Ukraine 'agrees truce' with Putin

a reply to: victor7

I don't deny it, on the contrary. However, I will point it out anywhere and I am not naive enough to think for one moment my Government is good and others are bad. They all get up this crap. If you think Russia has not been meddling in Ukraine as much as, or even more than, the West, it is you living in denial.

At least in our Countries, we can protest freely and hold our Governments to account - try doing that in Russia and see how far you get. Even now, journalists are being harassed and their cars attacked to intimidate them into not reporting on the secret burials and missing soldiers of the Russian Parachute divisions. for example.

a reply to: stumason

Russia has STRATEGIC reasons to meddle in Ukraine. Kremlin's NATIONAL SECURITY is in danger in Ukraine joins NATO. Period !!

Regarding protest rights etc. those are minor things and very much more minor than PROVOKING a civil war in a third world country and have 100s of thousands killed and millions hurt or displaced.

In Russia you can still protest but under the permit from city during an allocated time period at a predetermined place. After that time is up, you have to leave. Nothing different than any other civilized country.

Regarding secret burials harassment........ that is same as not showing body bags arriving in the US from Afghanistan and Iraq. In a way you are "numbing" your society to "killing".

Do not blow up minor factors of other nations and Do not cover up the major factors of your own.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: jedi_hamster

Examples of NATO doing whatever it is you're accusing them of would be great, rather than stamping your feet because people hold a different viewpoint.

All of NATO's involvements have been under the auspices of a UN mandate, therefore no breach of national Sovereignty has occurred as the UN has authorised intervention. Even Iraq 2003 - which wasn't NATO at all - was technically legal under UN mandates concerning Chemical weapons, even if it was stretched.

And while we're crying like a little girl about hypocrisy in the "past decades", I assume then you're going to hold Russia to the same level of criticism and account as you do NATO countries? After all, they held much of Eastern Europe under tight control for nigh on 50 years, including invading any countries that attempted to overthrow and replace the corrupt, unrepresentative and /or dictatorial regimes put in place by Moscow...

Oh, hang on, that sounds familiar, doesn't it? Let me think....

and who gives the UN a mandate to decide? the UN being manipulated by the very countries that start those conflicts? why should they have the right to decide what's right?

all those interventions were based on false accusations and often fabricated proof. what good came out of it? iraq? libya? syria? everywhere they go, genocide follows. how's that a good thing?

USA was always protecting their own interests, even if it had to lie about its true intentions - which is most of the time. the thing is, they didn't protect their interests in their own backyard, but all over the world. they're the bully of this planet and that's quite obvious to most.

but they never like to get their own hands dirty when they can use someone else to do their job. that's i guess the whole reason NATO was formed - not to protect, but to conquer. wherever USA decides to go next, often the next thing you see are soldiers from other countries, because their governments were promised a cut in fixing the destruction that follows. wanna go to an army? what if you'll end up in some eastern s...hole, protecting american interests, not yours? how will you feel about it then?

if they wouldn't interfere with russian economic ties with the rest of europe, dollar would go downhill pretty fast. it still will, they're just slowing it down so far. they need a war with russia to fix that. a war they're not willing to fight on their own, because the whole europe is a big enough cannon fodder supply for that. heck, who says they won't say 'screw you' to the NATO? 'your job is almost done, just finish your last thing and die'.

why do you think USA pushes for the economic sanctions against russia that much? those economic ties whole europe had with russia were a threat to the mighty dollar, so they had to destroy them. and they're doing a pretty good job at it, aren't they?

USA got its second breath, but make no mistake, that's not enough. this whole thing will go south sooner or later, because either we'll get a war to prevent the collapse of the dollar, or we'll get a war being a result of said collapse.

stay safe.

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
and who gives the UN a mandate to decide? the UN being manipulated by the very countries that start those conflicts? why should they have the right to decide what's right?

Let's see, who has veto power on the USNC....

The USA, they're evil so check.
France, they're evil too, so check.
The UK, the most evil place on the planet, so check.

Oh, hang on...

Russia? And China? Hmmmm.... There's a spanner in the works right there.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: stumason

Russia has STRATEGIC reasons to meddle in Ukraine. Kremlin's NATIONAL SECURITY is in danger in Ukraine joins NATO. Period !!

Only because the Russian leadership is stuck in the 1980's do they view NATO as a threat. NATO wanted Russia on board, Russia could have been a key player in NATO, but they're own paranoia prevented it.

originally posted by: victor7
Regarding protest rights etc. those are minor things and very much more minor than PROVOKING a civil war in a third world country and have 100s of thousands killed and millions hurt or displaced.

Like Russia has done in the not so distant past? So what's your point?

originally posted by: victor7
In Russia you can still protest but under the permit from city during an allocated time period at a predetermined place. After that time is up, you have to leave. Nothing different than any other civilized country.

Actually, yes, it is very different from any other "civilised" country. I do not require a "permit" to protest. I do require permission from the Police to hold a march, but that can onyl be refused on safety grounds and not political ones. A static protest cannot be prevented.

originally posted by: victor7
Regarding secret burials harassment........ that is same as not showing body bags arriving in the US from Afghanistan and Iraq. In a way you are "numbing" your society to "killing".

Not showing body bags on the evening news, but still counting the dead in an acknowledged war is a world apart from what Russia is doing. And the reporters didn't get harassed for reporting on those casualties, questioning the war or what have you.

EDIT: I would add, in the UK, the bringing home of the dead was widely reported and attended by People and the media. Wooten Basset became famous for it and had it's name changed as a sign of respect for the respectable way the dead were brought home in the town.

a reply to: victor7

Regarding secret burials harassment...

Secret burials? Don't believe even the ukrainian questions, they are lying allways:

a reply to: maghun

Aren't those the bodies of the soldiers they dug up from the battle of Leningrad - as in from World War 2? They recently repatriated several hundred they had dug up this year.

Link to Story

a reply to: maghun

Also, if you pause the video at certain points (1:06) you can see a date from 2013... So I think you're trying to pull a fast one hoping no one would notice.

its a civil war,,


Ukrainine/Russians fighting killing, shelling,,etc,,Russian/Ukrainians,,,

reminds me of another bloody Civil War,,

Britian/France with those Colonists from long ago,,,

But thats Europe for u,,and why,from ww1 before ww2 nobody gave a shiite about Europeon Wars,,,cause it was always innevitable,, cause its Europe.

a reply to: maghun

The story about secret burials was broke by Russian journalists. Those Russian journalists interviewed other Russians who told them the military hospitals were suddenly overcrowded. Those Russian journalists interviewed the Russian families of those dead Russian soldiers and were told by those few that actually knew how their loved ones died that they couldn't talk about it because it was confidential.

Yep. I see what you mean. This whole secret burials story is just a Ukrainian lie. I mean look at how involved they were with breaking this story.

a reply to: jedi_hamster

and now you've just made a huge mistake. no paycheck from uncle sam for this one.

And how is that, because you seem to not understand what was posted and why?

you've used a photo, showing presidential elections in donetsk region, and rebels destroying ballot boxes (for those presidential elections) to claim that the government in kiev was legally elected?

No he showed the separatists destroying the stolen ballot boxes that were for those Ukranians in that region to vote for their president...of Ukraine.

And here is a pic of those stolen ballot boxes...



Which btw comes from your own link.

And just so you know the leaders of the separatists were placed there by Russia...they weren't elected.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

"Ukrainian" regions, and don't forget the 23 years of oligarch-supported "independence":

Galicia - 45 years with Moscow, 465 with Poland, 150 with Austria
Transcarpathia - 45 years with Moscow, 25 with Slovakia, 1000+/- with Hungary
Volyn - 170 years, 470 with Poland
Vinnitsia/Zhitomir - 220 years with Moscow, 420 with Poland
Kiev/Sumy/Poltava/Kharkov/Kirovohrad - 340 years with Moscow, 300 with Poland
Southern/Eastern Ukraine - 220 years, no Polish time of influence

I think Russians can defend Russians from mercenaries and neo-nazis.

a reply to: BasementWarriorKryptonite

Putin proposed the ceasefire terms.

Nowhere does it says that Putin agreed to ceasefire terms.

The ceasefire is between Ukraine and separatists states of Donetsk and Lugansk.

As for longevity of ceasefire - depends on American masters of Kiev government. Poroshenko remains an American stooge and nothing changed there.

The ceasefire will allow the national elections to proceed including in eastern area. I think this is the reason why Poroshenko agreed to it in the first place. So ceasefire will hold for some time.

I find it amusing that NATO will bring Ukraine to "NATO level". Building an Ukrainian army to NATO equipment will take more than 100B and years. We shall see how this bluster translates to reality.

However unfortunate fact is that Ukraine has become the place of east-west battle that translates to total destruction of its infrastructure and massive loss of life. It is still time common sense descends on Ukrainians. There is no advantage in trying to destroy Russia. Ukrainians must desist from attempts to destroy Russia. Russia will not be cowed down by NATO. This will only get uglier if NATO continues to move.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: victor7

I don't deny it, on the contrary. However, I will point it out anywhere and I am not naive enough to think for one moment my Government is good and others are bad. They all get up this crap. If you think Russia has not been meddling in Ukraine as much as, or even more than, the West, it is you living in denial.

At least in our Countries, we can protest freely and hold our Governments to account - try doing that in Russia and see how far you get. Even now, journalists are being harassed and their cars attacked to intimidate them into not reporting on the secret burials and missing soldiers of the Russian Parachute divisions. for example.

You do deny it, constantly, along with all the others.

Frankly it has gotten way beyond stupid, reading the posts of this type.

You guys are either acting stupid, or are actually this far gone into WW3, you want it , you are going to have it.

You go ahead and protest something, hold your government to account, let me know when and where this has ever actually happened.

The lot of you who side with the so called "West" are actually worse off than the supposed other side, you will lose FAR MORE in this war you all wish us to march to......the same garbage is repeating , but you did not live through it, you need to see for yourselves.

Well , Read Albert Pike , a real hero of Freemasonry and make the distinction, of what he said, I narrowed down his timeline to summer of 2014 for the World War 3 to start, seeing as he got the other battles to the DAY practically, AND seeing what he describes as the need for said war......well you are going to be begging for the mercies of ANYONE, when this one is through, it will make the first 2 look like a game of Kick-The-Can.

And you are playing large roles in it, directing your thoughts towards the total chaos and disconnects that are sought.

What you DO NOT realize, and most don't , is that those who feel they are on the WINNING SIDE, IE the WEST, are going to have by far the most crazy painful wakeup time imaginable,

Get Ready to accept the Pure Doctrines of Lucifer, be warned, no adjustment period will be offered!!

I find it very strange that USA/NATO fought in Yugoslavia etc. on the basis of will of the people or democracy. Now the will of people in Crimea and East Ukraine do not matter. The West is consumed by its own greed. It has shamelessly interfered with many countries in Eastern Europe in the name of "democracy" but the same principles are applied selectively. It is clear that word "democracy" is used only for profit. The purveyors of "democracy" continue to support most heinous and ruthless middle-eastern regimes, where supposed principles of democracy do not apply.

My study of American democracy told me that American political system is about a complex web of connections and perhaps secret societies and the political power is attained through the help of press controlled by wealthy individuals who have direct stakes in the political system. While it may seem so, running for a public office for a commoner is virtually impossible. The selection of candidates is a highly arbitrary process which allows only certain connected and indoctrinated individuals to run. The public may be happy that they vote but they actually have no real choice, as the candidates do not represent their interests.

However this is true that this system with its promotion of science and technology has worked very well for a long time. Unfortunately it has reached the end of its lifetime.

The Russians are under great pressure at the moment. They have tried to build a west leaning system for last 25 years and have failed. They tried to identify themselves as Europeans but Europeans have rejected them. The Russian economy and Russian society has to undergo a transformation at a time of crisis. None of it is easy.

However Russia will emerge victorious if it tries. All it has to do is to try.

The West has Interfered in Eastern Europe.. Because of Ethic cleansing and totalitarianism.
The West wants Peace and trade with it's neighbours, NOT war.

It is Russia who carries out acts of aggression on it's neighbours ,interfering and making
threats to nuke Poland etc.(I mean WTF)

Russian news reels are rewinding.. not looking forward to a better future for its people.
They don't seem to be able to stop themselves becoming a dictatorial power with an aggressive foreign policy.

www.atlanticcouncil.org...-Rrn6P_Y.twitter

Oh and the secret burials ...... I suggest you fire up twitter and search on "secret burials".


a reply to: GargIndia

a reply to: GargIndia
The comparison with Yugoslava is a good one. When it fits the bill USA will do what it wants, when it doesn't it will turn cheek. Those Russians holding out for their elected President being persecuted by Right Sector and varied aligned Nazis in revolutionary Kiev parliamnent should get protection from us just like Yugoslav muslims got it. It's all a haze, I honestly don't believe anything our media says on these issues. Remember how the BBC rammed it down our throats how Serbs were treating thier muslims in Kosovo. Soon as the boots on the other foot and those muslims discriminate against the Serbs in north kosovo, they never mention hardly anything. We had it during Suez, we could have kept hold of Suez and remained a world power with the Empire going forward (less India of course) but the USA stabbed us and the French in the back, because it didn't suit them. USA will only be on your side when it suits them, there's no real special relationship

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
How on earth can Putin agree to a truce if he isn't behind the rebel violence? Hmm...

The fact is that the Ukrankian army had being losing heavily and were forced to withdraw. That really says it all.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

Last year the elected Parliament in Kiev was legally elected. This year, somehow, that exact same parliament, made up of the exact same members, is supposedly a junta.

This parliament has no strength no voice it is under the control of Right Wing Right Sector elements.

No, actually it isn't.

Svobda has 37 seats out of 450 - but hey, don't let facts gt in your way...

Even a pro-Russian candidate running for president was publicly and brutally assaulted. Pro-Russian voices inside the parliament are subdued with physical violence and threats to family and businesses etc. That is a jungle thug culture not a democracy.

The leader of Right Sector threatened the Porky Poro to free his criminal buddies from jail without any prosecution. The threats were complied with 2 days.

The parliament is a SHAM and until the Right Wing influence is removed, no parliament or president will have any legitimacy.

Got any actual evidence to support any of htese clams? Are you sure you aren't thinking of Putin's puppies??

Right wing influence is perfectly legitimate if people elect them - that's what democracy is - not surprised you don't understand it though