My views on IS, the ME, and terrorism in general

I think it's safe to say everybody here at ATS has heard of IS or ISIL or ISIS, whatever, and the "threat" they pose to America. I've read lots of comments about how we need to fight them over there before we have to fight them over here, which reminds me of Bush's speech. But what threat do they really pose to us here in America? Saddam with his SCUD missiles and chemical weapons that WE gave him posed no threat to the US and yet we had to go in there to "neutralize" the threat. Iran MAY have/develop nuclear weapons that MAY pose a threat to us and some people want to bomb them back to the stone age like we have done time and time again. North Korea, China, Russia, etc. already have that capability and yet they haven't tried anything yet and some people are pissed about that for various reasons. Israel has nukes and are a non signatory to the non-proliferation treaty but we just look the other way because they advance our interests in the Middle East.

Let's look at the reality here for a second. Debatably, the biggest threat the US has seen since the cold war was Al-queda during 9/11. America was changed forever on that fateful day and that saddens me to my core. Everything that has happened since has meant the terrorists won. We all lost a bit of our freedoms and liberty that day and every day since and that's exactly what they wanted. But what threat do they really pose to us? Sure they can kill a lot of people but what psychopath with a large bomb/plan can't? I can tell you for sure having our military halfway across the world isn't going to protect us here at home at all.

Some people seem to think it's our duty to be the world police/bringer of order globally but if someone doesn't want to live by our rules, nothing our military can do is going to change that mindset. Why does it seem it's always our way or the highway? Does America really have the moral high ground? I think not. I don't care what authority someone might think they have, hearts and minds are hard to sway and even more so when up against someone who from the start thinks they are superior.

Now don't get me wrong, America needs to help/defend her allies but at what point does an ally go from being a friend to a hindrance. Friendships can break down over time/be broken. Just because we were allies in the past doesn't mean we need to stay allies forever. I mean Russia was the West's ally when fighting Hitler until the whole cold war happened. Allegiances change for various reasons, they aren't forever. Nothing's forever.

Ok I've gone off on several different tangents here but maybe some will see the wisdom in my post. If not, well I guess I tried. All thought's and opinions are appreciated but let's keep it civil please. Mod's I posted this in the terrorism forum but wasn't quite sure if it fit here or not, you know what to do.

There's nothing new under the sun. We are born into bondage and for those in the "east" it is largely physical. For those born into the west it is largely psychological.

What I've noticed over the years is nothing short of a grand act where fools take center stage completely unawares. As soon as one of those fools cries foul another "plot" is injected into the storyline. Much like the show "Lost". Only recently did I notice people starting to recognize the tremendous social engineering being waged on us and than BAM! Beheading after beheading after beheading.

Out out brief candle.

I appreciate your post for exactly what it is.
I think you are right.
I think you touched on something also which is worth exploring further:- "they advance our interests in the Middle East."
Unfortunately all the time the "West" maintains their hidden agendas your hope will not come to fruition. In an ideal world, we will live how we like, and allow others to do the same. Obviously tyrants must be stopped, but not at the cost of creating four more in their place.
I have been reading theories into IS being one big false flag - at least that will hopefully not result in another horror like 9-11.

IS isn't a direct threat to America but is definitely a threat to American interests in the ME. But, at the same time they are kind of the perfect "boogeyman" that the US needs for support for operations in the ME so it's kind of a catch-22.

I could see this played out in a few ways.

1. The US lets them grow enough to start threatening US interests (Majority of oil in the ME controlled by a single Caliphate?) Pressure from global community to start precision air strikes and drone attacks while other ME countries front the war to unite the ME with this new collective.

2. The US lets them grow enough to at least temporarily satisfy their lust for growth in the new Caliphate and they use Saudi connections to broker deals with IS, implement some kind of subversive peace by continuing relations through the Saudis.

3. Let them build up just enough that they start threatening Turkey, Israel or Pakistan and the US comes in full force with support of the international community and a multi front force goes in to lay havoc. Turn on the propaganda machines and watch the world spin with war rage "down with IS".

1 is unlikely in that it would be extremely hard to get the rest of ME cooperating but on that point, Iran even offered to team up with America so its not totally insane.

2 I don't think could happen simply because of the possible blowback and conspiratorial nature of the play.

3 Possible in that it would be a way for America to come back as a welcomed world police force.

a reply to: TheRisenPeople

I have been reading theories into IS being one big false flag - at least that will hopefully not result in another horror like 9-11.

Watch the Vice documentary on IS. It is already worse than 911. Maybe not for Americans, but I feel very sorry for all the Christians displaced and the secular Arabs who have been thrown into Muslim reeducation camps, or simply dismembered or staked into crucifixes.

These guys are really nuts. Running around killing people until they control a region, then enforcing "the will of god" like forcing people to cover their wives, follow the quran to the letter of their interpretation, under the penalties of reeducation (includes whipping), cutting the hands off people, stoning, etc, etc. Basic Sharia "I want to live in the stone ages because I have a small penis" nonsense.

Thanks all for your replies, everybody gets a star for replying to my threads.

a reply to: boncho

I agree the things they do are despicable. I just don't understand why those people put up with it but at the same time I can't fault them for their beliefs/feelings on the matter. The people of the region need to do better for themselves before any outside influence is going to help them change things. And maybe they don't want that change. I can't see why they would want to live like that but it's not my place to tell them it's wrong.

DP please delete.

a reply to: thov420

Saddam with his SCUD missiles and chemical weapons that WE gave him

As far as the scud, Russia 'Gave/Sold' him scud missiles as well as Russian made Tanks, BMPS, Jet Fighters, Bombers, Choppers, AK-47s, Helmets, Boots, Belt Buckles and Socks. As far as chemical weapons technology, guilty as charged but the US wasn't the first nor the only one.

Iraq's Chemical Weapons Program suppliers by country

• Singapore
  
• Brazil
  
• India
  
• Germany
  
• Spain
  
• Belgium
  
• Netherlands
  
• China
  
• France
  
• Britain
  
• United States of America
  

Source

Linky here
In the late 1970's, it was actually the German firm 'Karl Kobe' that sold Iraq the ingredients for it's first chemical weapons. Karl Kobe and others sold Iraq over 1,027 tons of the chemicals needed to produce mustard gas, Sarin, Tabun, and various tear gasses including CS and CN. The chemical weapons program was operational by late 1983/early 1984.

The United States CDC (Center for Disease Control) provided Iraq with biological samples up until 1989 for "Medical research and other purposes". The US supplied anthrax, West Nile virus, botulism, and Brucella melitensis to Iraq for little or no charge.

The United Kingdom paid, in full, for the Iraqi chlorine plant where mustard gas was manufactured. Brazil provided around 100 tons of mustard gas in the early 80's before the British funded plant was up and running. Singapore and India provided the ingredients for VX nerve agent and yet still more Tabun.

Egypt and Spain both provided the majority of Iraq's munitions that were designed to carry and disperse the chemical weapons. In 1984, a CIA leak reported to the Washington Post that the CIA was providing intel to the Iraqis, including the targeting information and coordinates where Iraq used it's chemical weapons against Iran.

Iran MAY have/develop nuclear weapons that MAY pose a threat to us and some people want to bomb them back to the stone age like we have done time and time again

The US has bombed Iran back to the stone age time and time again? Could you source some of these mass bombings of Iran please?

North Korea, China, Russia, etc. already have that capability and yet they haven't tried anything yet and some people are pissed about that for various reasons

North Korea threatens their neighbors just about every other month going back decades. Russia just annexed part of a neighboring sovereign nation. China has had border clashes with the USSR, India and had invaded Vietnam back in 1979 to 'Teach them a lesson' Meanwhile, the Vietnamese sent them packing with their tails between their legs after just a month or two.

Let's look at the reality here for a second

Yes

Agreed.

the biggest threat the US has seen since the cold war was Al-queda during 9/11

The biggest threat to the US is the American Government and Corporations turning a blind eye to the American people and lack of jobs, The economic slowdown kills jobs, middle class, tax bases and funds for all their high-tech wonder-weapons etc.

In the meantime, Politicians/Corporate CEOs fill their pockets while our cities and infrastructure crumble.

Now don't get me wrong, America needs to help/defend her allies but at what point does an ally go from being a friend to a hindrance. Friendships can break down over time/be broken. Just because we were allies in the past doesn't mean we need to stay allies forever. I mean Russia was the West's ally when fighting Hitler until the whole cold war happened.

The Soviets gobbled up quite a few States and Territory and wouldn't give them back nor let them go. Eastern Europe became very draconian.

The Cold War should be something we learn from, not something to be relived in our modern times. We've been there and done that.

a reply to: boncho

IS isn't a direct threat to America but is definitely a threat to American interests in the ME.

1. They are a threat to World Order and they are a threat to the World's reserve currency. That's probably enough to garner some unwarranted attention. I like the way you think.

2. The differences between people who practice Islam and those who don't is a wide enough gulf to produce an enduring Us -vs- Them mindset. Atrocities occur in such gulfs.

When you see things 'by the numbers' the wedge becomes more evident.

a reply to: thov420

Well considering most of you posters above are American and you sound like decent nice people I have to apologize first and then ask you the question if you have ever at least considered the possibility of ISIS or Al Qaeda or any other terrorist groups being manufactured and supported by your own government?!...I mean governments do mean nasty stuff,and to any ones surprise! the US government is not an exception to the rule.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Slayer I've always respected you and your posts on ATS so let me address your questions. When I said bomb them back to the stone age like we have done time and time again, I meant countries in general, not Iran specifically because obviously that hasn't happened. When I said those countries haven't tried anything, I meant anything against the US. And I completely agree, the US government, or more specifically US corporations, are the biggest threat to liberty on the planet today. Their job is only to make money for their shareholders/owners above all else is a major part of the reason we are in the situation we are in today.

a reply to: thov420

Now don't get me wrong, America needs to help/defend her allies but at what point does an ally go from being a friend to a hindrance. Friendships can break down over time/be broken. Just because we were allies in the past doesn't mean we need to stay allies forever.

So..when an ally needs our help then we should dump them, right? Feckless and without honor.

I agree that we do not need to be the world's police. Totally agree.

But in the course of your post, you state that Al-Q was a threat to the US, but then imply that ISIS is not. Is it simply because they have not attacked us yet? From what I see they pretty much have the same view of the west, but ISIS is a bit more extreme about their approach, so far.

a reply to: Snarl

Point 1- I think you are spot on. IMHO the world's reserve currency is considered the world order and America would do anything to hold onto that as long as they can.

Point 2- It seems there always has to be sides to every conflict. You're either with us or against us kind of thing. Just like sports teams. It's a way to divide the little people to support an agenda that isn't in their best interests.

a reply to: shapur

I have had that thought in the back of my mind from the beginning. I believe 9/11 and other atrocities wouldn't be possible without at least knowledge or approval from high level government officials. There is a reason It's called Al-CIAda around here for a reason. The government will do what it thinks it has to for it's own best interests and the American people's best interest seems to always be an afterthought.

a reply to: bbracken677

No, I meant when an ally is no longer also looking out for out best interest maybe we should reconsider looking at them as an ally, friendships can be very strong but when one damages that, the friendship/alliance needs to be reconsidered.

Lot's of groups hate the "West", we don't bomb them all do we? And even if we do, we can't get the western hating people to stop hating us with bombs, that just isn't going to work.

originally posted by: thov420
a reply to: shapur

I have had that thought in the back of my mind from the beginning. I believe 9/11 and other atrocities wouldn't be possible without at least knowledge or approval from high level government officials. There is a reason It's called Al-CIAda around here for a reason. The government will do what it thinks it has to for it's own best interests and the American people's best interest seems to always be an afterthought.

People of the world are mostly looking for a better future for themselves and their children,we all work and study hard to have a better earth for the next generation.We like cooperating and socializing and playing with other people despite the cultural differences and official obligations and laws.We basically live in the 21st century while the elites of the world are still living in meddle ages...They mostly have the same dreams and wishes as their ancestors did and they do anything to make them into realities as they have always done throughout the history.

a reply to: shapur

I 100% agree with you there. 99% of people just want to live their lives and help their children become better people. It's the crazy people at the top that ruin it for the rest of us.

originally posted by: shapur
a reply to: thov420

Well considering most of you posters above are American and you sound like decent nice people I have to apologize first and then ask you the question if you have ever at least considered the possibility of ISIS or Al Qaeda or any other terrorist groups being manufactured and supported by your own government?!...

I'll take a stab at this....

Of course we do, hell, on a daily basis here at ATS. Why do you ask?

It seems while most here acknowledge it as a contributing factor take note though, there is an overly vocal minority that seem hell bent on blaming everything under the sun here on Earth that goes wrong or sideways on the US/West then which they turn right around and ignore the second part of your reply.

I mean governments do mean nasty stuff,and to any ones surprise! the US government is not an exception to the rule.

This is where we have the source for many debates and cases of denial that there are other boogeymen not just the US/West.

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: shapur
a reply to: thov420

Well considering most of you posters above are American and you sound like decent nice people I have to apologize first and then ask you the question if you have ever at least considered the possibility of ISIS or Al Qaeda or any other terrorist groups being manufactured and supported by your own government?!...

I'll take a stab at this....

Of course we do, hell, on a daily bases here at ATS. Why do you ask?

It seems while most here acknowledge it as a contributing factor take note though, there are an overly vocal minority that seems hell bent on blaming everything under the sun here on Earth that goes wrong or sideways on the US/West then which turn right around and ignore the second part of your reply.

I mean governments do mean nasty stuff,and to any ones surprise! the US government is not an exception to the rule.

This is where we have the source for many debates and cases of denial that there are other boogeymen not just the US/West.

I'll have some milk with that...Yes,,as i said all governments are doing at least some evil and believe me the US/UK and Israel have done a heck of a good job as to being an evil boogeyman ,and they have proved it to the world over and over again.

originally posted by: shapur
Yes,,as i said all governments are doing at least some evil

Glad we agree.