds aren't still confused, misled children at heart.....but rather by the time you are 20, you can't play that card anymore. You are an adult who like other adults has thoughts, and performs actions, both of which have REAL WORLD RAMIFICATIONS.

I'm willing to bet a large portion of these ISIS idiots don't fully realize what they are doing. Hell, a large portion of humans in general don't realize what they are doing in life, or from one moment to the next. That isn't an excuse.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 09:25 AM
a reply to: JiggyPotamus

Anyone who has such little compassion for their fellow man does not deserve to live in a civilized society with his/her fellow men.

Speaking of compassion - so many of our soldiers, and soldiers throughout history, have fought for causes they believed in. Sometimes the story they're told, and the situation they're presented with is not what they signed on for

So, again - speaking of compassion - we don't know which people committed which crimes. Do we? Or who was forced to do what?

How much do you think you know about the recruitment of these people? Do you honestly believe that they agreed to go over there to commit atrocities? To believe this, we'd have to also believe that they are inherently evil - and different from decent people. There are always a few disturbed people in the mix. We have them in our own military

How do you feel about conscientious objectors?

There is so much more to this story than most people are getting from the short news blips they see in the mainstream media. Many of these people went over to fight for something that most Americans would respect and support - if a similar situation was happening in the USA

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 09:29 AM

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

If they return - how would you know that they aren't returning because they found they had rushed to join something they couldn't in good conscience support?

The same way that I would know they are not returning to eat my children's hearts, behead my granddaughter, and sell my sisters on a slave-block - I WOULDN'T know, either way. Neither is it a chance I'm willing to take, gambling with the lives of my own people.

How do you know they won't return wiser and more profoundly respectful of their home? Not all of them are going to be criminals - not even by association. If we say they are, then we also must say all our servicemen are also criminals - by association

No, not by association - by choice, It hasn't been any secret how they've been operating since their inception. Anyone going to fight with them had to have made a conscious choice to engage in cold-blooded murder. We're not talking battlefield death in the heat of war, we're talking cold blooded, intentional, pre-meditated, methodical execution of bound innocents and captives when there is NO war going on at the moment in the execution environs.

Life isn't neat and tidy - black and white. I mentioned earlier - loyalty is a complicated thing. How many crimes have been committed in the name of allegiance? How many wars were just wars?

This is only one war, of a sort that we only see once per century or so, if that frequently. The character of other wars, as an aggregate, have no bearing upon it. Is it your contention here that other people committing "crimes in the name of allegiance" makes it OK for these jihadists to do the same? In most countries, simply switching allegiances as they have done is a crime in itself, even BEFORE they compound that by committing atrocities. Now they want to come home and switch their allegiances back again? If you would allow that, you should always keep in the back of your mind just how easily they swap allegiance...

It takes a certain kind of person to say enough - to see things for what they are - and go home. But now they can't - can they?

Not if I have any say in the matter. There are few things I feel this strongly about, but this is one of them. Maybe the only one nowadays. I will NOT gamble the lives of my loved ones on the promises of people who abandoned us to begin with to go fight on behalf our enemies and would-be enslavers. They made their choice of who they wanted for a friend, and what they wanted to do, and where they wanted to be - so now they need to stick with that choice, and BE there.

Our soldiers are welcomed home - no matter what they've done. And with good reason

No they are not.

Absolutely they are not. I suppose that maybe one would have to have been on the receiving end of the opprobrium to understand that statement. There are no more ticker tape parades. One is more frequently met, even now, with hostile reactions.

And "no matter what they've done" - seriously? Did you seriously say that in print here?

Have you ever heard of "Ft. Leavenworth"? "Courts-martial" ring any bells? No, our soldiers can NOT get away with what these jihadists want to get away with, much less get back into our general population if they try it.

If our soldiers go off the rails publicly like these jihadists have, then the UCMJ takes over and handles them. What code of justice will handle the invading... erm, I mean "returning"... islamists?

Since when is the excuse "I didn't know" a get out of jail free card? And yes, it IS an excuse. There is just no way they could not have known what they were signing on for if they had enough smarts too be able to buy a plane ticket on their own.

edit on 2014/9/7 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 09:35 AM
a reply to: Astyanax

Tarnishing? Who is it that tarnished with their videos of beheading people. Crucifying people for having different beliefs?

THIS is what those westerners went to join ISIS and fight in Syria for... this was the beginning and why they signed up:

Partial Translation:

These demonstrations should be our aid to make our coup and replace the government. We have to ignite rage, incite and exploit that bloodshed and make it our way to come back home and spread our Islamic principles to rule over the political scene in Syria.

It is time to come back home and rule the Syrian Muslim people who live under the umbrella of the secular regime that supports and protects the principles of tolerance, and guarantees the freedom of thinking and embracing whatever belief the people choose. Such a freedom was the main reason that made the other non-Muslim sects of the Syrian people able to step forward and have a rank and a good contribution in the Syrian life, and also share the wealth with the Muslims on their own land.

It is time for us to come back and force all the other non-Muslim sects to shrink and step back. These sects are the infidel Christians, the criminal Alawites and the infidel Druzes.

It is time for us to come back and rule Syria under the name of Allah – the lord of all lords – and his holy Quran, and to impose the Islamic principles on all who oppose us without discrimination.

It is time for our principles to spread among the Syrian Muslims, to bring back the well and the glory of Allah after they have been lost because of these infidel regimes.

So we support the revolution in Syria with all what we have (money, speech, writings and media conferences), because it is the last hope for our principles to gain success, and the only way to overthrow the Baath-Regime, even if that has to cost thousands of lives of innocent people. We have to push the young Muslims to go down the streets in order to ignite this revolution, even if that would lead to their death, because that death means the freedom to those who will come after, and a victory for us. We also assure the right of those people to protest and defense themselves, even if that would cause the death of many policemen and army officers who are basically infidels, they caused a lot of corruption and destruction in our land, so death will be their fair punishment for what they committed.

It is also too important to remind the Syrian Muslims of the intentions of the other sects and their plans against Islam, and against our freedom, so we do not recommend any sort of collaboration even under the most difficult circumstances, because they – in their instincts – have bad feelings and bad intentions for Islam and for his people. We have to make sure that the revolution will be pure Islamic, and with that no other sect would have a share of the credit after its success.

We pray to Allah to support our people in Syria and lead them to victory.

This was the beginning, and why they went to Syria - and then followed ISIS into Iraq... to take away any and all freedoms of people who lived there. These people who were not born in Syria, who are not from Iraq, who went to desecrate the land with the blood of innocent men women and children, in order to take away their freedom.

We are seeing, up close, the reason it was under penalty of death in Syria to belong to these extremist groups. Just look at what they are doing and you will understand why - why you wouldn't want this in your own land.

It is not I who tarnish a thing, it is they - through their every action.

Now, ask yourself... what westerner would want them back... what is it that stops them from making the same attempt in western lands, since that is where they are from, where they were born and raised? They have more care about these ideals in western lands than they do in lands where they are foreigners - that's only logical.

No one wants these terrorists. No one. Not middle easterners for damn sure... and not westerners. They are the enemies of all of us. They are attempting to destroyer Islam. They are cold blooded murderers of innocent men, women, and children. What they have done is inexcusable.

Put them in front of the Hague for war crimes if you must... should they live through the atrocities they are committing in the Middle East.
edit on 7-9-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 09:42 AM
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

And there is is.

Right there, in your very next post, is the "welcome" for our soldiers that you had just spoken of.

Thanks, but no thanks.

It's ok - I've heard worse, up close and in person. No one asked to be thanked - but they didn't expect to get spit at, either.

What really bothers me, more than the mindset which made that post, is that that SAME mind can "welcome" returning soldiers with such accolades at those can turn around and plead for welcome for people who would kill us all if given the opportunity, soldiers or not.

You welcome the returning islamists if you must - I'm keeping entirely other options open for them.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 09:51 AM
a reply to: nenothtu

It's insane to me, that a Muslim must sit and explain to anyone the difference between a religious fanatic who murders people, and a countries military.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 09:59 AM

originally posted by: LarryLove
The salient point behind this is 'understanding' and finding common ground to constructively engage with disenchanted UK youths – given that 400 or so young Brits are waging Jihad at the moment. The eye-for-an-eye biblical rhetoric won't solve anything. We really do need to talk as a nation and begin to understand.

Your name says it all, Mr. Love.

You may engage them in any manner you see fit when they come to your neighborhood - I already know how they will be engaged in mine. I can tell you that I won't even be attempting to find any common ground with them. Just the thought of trying, actually LOOKING FOR common ground with people who can cut the heads off of 6 year old girls and even babies, people who will strip a woman naked, bind her, and then cut her jugular and bleed her out into a bowl like some demented, off the rails Masai who has gone feral... just the thought of trying to find common ground with those sorts of people and their supporters leaves me with a feeling of ick that can never be scrubbed off.

I DO NOT WANT to EVER be able to "understand" people who can do those things.

I have other ways of handling them, and the only "understanding" I need of them is the trails they use and where they go to get water.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 10:02 AM

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: nenothtu

It's insane to me, that a Muslim must sit and explain to anyone the difference between a religious fanatic who murders people, and a countries military.

What is not quite right to me is the amount of "why don't Muslims ever oppose these people" I hear, and then you have to scream in order for your opposition to them to be noticed, and on top of that, that opposition is then itself opposed...

Some times, I just can't figure this world out.

edit on 2014/9/7 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 10:06 AM

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: nenothtu

It's insane to me, that a Muslim must sit and explain to anyone the difference between a religious fanatic who murders people, and a countries military.

Yeah but many of these guys went out to fight against Assad and help their fellow Muslims... it was not as it is now.
Upon getting there and fighting for a bit, perhaps some wanted to come home but when faced with a unit of ISIS and hearing stories of how they are killing defectors and so on, I'm sure many were forced to stay and are caught up in some serious s*** that they never intended.

I'm sure even more knew what they were getting into and many out there went out knowing full well what they were doing and relished getting into a Jihad and messing some **** up.

But not all... and what of those caught in the middle? What about the guys who went out to help out the Syrians or their family and are now screwed?
I know everyone says "they made their bed" etc etc... but it sucks that these guys now have nowhere to go and will end up doing some seriously awful things and probably end up dead... all because they were doing what was morally right in their minds, helping their fellow Muslims.

I saw something recently which made a comparison between many young Brits going out to fight Franco in Spain during civil war and the guys who went out to fight Assad.

This isn't the exact piece but it deals with the topic

edit on 7/9/14 by blupblup because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 10:08 AM
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

From OpinionatedB's source ...

originally posted by: OpinionatedB

We have to push the young Muslims to go down the streets in order to ignite this revolution, even if that would lead to their death, because that death means the freedom to those who will come after, and a victory for us..

This makes me angry. A bunch of old extremists sitting back and sending the young extremists to go do their dirty work for them. If it was such a good and nobel cause to die for then why don't the old extremists go out and die for it themselves? I wish the younger crowd could break through the extremist indoctrination and ask themselves that question.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 10:09 AM
a reply to: OpinionatedB

I was just going to post that, I don't understand the apologist on this issue, I don't understand their mind set, I understand forgiveness and tolerance, but I have to wonder if they would be so compassionate if these were Christians.
edit on 103030p://bSunday2014 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 10:15 AM

originally posted by: beansidhe

The truth of the matter is that they are human and have made a choice. We need to be talking about this because wtf's going on? How come a lassie from Glasgow is now spouting rubbish on Twitter, having gone to fight in Syria? We are not going to solve this by hiding from it, or turning our backs.
I think it was Logarock who pointed out that we need to be finding out who on earth is encouraging these kids to go over? What are they saying? How are they 'hooking' them?

The process of radicalization has been studied to death in every context from minor street gangs to islamist militants. If you truly care about these people, then it's time to avail yourself of those studies and get to them BEFORE the radicalizers do. If you wait until afterwards, you're in a whole new, and very dangerous, ball game.

I've heard through the grapevine that an ATS member is contemplating starting a thread on the process of radicalization, how it's done, what it entails, and how to meet the challenge of it. it may be worth the read for you when it gets posted.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 10:20 AM

originally posted by: beansidhe

Surely we have to begin a conversation with people like this

No talking.
Kill 'em all.

posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 10:22 AM

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posted on Sep, 7 2014 @ 10:24 AM

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