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Christianity and Freemasonry

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posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Leveller

But the answer may be mundane, a little disappointing and down to nothing more than politics.

At the time of Akhenaten, most of Egypt's power had been devolved to the priests. With the hundreds of deities on offer, the priests had become more powerful than the Pharoah himself. It's quite possible and has been suggested that Akhenaten scrapped all gods except one so that he could claim back all political power. By only having one god, the pharoah became the direct link between deity and people and the priests were relegated.

Akhenaten's previous behaviour would seem to suggest this. In a previous attempt to grab power and rewrite history, he had every record of his father's rule destroyed whenever he came across it.

True enough , but it would seem this was a great risk to personal life. For a short time it united Upper and Lower Egypt, which seemed to be the political goal involved.

The battle indeed was between the Kings and the Priests, but we must remember these Kings were thought of as living Gods, so this guy was taking one almighty leap to suggest that he in fact was not God, but his subserviant. So to pass it off as a political ploy seems to diminish the commitmnet to me. The man was laying his life and the lives of his entire family n the line. Remember he even changed his name to Arten ( Akenarten). But again this was not uncommon. A Pharoah's name seems to be more of a description than as a name as we understand it today.

Is it beyond the realm of reason that it was in fact a leap of Faith. If it had succeeded I am sure it would have been as impressive as any beginnings of modern religions. However as usual the Victors write the History books.

The removal of names was a common concept at this time, any one found guilty of treason had all mention of their name removed from everything. I would suggest this was more as a show of ulitmate power than anything else.

Ancient Egypt , now there was some awsome conspiracy thories there.

posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 04:49 PM
I have never heard of Christian Kaballah either. I've heard of hermetic kaballah which is what Madonna and all those other burn outs searching for something meaningful in their lives pretend to follow...I'm intrigued. Also, Masonic Light, I appreciate your wealth of knowlegde, but come on, Keter to Malkuth via whatever does not translate to any Christian teaching in this world or the next. Could you please elaborate because gold and sun equals the Son of God seems a bit flakey to me.

posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 05:55 PM
I have found Psalm 104 and the Great Hymn to the Arten upon which it is believed the Psalm is derived.

I'm sorry for the cut and paste but i believe its important to view them both side by side to appreciate the comparison.

The Great Hymn to the Arten

Thou appearest beautifully on the horizon of heaven,
Thou living Aton, the beginning of life!
When thou art risen on the eastern horizon,
Thou hast filled every land with thy beauty.
Thou art gracious, great, glistening, and high over every land;
Thy rays encompass the lands to the limit of all that thou hast made:
As thou art Re, thou reachest to the end of them;
(Thou) subduest them (for) thy beloved son.
Though thou art far away, thy rays are on earth;
Though thou art in their faces, no one knows thy going.

When thou settest in the western horizon,
The land is in darkness, in the manner of death.
They sleep in a room, with heads wrapped up,
Nor sees one eye the other.
All their goods which are under their heads might be stolen,
(But) they would not perceive (it).
Every lion is come forth from his den;
All creeping things, they sting.
Darkness is a shroud, and the earth is in stillness,
For he who made them rests in his horizon.

At daybreak, when thou arisest on the horizon,
When thou shinest as the Aton by day,
Thou drivest away the darkness and givest thy rays.
The Two Lands are in festivity every day,
Awake and standing upon (their) feet,
For thou hast raised them up.
Washing their bodies, taking (their) clothing,
Their arms are (raised) in praise at thy appearance.
All the world, they do their work.

All beasts are content with their pasturage;
Trees and plants are flourishing.
The birds which fly from their nests,
Their wings are (stretched out) in praise to thy ka.
All beasts spring upon (their) feeet.
Whatever flies and alights,
They live when thou hast risen (for) them.
The ships are sailing north and south as well,
For every way is open at thy appearance.
The fish in the river dart before thy face;
Thy rays are in the midst of the great green sea.

Creator of seed in women,
Thou who makest fluid into man,
Who maintainest the son in the womb of his mother,
Who soothest him with that which stills his weeping,
Thou nurse (even) in the womb,
Who givest breath to sustain all that he has made!
When he descends from the womb to breathe
On the day when he is born,
Thou openest his mouth completely,
Thou suppliest his necessities.
When the chick in the egg speaks within the shell,
Thou givest him breath within it to maintain him.
When thou hast made him his fulfillment within the egg, to break it,
He comes forth from the egg to speak at his completed (time);
He walks upon his legs when he comes forth from it.

How manifold it is, what thou hast made!
They are hidden from the face (of man).
O sole god, like whom there is no other!
Thou didst create the world according to thy desire,
Whilst thou wert alone: All men, cattle, and wild beasts,
Whatever is on earth, going upon (its) feet,
And what is on high, flying with its wings.

The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt,
Thou settest every man in his place,
Thou suppliest their necessities:
Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned.
Their tongues are separate in speech,
And their natures as well;
Their skins are distinguished,
As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples.
Thou makest a Nile in the underworld,
Thou bringest forth as thou desirest
To maintain the people (of Egypt)
According as thou madest them for thyself,
The lord of all of them, wearying (himself) with them,
The lord of every land, rising for them,
The Aton of the day, great of majesty.

All distant foreign countries, thou makest their life (also),
For thou hast set a Nile in heaven,
That it may descend for them and make waves upon the mountains,
Like the great green sea,
To water their fields in their towns.
How effective they are, thy plans, O lord of eternity!
The Nile in heaven, it is for the foreign peoples
And for the beasts of every desert that go upon (their) feet;
(While the true) Nile comes from the underworld for Egypt.

Thy rays suckle every meadow.
When thou risest, they live, they grow for thee.
Thou makest the seasons in order to rear all that thou hast made,
The winter to cool them,
And the heat that they may taste thee.
Thou hast made the distant sky in order to rise therein,
In order to see all that thou dost make.
Whilst thou wert alone,
Rising in thy form as the living Aton,
Appearing, shining, withdrawing or aproaching,
Thou madest millions of forms of thyself alone.
Cities, towns, fields, road, and river --
Every eye beholds thee over against them,
For thou art the Aton of the day over the earth....

Thou are in my heart,
And there is no other that knows thee
Save thy son Nefer-kheperu-Re Wa-en-Re,
For thou hast made him well-versed in thy plans and in thy strength.

The world came into being by thy hand,
According as thou hast made them.
When thou hast risen they live,
When thou settest they die.
Thou art lifetime thy own self,
For one lives (only) through thee.
Eyes are (fixed) on beauty until thou settest.
All work is laid aside when thou settest in the west.
(But) when (thou) risest (again),
[Everything is] made to flourish for the king,...
Since thou didst found the earth
And raise them up for thy son,
Who came forth from thy body: the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, ... Ak-en-Aton, ... and the Chief Wife of the King ... Nefert-iti, living and youthful forever and ever.

Psalm 104

Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; hou art clothed with honour and majesty.
Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Who laid the foundation of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.

They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.

By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.

He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works.

He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

The trees of the Lord are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;

Where the birds make their nests: as for the stork, the fir trees are her house.

The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies.

He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth.

The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God.

The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens.

Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening.

O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.

There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.

These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

That thou givest them they gather: that openest thine hand, they are filled with good.

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

The glory of the Lord shall endure for ever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works.

He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills, and they smoke.

I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.

My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the Lord.

Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked by no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord.

Interesting don't you think? The similarities are there and some very eminent scholars believe that Psalm 104 is in fact taken from the Great Hymn. Perhaps an indication that there is a link between the Heretic King and the genesis of the Jewish/Christian religion.
I find them both quite beautiful pieces of work.

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Janus]

posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 05:56 PM
Thank God we have someone like "Masonic Light" on ATS - we need someone like this who knows what he is talking about! A Voice of Reason in the Wilderness!

posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 02:00 AM

Originally posted by nimrods son
I have never heard of Christian Kaballah either. I've heard of hermetic kaballah which is what Madonna and all those other burn outs searching for something meaningful in their lives pretend to follow

Madonna follows a type of the Jewish Kabalah, not the Hermetic one. In fact, her Kabalah teacher is a rabbi.

The Hermetic Kabalah is, however, closely related to the Christian Kabalah, and at times are identical. Originally, the Hermetic school was purely Christian, although this begin to change in the late 19th century, partially through the efforts of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. The Golden Dawn was a fraternal organization similar to Freemasonry in many respects, whose purpose was to study and teach the Kabalah. However, unlike their Rosicrucian forebears, the Golden Dawn did not require its candidates for initiation to be Christians (the original founders of the GD were Freemasons, and they adopted the idea of nonsectarianism from Masonry).

In this circumstance, the Hermetic Kabalah began to be adopted by non-Christians for the first time, and in general, the Order's theological teachings were largely pantheistic. Several of the Golden Dawn's most important Adepts were non-Christians: Yeats was a pantheist who was interested in mystical Hinduism, Allen Bennet became a Buddhist monk, and Aleister Crowley founded a new pantheist religion based on Egyptian mythology. Nevertheless, other leading members of the Golden Dawn were Christians, including Alergnon Blackwood and A.E. Waite.

Also, Masonic Light, I appreciate your wealth of knowlegde, but come on, Keter to Malkuth via whatever does not translate to any Christian teaching in this world or the next. Could you please elaborate because gold and sun equals the Son of God seems a bit flakey to me.

This refers to esoteric symbolism; instead of being "flaky", gold and the Sun were the symbols used by Plato and Aristotle to refer to the Logos, so it was only natural for this symbolism to drift into both the Kabalah and Christianity. In the Kabalah, Kether represents the Godhead, while Malkuth represents the material world. They are united on the Tree of Life by the sephira called Tiphareth, which literally means "Beauty" in Hebrew. This sephira represents Plato's Logos, the Word Made Flesh. And, as mentioned, the Apostle John uses Plato's "Logos" several times in his Gospel to describe Christ.

Although not himself a Kabalist in the modern sense of the word, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote of these things with much insight.

posted on Dec, 13 2004 @ 06:41 PM
Masonic Light, you must listen to encyclopedias on disk all night. You are one knowledgable dude. I hate to swell your head too much, but I have to give credit where its due. A lot of you people have astounding knowledge here at ATS.

So have we decided yet if Christianity is incompatilbe with masonry or not?

I view Masonry as not against any religion, simply a higher level in the game. I believe the religions for the multitudes, are where you press start and begin to play at beggining levels. From there you have an opportunity to advance. Some never advance past the basics and some do.

posted on Dec, 13 2004 @ 10:35 PM
well I think Masonic Light is pretty cute too.

posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 05:10 PM
Originally before Akhenaten, Egyptians worshiped the sun god Amen-Ra along with other gods too. I find the statement that Akenaten changed his religious beliefs for polictical reasons interesting, but dont by it. Sigmund Freud wrote an interesting book called "Moses and monotheism" where he puts forth the argument that Moses and Akhenaten could be one in the same person. Which is an interesting conspiracy to say the least and is also a subject in a book called Moses and Akhenaten written by Ahmed Osman, which is a more recent and easier theory to read.

Mostly I want people to understand that the Worship of the Aten is and was by no means the worship of the sun god Amen-Ra. Curious also is the fact that christians use the word Amen to conclude their prayers to the "Sun of god, of Son of God"!!!!

Also I think it was the other way around, in that Akhenaten did not desecrate nor get rid of the previouse religion of his father (The Amen) since he only held office per say for a short time, and there were still large parts of the population that did still worship Amen-Ra. Soon after his dissaperence his town in Amarna was desecrated and all traces (mostly all) of the Aten religion where destroyed.

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