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Daughters of Cain, Sons of Seth, Fallen Angels Oh My

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posted on Sep, 8 2014 @ 07:53 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Well you're just all over the place aren't you!?

This thread is about Cain not being Adam's son, but Satan's. It's about whether or not real live "fallen angels" had sex with real live girls, tainting "God's" human blood line, thus justifying God purging the planet through a flood. This same logic is being used by Christians to justify God telling Moses and his ilk to go and kill the inhabitants of neighboring towns and cities, because of angelic blood.

It's the same logic that allowed people to believe that Mary was a virgin who was impregnated by an "angel of the Lord" and the same logic that Paul used to urge women to cover their hair, "lest the angels".....

But we know better than that today. Adam and Eve are mythological, not historical characters. Fallen Angels weren't physically raping earth girls, who were giving birth to giant monsters, and so "God" decided to flood the joint. No. Just NO!

Jesus, if he existed, wasn't the child of an angelic being, or spirit being. Like everyone else, if he existed, had an earthly mother and father. He was no literal son of God any more than the pharisees were literal sons of Satan. I am no more or less a "child of the Most High" than Jesus was or you are.

So, in answer to your question, I am no more or less a god than Jesus was or is a god.

By the way, Psalms 82 wasn't written by David.





Yes, the Psalmist is correct, everyone is a spirit, but under whose authority?


I didn't say David wrote it, just that he said it, but then stated the Psalmist was correct.

OK so you don't believe it. But let me ask, are you this much against the Jews, even though it is their Torah? You know, Christians still include it, but let's hear it about the Jews, after all, it was their books first.

Now then also tell us about the Egyptians who slaughtered a lot of people also in the name of Osiris and Horace. Let's hear about Alexander the Great who slaughtered a lot of people in the name of Zeus. Let's hear the condemnations against the Assyrians who slaughtered a lot of people in the name of whatever god they wanted.

What I see is that you like to pick on Christians, denying the rest of history. But hey, let's not talk about the Hindus who have killed a lot of people because of the concept of untouchables. Let's only pick out one group to focus on.

While we are at it, let's talk about the genocide among Native Americans, in the name of the Great Spirit and Wankan Tanka or other spirits they worshiped. You can't cherry pick history. Either condemn them all or not even mention it.




posted on Sep, 8 2014 @ 08:23 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy




While we are at it, let's talk about the genocide among Native Americans, in the name of the Great Spirit and Wankan Tanka or other spirits they worshiped. You can't cherry pick history.


May I remind you of the title and topic of this thread? "Daughters of Cain, Sons of Seth, Fallen Angels Oh My"



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 11:07 AM
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I believe that I understand why Enoch was found in the dead sea scrolls along with Torah. Enoch is telling a detailed story of angels than the Genesis account is telling. Genesis relates that angels sinned in heaven and were cast down to this planet and bound in the confinements of hell. It is said that this archangel who was the chief of the rebellion led one third of the angelic creation to war with God. We are not told how many were involved but are given an idea of the great multitude involved. Nevertheless bear in mind that this was before the Adamic creation whereas the Noah account is a separate account some 1600 years later.

Matthew_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

The translators of this must have believed a legion was in the neighborhood of between 5,400 to 6,000 men and applied this to their translation from Greek to English. If they are correct then 12 legions would be between 64,000 to 72,000 angels. Nevertheless, this is only to show you that there must have been millions of angels in heaven and there must have been thousands or perhaps even millions that rebelled against God and were cast from the celestial realm.

My purpose in showing this is that the NT tells us that these angels who rebelled are not loose on the earth as so many are taught but are reserved into hell till they shall be destroyed.

2Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

Jude 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

By this i understand that the angels of Genesis are not the demons or evil spirits that Jesus fought but are indeed in hell.
Then who are the demons that Jesus fought and that afflict people today? Well that is where we use Enoch to understand this. That is one reason the ancient Hebrews embraced Enoch in their understanding and even the early Roman Christianity used Enoch in their understanding.

Genesis 6:1-4
(1) And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, (2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
(3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (4) There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Now the Hebrew bible does not really give very much detail about this invasion of these angels but Enoch does. Enoch not only gives us the number of these angels but also the names these rebels. Enoch lists that number as being 200 angels who left their places in the celestial realm and came down to earth on Mt. Hermon and proceeded to take wives from the Adamic race.

My point is this. The angels who were cast out of heaven were not the invasion of the 200 angels who took human wives. The angels who were cast to this earth are in hell and have been there since being cast from the celestial realm. Enoch reveals that the 200 angels who invaded earth are also in eternal punishments of various sorts. So all in all not one angel is loose upon this earth. All are confined till judgment and will be destroyed. That leaves the same question as before. Who then are the demons and Satan's that Jesus fought and that exist today?

One very important thing to consider is this. When the Greek to English translators translated our bibles they were not aware of Enoch and did not use Enoch as any sort of understanding. Enoch was a lost work to their understanding and not reliable literature. It became reliable in the dead sea scroll discovery of 1947 when it was then realized that it was found in the same library as the Torah.
---------------------------------- --------------------------------- ------------------------ -------------
From the book of Enoch --------
Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children (4) of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die (5) and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget (6) children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly (7) spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. (8) And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon (9) the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; (10) they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless (12) hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
------------------- ----------------------------- ------------------------- ---------------------
As you can now see, the demons of today are the spirits of the Giants. Not of angels but of a breed of corruption which is neither Adamic or Angelic. This breed is called Nephilim and is not the seed of angels or Adam. They were the giants of old who were destroyed in the flood of Noah. This directly disagrees with Alexander Sitchen and his outer space race.
This breed of creatures were not created by God nor even in death were found a place in God's plans. For this reason they are roaming the earth trying to find rest and through their evil hatred afflict men today.

But regardless of the differences of opinions Enoch has finally found its rightful place in literature.



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: Windword


It's the same logic that allowed people to believe that Mary was a virgin who was impregnated by an "angel of the Lord" and the same logic that Paul used to urge women to cover their hair, "lest the angels".....

I understand your disbelief because it is very difficult to understand with your mind indoctrinated by other beliefs.

Jesus' mother Mary was not impregnated by an angel. I see no bible that states that. Mary was reported to have conceived by the Holy Ghost (God Himself) and not by any other spirit.

The covering of hair is a very controversial subject but is a personal acceptance by various beliefs. The jest of it is actually based upon modesty and respect of being humble in the presence of God.

When we discuss theology we cannot state anything as fact even if it is accepted by most everyone. I did play your video and had noted that same theology from long ago. That also is theology and much harder for me to understand than what I understand today.



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 12:12 PM
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a reply to: Seede




I understand your disbelief because it is very difficult to understand with your mind indoctrinated by other beliefs.


Indoctrinated by what other beliefs? I was raised in a Pentecostal, Assembly of God environment. It was the application of logic and critical thinking, after observing unbearable hypocrisy and ignorance, that enabled me to wrench myself away from the clutches of organized religions and their superstitions.



Jesus' mother Mary was not impregnated by an angel. I see no bible that states that. Mary was reported to have conceived by the Holy Ghost (God Himself) and not by any other spirit.


First of all.there was already a superstitious precedent set, that angels can impregnate women. No one would have believed that GOD himself would have impregnated an earth girl. There is no prophesy of God himself incarnating as his own son, supposedly. Any such claim by Mary would have been met with a conviction of blasphemy immediately.

Secondly, the Biblical account is of Mary's version of her unplanned pregnancy was written by others decades, if not centuries, after the life and death of Mary and Jesus, if they even existed at all. It's an unbelievable and untrustworthy account that is medically impossible and religiously ridiculous.

Jewish followers of the Torah don't believe that it is a historical and factual account of human creation and history. It's allegorical at best. I understand that the video I linked is a bit heady, but it's harder to understand these concepts when one's logic is firmly planted in mythology as true history rather than helpful allegorical tales.






edit on 9-9-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 02:19 PM
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a reply to: windword


First of all.there was already a superstitious precedent set, that angels can impregnate women. No one would have believed that GOD himself would have impregnated an earth girl. There is no prophesy of God himself incarnating as his own son, supposedly. Any such claim by Mary would have been met with a conviction of blasphemy immediately.

Indoctrinated does not necessarily mean the first teachings of any sort of anything. It also references many teachings you have acquired in your life. You may once again be indoctrinated into another belief or teaching. All of us go through this process in our lives. That was not meant as a insult to you or to anyone. Apparently you were at one time indoctrinated into the Pentecostal denomination and you found it lacking in sincerity and truth. So by this you received another indoctrination into whatsoever you embrace today.

So now that I realize this I can talk with you instead of at you. You probably know more than most of us about the bible and would like to discuss it with you.

You are right. Very few people do believe that God would have impregnated His very own creation. It is fantastic and supernatural. Sheol/hell are also fantastic and supernatural. Your spirit of eternal life is fantastic and supernatural.
You must have been taught that Jesus existed with God as the Word (Logos) before He became Jesus? He did cite remembrance of preexistence with his father. I understand that naturally there was a substance change from celestial to terrestrial and from the celestial to the celestial realm.

In discussing this isn't it fair to stay with the actual theology of the story?

Most bibles say that ---
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

There is only one Holy Ghost (Spirit) and that is God the Creator. So how could a created angel even be mistaken as the Holy Spirit? There is no meaningful relation between the two understandings. In the first place a union between celestial and terrestrial was forbidden and in that understanding God would never use a created angel to procreate a terrestrial creation. Yes it did happen in the Genesis account but was never sanctioned by God. In fact it produced such a evil creation that God destroyed them in the flood.

Yes you are right in that very few people believe a virgin concept. In fact most Christianity today does not believe or discuss this. Now Windword, I do not belong to any denomination and in fact feel somewhat as you do. I am so old now that I have one foot in the grave but as a youngster I too belonged to Free Pentecostal associations (no mother affiliations) and then several Baptist organizations. I also saw mostly clicks of class distinction as well as distorted biblical teachings and in fact that is what soured me on denominations. But it did not sour me on the Creator God. Christianity today would never allow you or me to discuss this the way we are discussing it now. In fact everything today is happy, happy, happy and God is all love. I do know exactly what you mean.

If i insulted you in any way it was not intentional.



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: Seede




Indoctrinated does not necessarily mean the first teachings of any sort of anything. It also references many teachings you have acquired in your life.


Indoctrination is when someone tells you what to believe. My viewpoint isn't informed by indoctrination, but by careful self evaluation, critical introspection, self love and honesty.



You must have been taught that Jesus existed with God as the Word (Logos) before He became Jesus? He did cite remembrance of preexistence with his father.


Jesus, if he existed, was a mere human man. He wasn't God incarnate or God's breath any more than you or I. I don't subscribe to the trinity, however, the LOGOS as postulated by Plato and expounded by the Essene and Therapeutics, as well as the "name of God", is embodied in a 4 letter word, not 3 letters.



He did cite remembrance of preexistence with his father. I understand that naturally there was a substance change from celestial to terrestrial and from the celestial to the celestial realm.


Preexistence and reincarnation were both espoused by Jews and early Christians, Gnostics and Kabbalists. It's no surprise that Jesus' teachings would also promote preexistence and rebirth.



There is only one Holy Ghost (Spirit) and that is God the Creator. So how could a created angel even be mistaken as the Holy Spirit?


I don't believe in the trinity, I don't believe the biblical account of the birth, life or death and resurrection of Jesus. I do believe that superstitious and gullible people were ready to believe in the virgin birth because they already believed in angels, created by God, that were impregnating women.

The only God that I can relate to, or say that I "know" is the God of nature and natural law. The God of Natural Law doesn't go around breaking natural law by impregnating virgins or reanimating dead flesh.

And, just because physics and physical science hasn't been able to pinpoint the non-physical mind, thought, intention, soul, spirit and other unpredictable weirdness of conscious expression, doesn't mean it's not natural, or supernatural. We don't scientifically understand "spirit" yet. But, imo, we do understand instinctively.

What I find offensive, is men in fancy dresses, pretending to be the bride of Christ, telling men and women about how they should be addressing their gender roles, according to their personal superstitious take on ancient mythology.


edit on 9-9-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: AlephBet

Apart from it being the other way around. Cain was the firstborn Son of Man (Adam means Man), and in effect he belonged to God and was his son. And Abel didn't have the better sacrifice, he simply got all the attention from God, perhaps because his parties were wicked and partly because God invested tons of time in trying to convince him to quit his blood frenzies. For at that point, all life was sacred, and in effect, Abel was the first killer. A story goes that the real reason behind Cain killing his Brother was that Abel killed Cain's pet goat.



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 04:11 PM
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a reply to: Seede

There were the Watchers, a small group of angels which did come down to earth. They left their abode for an earthly one. They were chained and awaiting final judgement.

Then there is their offspring which they produced during the 1500 years or so they were here, they are the Nephilim. It does not say if they reproduced or even could. They were killed.

Then there are the tribes of nephilim encountered in the promised land way after Noah's time. If the Watchers were chained, and their offspring all killed off by the flood, where did they come from? Either they survived the flood, some Watchers evaded confinement, or a new batch of Watchers left their Angelic places. The first two options are impossible because that would make God less than omnipotent.

Also from your chronology, you state the Angelic wars were before Adamic times and all were dealt with. You left out their leader who got them to rebel, he was next seen working in the garden of Eden, if all were defeated and cast into chains of darkness, how is Satan in the Garden of Eden?

Also in Revelation there is the... "woe to you of earth and sea because the devil has come down to you in great wrath because he knows his time is short"

Doesn't sound like what you state, that the evil spirits on earth are only the spirits of the Nephilim.



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 05:03 PM
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a reply to: TinfoilTP

The watchers appear in the book of Daniel

Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.


The decree of the watchers and the holy ones that Nebuchadnezzar be turned into an animalistic form.

And Jeremiah

Jeremiah 4:16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah


These watchers are not bound, but still active. And they give decrees on the state of mankind's condition. While some may have been bound, there were four bound in Euphrates. But it gives some indication that not all Watchers are evil, some of them may be very right and holy.



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 05:40 PM
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originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: AlephBet

Apart from it being the other way around. Cain was the firstborn Son of Man (Adam means Man), and in effect he belonged to God and was his son. And Abel didn't have the better sacrifice, he simply got all the attention from God, perhaps because his parties were wicked and partly because God invested tons of time in trying to convince him to quit his blood frenzies. For at that point, all life was sacred, and in effect, Abel was the first killer. A story goes that the real reason behind Cain killing his Brother was that Abel killed Cain's pet goat.


Any references to that mess?



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 07:13 PM
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a reply to: windword


Jesus, if he existed, was a mere human man. He wasn't God incarnate or God's breath any more than you or I. I don't subscribe to the trinity, however, the LOGOS as postulated by Plato and expounded by the Essene and Therapeutics, as well as the "name of God", is embodied in a 4 letter word, not 3 letters.

I can't argue that point because I have nothing to prove my philosophy. I can;t prove Jesus even existed and I can't prove God even exists. I also do not subscribe to the Christian trinity. When I said Holy Ghost what I did say was that there was only one Holy Spirit and that is God. In my philosophy if God is true then there can only be one that is Holy and that would be God. If I would accept the trinity then I would have to accept the polytheistic philosophy of gods.

In my understanding Jesus was a total human man of flesh and blood and bones and His spirit was celestial just as your spirit is celestial. So in that respect Jesus was simply a human man who depended upon prayer to His Father God to provide all His needs. Just the same as you and I are today. The only philosophical difference is that your and my spirit were given to us in creation of ourselves whereas Jesus' spirit was preexistence with the Father God. We had no preexistence before our conception. Now remember that this is all my own philosophy (theology).


Preexistence and reincarnation were both espoused by Jews and early Christians, Gnostics and Kabbalists. It's no surprise that Jesus' teachings would also promote preexistence and rebirth.

Jesus did not promote preexistence nor reincarnation of this creation. If you mean the term of resurrection meaning rebirth, then yes. but not rebirth into this physicality of terrestrial life. Rebirth (resurrection) was for one time only and from terrestrial life to celestial life but had nothing in common with reincarnation as is promoted today. Yes rebirth was His doctrine. Even though Jesus was a Jew His doctrine was as day and night with comparison to rabbinic Judaism.


What I find offensive, is men in fancy dresses, pretending to be the bride of Christ, telling men and women about how they should be addressing their gender roles, according to their personal superstitious take on ancient mythology.

I actually have no comment on that without judgment of sorts. I don't really know what is in a person's mind without hearing their teachings. There are many charlatans out there that's for sure but I learned some years back that I can't judge a man by his dress or length of hair. I admit that I thought I could but later in life I found out that i was the charlatan.

One last thought windword, and it pertains to your philosophy. What happens to you when you die? Have you sat and contemplated what nothing could possibly be?



posted on Sep, 9 2014 @ 11:39 PM
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a reply to: Seede




What happens to you when you die? Have you sat and contemplated what nothing could possibly be?


Why do you think nothing happens, or do you think that's what I think?

I think I am, like you are, an eternal spiritual being having a physical experience.


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


I'll go where I go.......I'm not afraid.

Now, let me ask you a question.



We had no preexistence before our conception.


Do you believe that sexual intercourse creates a soul? Does a soul emerge from sperm and egg? If so, wouldn't rape produce a demon?


edit on 9-9-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 10 2014 @ 07:47 AM
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originally posted by: AlephBet

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: AlephBet

Apart from it being the other way around. Cain was the firstborn Son of Man (Adam means Man), and in effect he belonged to God and was his son. And Abel didn't have the better sacrifice, he simply got all the attention from God, perhaps because his parties were wicked and partly because God invested tons of time in trying to convince him to quit his blood frenzies. For at that point, all life was sacred, and in effect, Abel was the first killer. A story goes that the real reason behind Cain killing his Brother was that Abel killed Cain's pet goat.


Any references to that mess?


#1 Cain was the firstborn of Adam and Eve ==> Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gottena a man with the help of the LORD.” [ESV] Genesis 4:1

The above verse can also be translated "I have born a son of Yahveh"

#2 All firstborns belong to God ==> The LORD said to Moses, “Consecrate to me all the firstborn. Whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and of beast, is mine.” [ESV] Exodus13:1f

#3 biblehub.com... ==> Adam means Man, thus his sons are the Sons of Man

#4 The part about Cain's goat is an anecdote. I have no real scriptural reference for that one. Same goes with the reasons why God was amassed by killing and slaughtering sheep and goats, it's my own speculations. But look at who still perform such sacrifices today. Woodoo and Satanism?
edit on 10-9-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: restructured



posted on Sep, 10 2014 @ 08:58 AM
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a reply to: TinfoilTP


There were the Watchers, a small group of angels which did come down to earth. They left their abode for an earthly one. They were chained and awaiting final judgement. Then there is their offspring which they produced during the 1500 years or so they were here, they are the Nephilim. It does not say if they reproduced or even could. They were killed.

Let me walk through this with you. You have great points to consider.
The Watchers in the Enochian story are the 200 angels who left the celestial realm in premeditated conspiracy to become procreationists of the Adamic seed. This union between humans and angels produced the nephilim (Giants). This reproduction of the nephilim became so great that life could not support their hunger or thirst for blood.
The 200 angels (Watchers) were then imprisoned in various places of confinement till judgment when they will be destroyed.


Then there are the tribes of nephilim encountered in the promised land way after Noah's time. If the Watchers were chained, and their offspring all killed off by the flood, where did they come from? Either they survived the flood, some Watchers evaded confinement, or a new batch of Watchers left their Angelic places. The first two options are impossible because that would make God less than omnipotent.

After the flood of Noah which killed off the Nephilim there were giants in the new land but they were not the Nephilim. The giants such as Og were not Nephilim. These were giants of the Adamic seed and it was these giants which the Hebrews encountered in their journey to the promised land. The last of the giants such as Goliath and his brothers were destroyed by King David. But these were not the Nephilim. The Nephilim were all destroyed in the flood.


Also from your chronology, you state the Angelic wars were before Adamic times and all were dealt with. You left out their leader who got them to rebel, he was next seen working in the garden of Eden, if all were defeated and cast into chains of darkness, how is Satan in the Garden of Eden?

All angels who sinned against God in both the war in heaven and the 200 watchers were and still are imprisoned till judgment. But here is where most people do not understand. Evil is a spirit of disobedience. It is not a personage as some imagine. When the Christ Jesus returns to govern this world for one thousand years, He binds Satan who was released in the great tribulation. Now even though Satan is bound into the pit the spirit of evil is still present in this world. This is shown as the Word of God rules with a mighty fist of iron. People will still live and die in His reign and there will still be sin and individual judgments at death.

Now just as the disobedient angels were bound the spirit of disobedience is still in the earth. Sin is not destroyed till the final white throne judgment when it will be cast into the lake of fire. Sin is actually death. By sin you die and without sin you will not die. Therefore death is the last enemy of this creation and is cast into the lake of fire. So by this you can understand that just because the angels are imprisoned does not negate sin. The personage (Satan) was not involved in the Gan Eden account. It was the Beast who embraced the spirit of disobedience (sin) and tempted Eve. Satan the personage was not involved in the sentencing of the Beast, Eve and Adam.

An example would be Heaven. After Lucifer and his host were cast out of heaven, the spirit of disobedience was not destroyed. The angels who were left in heaven still had the choice to sin and they did sin. This is shown when the 200 angels then decided to take human wives.

Insofar as the Beast in the garden of Eden is concerned, it was not the Lucifer who was faulted because he was bound in the earth. It was the spirit of disobedience which the beast had embraced and tempted Eve. The punishments of which God then made were not on the head of Lucifer but upon the beast who God then changed into the serpent. God could not be unjust and He was not unjust. The perpetrators were the beast, Eve, and Adam. Now this is not to say that when Lucifer was first cast out of heaven that he did not teach this spirit of evil to the creation which could have included the beast. We do not know how long this Lucifer and his host were on this earth before they became imprisoned.



Also in Revelation there is the... "woe to you of earth and sea because the devil has come down to you in great wrath because he knows his time is short"

This is the spirit of disobedience and also of some confusion. There are many Satan’s. Now I may have stepped into a big conflict here but will give my own philosophy. Let us say that Lucifer was the head angel who started all of this. This head angel is bound in chains today. Then who is the Satan who confronted Jesus? He was also a spirit that had embraced sin but was not this Lucifer. A Satan is any personage that is Antichrist. There are many Antichrist’s and were there when Jesus walked this earth. An Antichrist is a Satan whether it be a Nephilim or a living person. Both are in this world today but only the Nephilim are the offspring of the Watchers.

1John_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1John_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1John_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Why doesn't the bible call a Satan the antichrist? Because in that day before Jesus, the Christ was not revealed. Satan's and antichrist's can be the same. All Satan's are Antichrist but not all Antichrist's are Satan's. A Satan must be a spirit but an Antichrist can be either a human or spirit.



posted on Sep, 10 2014 @ 09:27 AM
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a reply to: Seede

That is true, we don't know how long they were here.

There are other references to the dragon, as Revelation says "I saw satan cast out of heaven like lightning".

But here is the interesting thing, Chinese people believe themselves to be descendants of the dragon


In the minds of the early Chinese people, the dragon was a god that embodied the will and ideals of the Chinese people. It is said that the dragon is a large-scaled reptile, which can become dark or bright, large or small, long or short, and fly into the sky in the spring and live underwater in the fall. It seems that the dragon is capable of doing almost anything.


If they perceived the dragon as a god that they are descended from, then what Enoch saying about the concept of those spiritual entities capable of breeding with people must have basis in reality if another culture separate and apart from where Enoch was at.

BTW, I think the translators of the Book of Enoch that got it from an earlier account must have confused two place names. Enoch was from Central Asia, but the two places, Mt. Sinai and Mt. Hermon are in the Middle East. But then again, the Epic of Gilgamesh mentions Lebanon, because that is where they defeated Tiamat at.

Another interesting thing that I discovered was that Nikkal, the goddess of fruit trees was called "The Lady of the Forest" and married to Yahrick in Canaanite/Ugarit pantheon, actually finds mention in the Song of Solomon as "blossom". The Hebrew nikkal relates to the same overall imagery.

I know that in linguistics, for a word to be shared then it must denote the same imagery and meaning as in another language. That's how they trace the IndoEuropean language from its origin. But then I question this, why is it that Shamash is known as the Akkadian sun god, but Shamash is also the middle candle of the menorah from which all other candles are lit from?

Shamash the sun god is a light and his symbol is a star with radiating beams, but Shamash is also found in Hebrew names, which means light. Some say it means helper, but that's how Shamash was perceived, as a helper.

But then, and this one is very interesting to me, when someone dies, their family has a Shiva, a period of mourning, and Shiva in early Hinduism is the god associated with death, but also maintaining. Shiva the destroyer that brings death, but also Jewish people sit shiva when mourning. Death is connected to both.

And here is also from that link above


There are also nine ways the Chinese have traditionally represented these dragons, each one revealing a different dragon characteristic. There are dragons carved on tops of bells and gongs due to the beast's habit of shrieking when attacked.

A second type is carved on the screws of fiddles since most dragons are fond of music.
A third is carved on tops of stone tablets because of dragons' love of literature.
A fourth is found at the bottom of stone monuments since dragons can support heavy weights.
A fifth is placed on the eaves of temples since dragons are always alert to danger.
A sixth appears on the beams of bridges since dragons are fond of water.
A seventh is carved on Buddha's throne since dragons like to rest.
An eighth is placed on the hilts of swords since dragons are also capable of killing.
The ninth is carved on prison gates since such dragons are fond of quarreling and trouble-making.


Dragons are fond of music, they can kill and they are fond of quarreling and trouble making. This doesn't seem to be coincidental of the very things that Enoch describes. Clearly something was going on in ancient days if the same ideas are expressed.



posted on Sep, 10 2014 @ 10:27 AM
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a reply to: windword


Do you believe that sexual intercourse creates a soul? Does a soul emerge from sperm and egg? If so, wouldn't rape produce a demon?

Yes Windword i do believe that human sexual intercourse procreates a dead soul but that only God gives it life though a spirit. When that life enters that soul is another matter of which I know nothing. That is what all this abortion conflict is about. A soul does emerge from the union of sperm and egg but the spirit is instilled by God. Soul actually means body. Adam was created a dead soul and then God breathed the breath of life into that dead soul and it became a living soul.

God has permissive will and perfect will. I believe sin is sin. I do not believe that anyone can slide by with a little sin compared to a big sin (if that even exists). Rape is no more sinful than adultery or prostitution or stealing a dime from another. All un repented sin is death. Makes no difference to God. Some religions have degrees of sin but that is not scriptural to my understanding. A child of God knows no Father but God and each person becomes what they will be by their own mind. Not simply because some one else trespassed.

Demons are all spirits of the Nephilim and cannot be created by the Adamic seed through rape or adultery or any other natural means.



posted on Sep, 10 2014 @ 11:22 AM
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a reply to: WarminIndy


Dragons are fond of music, they can kill and they are fond of quarreling and trouble making. This doesn't seem to be coincidental of the very things that Enoch describes. Clearly something was going on in ancient days if the same ideas are expressed.

You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge WarminIndy. In my old age i simply do not have the recall that you bring forth.

I agree with you that something was going on all over the world at the same time and even in different eras. Actually as you look at history it does not take long for a culture to be born and for a culture to become perverted or corrupt. We can see this in most countries today in comparing them from just a few years ago. I understand that science does say that the Chinese originated from east Africa thousands of years ago but I have doubts on the time frame.

You bring up a good perspective in dragons when you perceive them as serpents. Dragons are mentioned in 18 verses in most bibles and serpent is mentioned 36 times in most bibles from OT to NT. They are used interchangeably and are connected with being a serpent. In all cases of the bible they are used in derogatory manner.

The most amazing thing is what you have said about the Chinese culture in that they adopted the dragon in most all of their culture but that they do not regard the dragon or serpent as being evil. That is in direct conflict with the garden story where God regards the serpent as a derogatory creature.



posted on Sep, 10 2014 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: Seede

Revelation 12:9, 20:2


The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.



He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.


It is clear who the serpent of Genesis is, but you have to modify or exclude scripture for your philosophy to stand. If a philosophy goes against scripture, it is the philosophy which needs adjusting never the scripture.



posted on Sep, 10 2014 @ 12:03 PM
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a reply to: Seede

I think the most intriguing thing is that they regard themselves as descendants. That means that they consider their ancestors as a hybrid of a spiritual entity.

That follows the same story given by Enoch, that spiritual entities did come down to breed with human women. I wouldn't want people to think I was saying anything negative about the Chinese, only that their culture has mirrored the exact thing that Enoch said.

To me, that was what was intriguing about it.



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