Christianity and Freemasonry

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "overwhelming message from these ancient belief systems seems to be that salvation is through oneself and whereas Jesus teaches salvation through him".

Well is it Jesus that said this? Are you sure? Could it possibly be the Priesthood that said that Jesus said this much later on in order to have more control over the Laity?

Here - let me quote Jesus: "The Law is in Every Living Thing. You find it written in the grass, in the trees, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea, but seek it chiefly in YOURSELVES. If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is INSIDE of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to KNOW YOURSELVES, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the Sons of the Living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

-The Gospel of Thomas

Nice quote on wisdom, but remember we're talking about salvation here:

John 3:16 it is Jesus who says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

The word of our Lord.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
John 3:16 - "For God so loved... Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed... The word of our Lord.

What happens if I believe God is our creator, but think Jesus was the head of a religous cult taking advantage of good teachings and the vunerability of a religions followers to gain a better social standing and a better job than a carpenter? hyperthetically

Would I only be halve condemned

Originally posted by nimrods son
since the teachings and rituals of freemasonry are based on ancient mystery religions such as Zoroastrianism(sp?), Jewish Kaballah, Egyptian Deity worship (isis, osiris, horus trinty etc) and since the overwhelming message from these ancient belief systems seems to be that salvation is through oneself and whereas Jesus teaches salvation through him then I would have to say put me down for a no.

if you are initiated in the United States, Canada or Europe , your teachings will be based upon th KJV of the Bible.

If you have any facts that support your position it would be nice if you could furnish them . Remember , FACTS.

Originally posted by Bondi
What happens if I believe God is our creator, but think Jesus was the head of a religous cult taking advantage of good teachings and the vunerability of a religions followers to gain a better social standing and a better job than a carpenter? hyperthetically

Would I only be halve condemned

Answers could include 2 Timothy 2:10: Therefore I endure everthing for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Here is a trustworthy saying: "If we died with him, we will also live with him; If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us"

and my fav. book -

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they have done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Not my words, but hopefully answered your question. I trust the judgement would be very harsh since we sin by nature almost daily. Jesus states through him these sins can be forgiven. I would like to know what you think though.

Originally posted by saint4God
Answers could include 2 Timothy 2:10: Therefore I ...

Revelation 20:11 "And I ...

Sorry hope I am not being stupid here but who is "I" a bloke, women, child, prophet, deciple who is it saying these things.

Not my words,

Why not use your own words, many a critic would claim people quote scripture cause they don't know the answer. Or at least write the scripture in your interpretation of it so i know the meaning you are trying to put across.

Have to admit I have never really seen the point of quoting scripture, always thought the meanings were developed personally, and each would find different meanings in every passage. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong though.

Jesus states through him these sins can be forgiven. I would like to know what you think though.

I suppose what I do not understand is that surely it is the action of a being that should determine the entrance to "heaven" and not their belief. Sounds funny, what I mean is, if I live my life every day without sinning but do not believe in Christ, I take it I wouldn't make it through the gates, but if I live my life taking things for granted but as a believer, I can get in to the after life due to my sins being forgiven through Jesus and my believe in him.

I have been called a heathen, a satanist and all sorts by supposed "Christians" because I choose not to follow their faith. I live a lot more Christian life than they do. I thought the good book states to love thy neighbour, not pick and choose.

Maybe I see things a little simplisticly, but I'd rather get the simple right first than worry about the complicated and get nothing right.

I will not find my creator in your book, but I will find ways to meet him by what it teaches in the way to live my life through the fables it tells, and that goes for any religous book on the shelf.

Please don't think I mean anything detrimental to the bible, at the end we will live our lives in the same manner, I just wont kneel infront of anything and call it god, as the ten commandments asks.

On that point you may be able to answer a question for me, I tried asking my Religous Ed teacher when I was at school but it just got me suspended, very christian and forgiving .

How can a Christian go into a church to pray when there is a statue of the crucifix and/or mary (not sure if that would still be a christian church with mary in it?) when it says you can't make any image of what is heaven on earth, which is where they both are i would have to presume,

and you cannot worship any idol other than god, which jesus is not on his own, he is the son of god and only when the trinity is united do they form god (again i think that's right) therefore no one know's what god looks like but yet people pray to the cross, crucifix and the many man made symbolisms of god.

And if you wouldn't mind, could you answer without the scripture

And once i know who I is I'll go back to the question you asked me.

Post duplicated. Submitted once, but displayed twice

[edit on 9/12/2004 by Bondi]

Sorry hope I am not being stupid here but who is "I" a bloke, women, child, prophet, deciple who is it saying these things.

well the Revelations one the I is St. John the Evangelist

Originally posted by Bondi
Sorry hope I am not being stupid here but who is "I" a bloke, women, child, prophet, deciple

who is it saying these things.

It's a good question, not stupid at all. Disciple and prophet John, mentioned in the opening of the chapter.

Originally posted by Bondi
Why not use your own words, many a critic would claim people quote scripture cause they don't know the answer. Or at least write the scripture in your interpretation of it so i know the meaning you are trying to put across.

Have to admit I have never really seen the point of quoting scripture, always thought the meanings were developed personally, and each would find different meanings in every passage. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong though.

Excellent point. I quoted it because it seemed direct and was thinking my own words were not sufficient. I'd be honored to give my viewpoint on what it means. Basically Jesus died so that we could confess our sins to be saved from judgement, redeemed of sin. Those who do not take the 'Jesus option' are subject to judgement of all deeds. I understand this judgement to be very severe, showing the times where we rejected - God (and his son), the truth and doing the right thing. As a nature we're selfish, uncaring, and ungiving.

Originally posted by Bondi
I suppose what I do not understand is that surely it is the action of a being that should determine the entrance to "heaven" and not their belief. Sounds funny, what I mean is, if I live my life every day without sinning but do not believe in Christ, I take it I wouldn't make it through the gates, but if I live my life taking things for granted but as a believer, I can get in to the after life due to my sins being forgiven through Jesus and my believe in him.

Everybody sins, so the first step is recognizing that. I sin, monks, pastors, priests, all people sin. If you've had an ill thought about someone or lusted for something, that counts. I don't know if you'd make it through the gates, God is the judge and NOBODY should be judging you. They don't know your heart and have no right to 'play God'.

Originally posted by Bondi
I have been called a heathen, a satanist and all sorts by supposed "Christians" because I choose not to follow their faith.

I appreciate your use of quotes. It makes me doubt their faith as well with those labels. Sorry to hear there are those misrepresenting.

Originally posted by Bondi
I live a lot more Christian life than they do. I thought the good book states to love thy neighbour, not pick and choose.

You probably do, and it does. Getting that concept is the hardest part as you've illustrated by those other "Christians".

Originally posted by Bondi
Maybe I see things a little simplisticly, but I'd rather get the simple right first than worry about the complicated and get nothing right.

Very valid point. You can always talk to God direct and ask for help in finding truth.

Originally posted by Bondi
I will not find my creator in your book, but I will find ways to meet him by what it teaches in the way to live my life through the fables it tells, and that goes for any religous book on the shelf.

Please don't think I mean anything detrimental to the bible, at the end we will live our lives in the same manner, I just wont kneel infront of anything and call it god, as the ten commandments asks.

On that point you may be able to answer a question for me, I tried asking my Religous Ed teacher when I was at school but it just got me suspended, very christian and forgiving

.

Crap! What kind of school is that? How ridiculous to ask a question and get suspended? I'm interested on this topic if you'd like to expand.

Originally posted by Bondi
How can a Christian go into a church to pray when there is a statue of the crucifix and/or mary (not sure if that would still be a christian church with mary in it?) when it says you can't make any image of what is heaven on earth, which is where they both are i would have to presume,

In Exodus and Leviticus it tells you not to worship idols. Indeed they should not be worshiped. They're set as reminders, but please don't pray to a statue. Other things are idols too like money, cars, houses, etc. when you love them and/or replace them as your 'god'.

Originally posted by Bondi
and you cannot worship any idol other than god, which jesus is not on his own, he is the son of god and only when the trinity is united do they form god (again i think that's right) therefore no one know's what god looks like but yet people pray to the cross, crucifix and the many man made symbolisms of god.

You're right, this should not be happening. Hypocrisy is a Christian sin as well. I do wear crosses but only to open conversations.

Originally posted by Bondi
And if you wouldn't mind, could you answer without the scripture

Sure, sorry I over-used it.

Originally posted by Bondi
And once i know who I is I'll go back to the question you asked me.

Sounds good, I'm interested of your impressions of John's Revelation. Seriously enjoyed the dialogue because your questions are well thought out and honestly seem to care about what's right. It sounds to me like you're on track, my advice would be to continue to grow. I have the challenge to do the same. Always open for Q & A and exchange.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by saint4God]

Freemasonry does not teach a man that he may gain Salvation through living a good life - it states that a man may humbly hope for Salvation and that's an entirely different scenario altogether. There is no promise of eternal afterlife if you're a good boy. You are given the option to choose what you want to do and it is hoped that you will live a moral life because that is to the benefit of all mankind. If the guy upstairs wants to reward you He will or He won't, but it's His decision at the end of the day. It is down to you to do what you think is right in the way which you live your life on Earth though.

And then we get to the subject of doing good deeds for reward. Isn't that really doing something for yourself rather than for God or your fellow man? Freemasonry certainly didn't teach me that either.

There is absolutely no promise of Salvation in Freemasonry, merely that humble Hope (which is a necessity of life). Freemasonry does not contain the arrogance to offer something which it has no authority over.


[edit on 9-12-2004 by Leveller]

I'm not a mason and didn't mean to speak for anything other than what's written and my understanding thereof. My suggestion is to read the book itself. I agree that deeds alone will not buy you into Heaven.

Leveller, as far as 'arrogance' goes, I subject myself to God and do as he says in John 3:16. This makes me arrogant? Is his words here not a promise? Clarify please.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by saint4God]

Originally posted by nimrods son
since the teachings and rituals of freemasonry are based on ancient mystery religions such as Zoroastrianism(sp?)

Zoroastrianism is not a "mystery religion" any more than Christianity is. Freemasonry is not "based on" either one.

, Jewish Kaballah,

The Kabalah is a form of Neo-Platonism, which modern Christianity is also deeply indebted (try reading Aquinas and Augustine).

Egyptian Deity worship

Needless to say, there is no "Egyptian deity worship" in Freemasonry.

Originally posted by saint4God


Leveller, as far as 'arrogance' goes, I subject myself to God and do as he says in John 3:16. This makes me arrogant? Is his words here not a promise? Clarify please.

Where do I call you arrogant? Where do I infer that you are arrogant?
I believe I stated that Freemasonry would be arrogant if it claimed to offer Salvation.

You quote a passage from a book of religion. Freemasonry is not a religion. There is no comparison.

Originally posted by Leveller
Where do I call you arrogant? Where do I infer that you are arrogant?
I believe I stated that Freemasonry would be arrogant if it claimed to offer Salvation.

I misunderstood, I apologize. Thought you saying in Freemasonry, members don't believe there is 'salvation' per say, just the hope of being accepted into Heaven and therefore to say salvation could be granted would be arrogant. Not saying you were calling me arrogant, but that I was arrogant in belief because I feel salvation could be granted. Sorry I'm got tangled in semantics, am I making any sense?

Second question though, could you address?
"...I subject myself to God and do as he says in John 3:16. Is his words here not a promise?"

Originally posted by Leveller
You quote a passage from a book of religion. Freemasonry is not a religion. There is no comparison.

I agree here.

Freemasonry is based on Jewish Kaballa? I'd like to hear more from someone who practices it. Could someone expand on the similarities/differences to Christianity?

[edit on 9-12-2004 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Not saying you were calling me arrogant, but that I was arrogant in belief because I feel salvation could be granted. Sorry I'm got tangled in semantics, am I making any sense?

Second question though, could you address?
"...I subject myself to God and do as he says in John 3:16. Is his words here not a promise?"

Nope. I wasn't implying that you were arrogant in your belief. It's your belief and I have no right to say that you shouldn't hold it even if I don't believe it myself personally.
And that's the whole point. Freemasonry cannot dictate a belief just as I cannot dictate a belief to you nor you to me.

As for your second question? It's your answer. You can interpret it as you like. Others may interpret it differently.

Freemasonry is based on Jewish Kaballa? I'd like to hear more from someone who practices it. Could someone expand on the similarities/differences to Christianity?

Someones not listening?

Freemasonry is not based upon any religious Faith, it may use excerpts from the Bible and expand them with a splattering of unconfirmed legend. Why? so that a lesson in life is taught, Fidelity anf Brotherly love, through alegory and symbolism.

Freemasonry is a lesson for this life , the Lord thy God has dominion over the next life.

In its ritual and by the use of the bible it does however recognise the human concept of salvation. but it does not divctate what your faith should be.

some people need to stop looking at freemasonry as a religion and think of it more as a college fraternity

Originally posted by saint4God


Freemasonry is based on Jewish Kaballa?

No. The Kabalah is indeed important in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, but is not even mentioned in the York Rite (at least not by name).

Secondly, it is not actually the Jewish Kabalah; the Christian Kabalah has influenced Masonry much more than the Jewish branch of the school, and it is possible that the influence of the Christian Kabalah is derived from the Rosicrucians, which was a fraternity of Christian mystics, composed of physicians and philosophers in 17th century Europe.

Are Freemasonry and Christianity incompatible?

Yes 1111
No 12930

It's a pity the BBC has chosen to have this poll. Surely it will further alienate people away from Masonry and contribute to the misconceptions that there is some hdden (un-Christian) agenda.

I know I'm late back to this thread but id like to clear a few things up. Bill, my findings are based on fact. I have been studying freemasonry for years now and most of my material comes from the scottish rite freemasonry research center in Washington. I have some books by Pike and some by modern day masonic philosophers. I'll give you their URL if you would like to brush up on a few FACTS yourself

Masonic Light...see heres the thing...if Zoroastrianism and freemasonry have nothing in common then whats the deal with all the black and white dualistic nature of man thing that you got goin on in the lodge. If you read Pike he explicitly says that masonry is founded in the teachings of Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda(sp?), Kaballah and Egyptian deity worship. The myth of Hiram eludes to the story of the killing of Osirus. I think you probably already knew that.

Can people please stop quoting the Gospel of Thomas as the words of Christ. This book was found along with a load of other crazy Gnostic crap in Nag Hammidi (sp?). It dates to fourth century AD and spouts that every person has a divine capacity within themselves through their own works, i.e that man can achieve godhead. This is the opposite of what Jesus teaches in his Gospels.

Well in that case I prefer Gnosticism to Christianity - it is more Rational!