The Seven Churches and The New Messiah

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You don't appear to know the Bible very well.

Jesus told all of his disciples that he would die and raise up on the third day to prove that he was the Christ/Savior that was spoken about in the Old Testament. Jesus even quoted from Psalm 22:1 to let them know that he was fulfilling scripture. Jesus told everyone that he came to fulfill the scriptures about him in Luke 24:44.

Why do you think John called Jesus "the Lamb of God" that takes away the sin of the world in John 1:29 & 36?

All of Jesus' disciples knew why Christ died, but apparently, you don't.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

First off, if you want to call Jesus by His real name, its Yehoshua.

Revelation was written in 94 AD, long after Paul's letters.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

His name was ישוע Jod Shin Vav Ayin - Jesua.

Revelation is clearly written before the Great Jewish War which ended in 70 AD. The oldest fragments that has survived are mostly of later origin, and they show clear signs of being crude translations into Greek from an Aramaic source. I believe a copy of the original Apocalypse codex, or maybe the perfect original is the scroll sealed with seven seals that the Lamb of God (also, not Jesus and not the Messiah) is found worthy to open, to reveal the the True and unedited Word of God.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So, now you're going to try and convince everyone that the "Lamb of God" is not Jesus in the book of Revelation (which John wrote) even though John clearly says he is in the book of John?! Good luck with that.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You don't appear to know the Bible very well.

Sure you don't mean I don't appear to know the Bible the way you have been taught to understand it?

Jesus told all of his disciples that he would die and raise up on the third day to prove that he was the Christ/Savior that was spoken about in the Old Testament.

Show me one place where Jesus says that he will literally be executed by crucifixion and rise from the dead after three days. Also show me where Jesus says he is the Saviour and the Christ. Show me proof that God demands human sacrifice.

Jesus even quoted from Psalm 22:1 to let them know that he was fulfilling scripture. Jesus told everyone that he came to fulfill the scriptures about him in Luke 24:44.

Why do you think John called Jesus "the Lamb of God" that takes away the sin of the world in John 1:29 & 36?

Because Jesus was a Mamzer of epic proportions (look it up). Besides, these are not the words of Jesus, but the words of John the Baptist and his disciples. They will not stand. They may have been right back then, but now that 6000 years have passed since Adam was born, and we are entering the 1000 year Peace Millennium, Jesus (or Jesua) will stand in the place of God, who rests on the Sabbath. Jesus in effect of being High Priest (see Book of Hebrews), Jesus will rule in God's place, and his Son and Messiah, the Millennium King, will carry out his work on Earth.

All of Jesus' disciples knew why Christ died, but apparently, you don't.

Jesus was arrested by the Romans for grand theft donkey and for breaking and entering into a house where he and his disciples were having a party, that has come to be known as the Last Supper . Also he was arrested for stirring up the peace in Jerusalem by riding his stolen donkey into town to the Jews amusement shouting "Hosiannah! David's son!", which is basically a threat to Roman superiority. He was also handed over to the Sanhedrin who charged him with blasphemy, which would be punnished with 40 minus 1 lashes.

I guess I am wrong since you know something I don't? Humour me!

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So, now you're going to try and convince everyone that the "Lamb of God" is not Jesus in the book of Revelation (which John wrote) even though John clearly says he is in the book of John?! Good luck with that.

The Lamb of God we meet in Revelation is not Jesus. Jesus is the guy who sits at the throne and who talks to John the Scribe throughout Revelation via his Angel. The show must go on.

Besides, we don't know who wrote the Gospel of John, but it is dedicated to John, the disciple of Jesus since he is the only disciple who is not mentioned by name in the Gospel of John. Also, this disciple is not the same as John the Baptist, and not even the same as who wrote the epistles of John. Finally John the Scribe is yet another character. So basically we have four different Johns, but you knew that didn't you?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Show me one place where Jesus says that he will literally be executed by crucifixion and rise from the dead after three days.

Matthew 12:40

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 17:22-23

22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Mark 8:31

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

John 2:19-22

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

we are entering the 1000 year Peace Millennium, Jesus (or Jesua) will stand in the place of God, who rests on the Sabbath. Jesus in effect of being High Priest (see Book of Hebrews), Jesus will rule in God's place, and his Son and Messiah, the Millennium King, will carry out his work on Earth.

Book of Hebrews? You do realize that was written by Paul, right? The one you admonish?

You don't even realize that every time the Bible references "Son" (with a capital "S") that it's referring to Jesus. Do a keyword search in the Bible. Jesus is the Millennial King. What is it that confuses you on this issue? What verse have you read that make you think that Jesus has a son?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The Lamb of God we meet in Revelation is not Jesus. Jesus is the guy who sits at the throne and who talks to John the Scribe throughout Revelation via his Angel. The show must go on.

According to the verse below, the Lamb was slain, so who do you think that was?

Revelation 5:12

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Now, let's go on to Revelation 5:13...

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Where else can we find a description of the above verse in the Bible?

Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The seven angels are seven Bishops of seven Church's in the first century, the whole book of Revelation is a dramatization of their great ministry work in the first century.

This is a fascinating thread. I'm not a Bible scholar - haven't even read it through - so I have no dog in this fight. But I will say it makes me think of Star Trekkies at a convention arguing about where Uhura was from, how old she was, and from which continent...or whether Scotty was from Edinburgh or Glasgow...or Harry Potter fans debating whether he ever wore braces or not.

Really.

Not to "mock", but - no one

and I mean
NO ONE

knows what all went on back then. In my opinion, Jesus or Yehushua or Jesu or whoever - is like King Arthur.
Probably - but not for sure - a real man, around whom legends have been built up and taught as truth.

I want to hand it to the OP, though. As interested as I am in the religious way of thinking, I just can't force myself to believe any of it. So I watch with rapt attention to see which of you "out-verses" the others.

Also - Grand Theft Donkey???? LOL!! Loved it.

Score for Utnapisjtim. (By the way, friend, what does your username signify, and may I ask what your ethnicity/culture/language of birth are?)



Oh, also: belated Star and Flag for the entertainment and educational value.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Show me one place where Jesus says that he will literally be executed by crucifixion and rise from the dead after three days.

Matthew 12:40

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

That hardly equates to Execution by crucifixion. Besides, did Jonah die? No he was alive in the belly of the whale.

Matthew 17:22-23

22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Mark 8:31

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Jesus speaks of the Son of Man, and talking about him in third person. Do you normally talk about yourself in third person? Are you sure he was talking about himself? Looks to me that he is talking about the Son of Man mentioned in Daniel.

John 2:19-22

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

Three days for Jesus is 3000 years for us, and the time it took us to rebuild the temple? 1944 years ==> www.abovetopsecret.com...

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. [ESV] Revelation 11:19

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

This is commentaries, they are not the words of Jesus.

As you should have realised by now, Jesus never even once said straight out that he was the Messiah, he even denied his disciples to say that he was the Messiah, and he once escaped when people tried to announce him the Messiah-- neither did he say directly that he would be killed, but 'the Son of Man', or some other euphemism for other future characters acting out the major plan of God and suffering by the hand of religion and the kings and emperors, and one of many references to Daniel and Enoch.

For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Revelation 16:26ff

Notice the last line there, "some of you will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" -- Jesus is promoting the Apocalypse of John the Scribe here. "Some of you will live to see/read about the Son of Man and his future Kingdom".

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

There exist seven nerve ganglia surrounding the seven encodrine glands in our body.
These endocrine glands are responsible for producing hormones.
Hormones are what allow us a number of experiences, including our emotional states..physiological metamorphic processes..early childhood development, puberty, menopause, etc...
These align with the exact locations of what are called chakras inn the Hindi faith, stll under other names in other traditions, including what Gnosticism sees the seven churches.
Look within, not without,

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

His name was ישוע Jod Shin Vav Ayin - Jesua.

Revelation is clearly written before the Great Jewish War which ended in 70 AD. The oldest fragments that has survived are mostly of later origin, and they show clear signs of being crude translations into Greek from an Aramaic source. I believe a copy of the original Apocalypse codex, or maybe the perfect original is the scroll sealed with seven seals that the Lamb of God (also, not Jesus and not the Messiah) is found worthy to open, to reveal the the True and unedited Word of God.

Im sorry, but that is completely in accurrate.

Yehoshuah: yod heh waw shin (gh)ayin

Revelation was written 4200 years after the fall of Adam, aka 94 AD. The metered syllable pattern in Psalm 90 forcasted Jesus' 2nd advent at year 4200, IF Jesus had died at the age of 40 rather than 33. Since He died 7 years early, the visions of Revelation was given to John to explain the detour in history.

My current research in Zephaniah reveals that Zeph was written in 3470 AF, and counts 728 syllables/years to 4200 AF, what would have been Jesus return. This is found in Samechs (hebrew chapter)1, 2,&3 of Zephaniah.

The Greek text of Revelation uses a similar metering to explicitley indicate that Revelation was written in 4200 AF, aka 94 AD.

The Aramaic NT is neither metered, nor is it reliable.

Edit:

You can view the parsed Psalm 90 meter in this downloadable doc

www.brainout.net...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Do some research on what Jesus said about Jonah and the connection. Then do some research on Jesus speaking to his followers in the third person and then get back to me, but it's obvious that you've never really researched anything in depth.

a reply to: Deetermined

You believe in Jonah living in a whale/big fish for three days?
Were those "God" days? Or human days?

it's obvious that you've never really researched anything in depth.

Seems to me he does lots of research and thinking about it, rather than just repeating what a pastor told him or a Sunday School teacher said.

But - that's just me.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

we are entering the 1000 year Peace Millennium, Jesus (or Jesua) will stand in the place of God, who rests on the Sabbath. Jesus in effect of being High Priest (see Book of Hebrews), Jesus will rule in God's place, and his Son and Messiah, the Millennium King, will carry out his work on Earth.

Book of Hebrews? You do realize that was written by Paul, right? The one you admonish?

Hebrews was most certainly NOT written by Paul. Firstly, all references to the OT or Tannakh are from the LXX Septuagint, while Paul always quote or paraphrase the Masoretic text. Secondly, the writing style of Hebrews is unique, and something of a literary masterpiece, and does not even faintly resemble the rough ramblings of Paul. The author of Hebrews says he learned everything from a disciple of Jesus, while Paul claims to have learned everything from Jesus himself, allthough Jesus had left the building quite a few years earlier.

You don't even realize that every time the Bible references "Son" (with a capital "S") that it's referring to Jesus. Do a keyword search in the Bible. Jesus is the Millennial King. What is it that confuses you on this issue? What verse have you read that make you think that Jesus has a son?

Bollocks! Can you please tell me WHEN capital letters were introduced into Greek? And also explain for me how many centuries AFTER the NT was written that capital letters were introduced to Greek? Enlighten me!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Yet you still can't point out anything that says that Jesus had a son. You're just trying to avoid the question.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The Lamb of God we meet in Revelation is not Jesus. Jesus is the guy who sits at the throne and who talks to John the Scribe throughout Revelation via his Angel. The show must go on.

According to the verse below, the Lamb was slain, so who do you think that was?.

Revelation 5:12

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Are you saying Jesus is the only one who has been killed, or slain as you put it? I know a few myself who have died violently and none of them were Jesus. What about all the thousands who were killed because of Jesus, from saint Stephen to the Christians in Iraq being killed as we speak? You are blinded by ONE tree and you fail to see the VAST forest around it. You are like Narcissus only, it is not your own face you see in the mirror, it's someone else. That's magic, man!

Now, let's go on to Revelation 5:13...

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Where else can we find a description of the above verse in the Bible?

Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

In Revelation 1 the Son of Man proclaims he is the Alfa and Omega. In Revelation 21 and 22, he who sits at the throne says he is the Alfa and the Omega. Are you saying Jesus is both sitting on the throne AND simultaneously lying in front of himself looking as though he had been slaughtered? And at the same time being his own son who has conquered and seated himself beside Jesus just as Jesus sat down on HIS Father's throne?

I understand this is awfully confusing for you, but: Make up your bloody mind!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

In Revelation 1 the Son of Man proclaims he is the Alfa and Omega. In Revelation 21 and 22, he who sits at the throne says he is the Alfa and the Omega. Are you saying Jesus is both sitting on the throne AND simultaneously lying in front of himself looking as though he had been slaughtered? And at the same time being his own son who has conquered and seated himself beside Jesus just as Jesus sat down on HIS Father's throne?

I understand this is awfully confusing for you, but: Make up your bloody mind!

That's exactly what the verse I quoted from Matthew 28:18 means.

Why do you put limitations on God? The One who was the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit? The Bible talks about this in great length, yet some will never understand.