God loves this atheist.

a reply to: Rex282

I am glad you got that out of your system.

There is not truth in your statements at all.

Truth is not always pretty. I adhere to a grammatical and contextual belief in Scripture. Produce a Scripture that tells me Hell does not exist and I will agree its that simple. Speculation however is meaningless in a theological conversation.

There is no “place called “hell” and the creator God does not torture nor annihilate a person there.The scriptures do not support that doctrine in the least (Yahoshua is the savor of ALL men).

Matthew 25 is referring to a time after the Great Tribulation as you can gather from Matthew 24:29.

Before I begin explaining this Chapter and ultimately there are two things you should remember one is that Jesus is the one doing the talking and two is 1st century Jewish wedding customs.

Jewish wedding customs:

When a Jewish man in the 1st century wanted to marry a woman he had to go and ask permission from her father. After that, there was a negotiation between the man and the father determining the price he had to pay to make up for the loss of the families daughter. This was known as the bride price. If all went well, and the bride agreed to become betrothed then the man would leave to build a house for her next to his father. This could take quite awhile and only when the man's father said the house was ready could the date be set, and the man would then have permission from his father to go and collect his bride.

The bride and her bridesmaids were to watch and wait. They were to always be prepared for the groom to arrive and take the bride away, as the wedding date was unknown until the groom actually appeared. The groom would try and surprise the bride, and snatch her away while no one was looking. When the bridesmaids realize the bride is gone there would be a great torch lite parade announcing to the whole town the wedding banquet was about to begin. The father of the groom paid for everything.

With all of the above in mind lets breakdown Matthew 25(I will get to the existence of hell eventually but all of this is very important in my opinion):

Before I begin the timing of Matthew 25 comes from Matthew 24:29, and is placed after the great tribulation(if you aren't familiar with this ask).

25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Now lets remember from the wedding customs that the bridesmaids(virgins) lite their torches(lamps) when they realize the bride has been "snatched away."

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps


The bride(Church) has been taken by the groom(the Lord) while the virgins slept, and now they must go meet him with their lamps to find the groom(the Lord). They need oil(the holy spirit) to lite the lamps to find their way. You'll notice they all had oil at the beginning, but only the wise ones kept oil to rekindle their flame.



The virgins represent people who are left behind and survive the Tribulation. Oil represents the Holy Spirit. This is God warning those left behind that they must constantly have oil(the Holy Spirit) on hand to rekindle their flame.where as believers pre-trib are endowed with the the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation(Ephesians 1:13-14). Believers post-trib will be responsible for maintaining a strong connection with the Holy Spirit.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

You'll notice that people will look to others for oil(the Spirit), but they will tell them they only have enough for themselves yet to go to the one who sells oil (The one who supplies the spirit is God).

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

While those who forgot their oil(Holy spirit) were looking for the seller of oil(God) to lite their way; the groom(the Lord) came back for the virgins, and no one else was allowed in.

Jesus then goes to the parable of the Talents, which I have ran out of room so I must continue my response in a second thread please wait to respond.

a reply to: Rex282

The parable of the Talents

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Talents were an old form of greek currency. The are used here to symbolize something of great value to God and that is his Word.

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two

You will notice that those who took his talents and shared them found that they multiplied. The one who ignores his talents from God finds that its value decreases the longer they ignore it. Finally what little value it had left is taken from them.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is again a warning from God to those who are left behind to stay connected with the Holy Spirit, or they will be cast into Skotos(we translate it darkness), but you'll see from the link below that it can mean of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell . Those without the Spirit will be cast into a total absence of the essence of God. Remember Jesus was the one talking here.

Link

This brings us to the end of Matthew 25, and I won't break it down for you because I believe the symbolism there is quite simple if you need me to ask, but I will draw your attention to the last few verses

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If there is no eternal punishment why did Jesus mention it here in verse 46?

All of Matthew 25 is Jesus warning you of the possibility of eternal punishment.

Matthew 10

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yet another verse of in which Jesus himself is speaking of Hell.

It is the Greek word aphesis and means freed from bondage not pardoned of guilt.

Pardon means the action of forgiving or being forgiven for an error or offense. Jesus freed me from the bondage of sin by offering a way for me to receive a pardon for my sin. Being forgiven of my sin doesn't relieve me of the guilt of it. It relieves me of consequence of my sin which is the second death.

You are still in your sin (missing the mark of maturity)

I still sin(everyone does), but my soul has been wiped clean friend. I am seen as righteous by God through Christ, no other way. I have been freed from the bondage of sin to hell not the temptation of sin as a whole.

The Holy Spirit does not “flood a soul” that doesn’t even mean anything it is more religious rhetoric

Oh really?

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

to be be “born anew on high(That is what Yahoshua said) you must be born of water(into the flesh) then DIE in the FLESH and BE DEAD

John 3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So Jesus actually said you had to be born again to see the kingdom of heaven no where does he say you have to die in the flesh to be born of the Spirit.

a reply to: Diderot

"Knowing God and understanding Scripture is far different from religion." Your statement is truly Orwellian. Perhaps you feel that religion is what others believe whereas you have been graced by the Truth.

What I mean by that statement is many people go looking for God, but instead of they lose the message in creating this false image of themselves by "acting Christian-like" rather than understanding what we are, and the message God has delievered us.

a reply to: Rex282

Just like MANY others you are extrapolating and reading into the scriptures what you want it to say.That is intellectually and ethically dishonest and it doesn’t matter how benevolent the sentiment is.

Why dont you show us with Scripture rather the speculation then?

a reply to: Rex282

Just like MANY others you are extrapolating and reading into the scriptures what you want it to say.That is intellectually and ethically dishonest and it doesn’t matter how benevolent the sentiment is.

Why dont you show us with Scripture rather the speculation then?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
.................

Truth is not always pretty. I adhere to a grammatical and contextual belief in Scripture. Produce a Scripture that tells me Hell does not exist and I will agree its that simple. Speculation however is meaningless in a theological conversation.

Here are just a few ... there are MANY more:

1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Philp 2:9 God also has highly exalted him, and given him a NAME (Yahoshua... the creator God is salvation) which is above every name: That at the name of Yahoshua EVERY knee will bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue WILL confess that Yahoshua The Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Timothy 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Savior;Who WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL WILL come to repentance."

Titus 2:11 The grace of God that brings salvation has manifested to ALL MEN."

1 John 4:14 We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior [Yahoshua] of the WORLD."

1 John 2:2.he [Yahoshua] "is" the sacrifice for our sins, and NOT for ours only but ALSO for the WHOLE world.

1 Tim. 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and BELIEVE not, I judge him NOT: for I came NOT TO JUDGE the world, but to SAVE the world.

The fact is if it takes “scriptures” for you to “know” that Yahoshua is the savor of ALL creation (including ALL of mankind) you will never know.Common reason is if Yahoshua is the Son of the creator God his “name” explains everything.You either know the name or you don’t fortunately “knowing” is not a prerequisite(neither is belief) for receiving deliverance/salvation.

a reply to: Rex282

1Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Savior;Who WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I think the old English in the KJV has confused you a bit as to the meaning of this verse:

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This is the NASB you can compare as many translations as you like, but the verse says that God desires all men to be saved, not that all will be saved. In fact the Bible says quite the opposite:
Matthew 7

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

This is once again a verse that mentions hell from the lips of jesus

a reply to: Rex282

The fact is if it takes “scriptures” for you to “know” that Yahoshua is the savor of ALL creation (including ALL of mankind) you will never know.Common reason is if Yahoshua is the Son of the creator God his “name” explains everything.You either know the name or you don’t fortunately “knowing” is not a prerequisite(neither is belief) for receiving deliverance/salvation.

The fact is we were not talking about Jesus being the savior of all things, but the existence of hell, so lets not pretend that I don't know who Christ is. I agree that Jesus died for everyones sins, but you must allow him to pay the "bride price" for you. (refer to 1st century jewish wedding customs)

So you have no response to the verses mentioning hell or are you just still going to make stuff up because the truth offends you?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And THESE shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This scripture is talking of “THESE” that “believe” they know the creator God and his Son Yahoshua.They are the ones saying “Lord” we didn’t see you..etc etc…heathens do not call the creator God “Lord”they are the “least of theses” that Yahoshua identifies witha nd counts as himself..Yahoshua says it is the “these” Lord believers that did not do unto the least of these that will go into eternal pry(fire).

Eternal is translated from aion (eon) or aionios which means an age/world/realm NOT infinite time.Punishment is the word kolasis which means “correction”. Eternal “fire” is not the eternal (time) punishment of hell.Hades is one of the words translated hell.It means the grave ..the realm of death and the realm of imperception.

This is the 1st age(realm/world) .. the material realm everyone lives in.The 2nd age(the next age) is the realm of death.Everyone and everything in the material realm MUST die and enter into it.Then is the resurrection from the realm of death.Some (few) will enter into the realm of the Kingdom of the creator God which is their 3rd age.The many will enter into the lake of fire(the eternal fire) the 2nd death to be “purged/cleansed” of their “imperception…..their Belief System religion …..then enter into the Kingdom of the creator God realm of LIFE.

a reply to: Rex282

Eternal is translated from aion (eon) or aionios which means an age/world/realm NOT infinite time.

Right words wrong definitions. First the word used by the writers in verse 46 is aionios which can mean four things:

without beginning and end, that which always has been and always
will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting

Three out of four definitions most definitely mean a period absent of time not a period of infinite time. None of these can be translated age. The word aionios is used a total of 71 times in the Bible, 67 of these are translated either eternal or everlasting.

www.biblestudytools.com...


Now you are correct in that the origins of the word aionios are aion, and you are also correct that it can possibly mean an age/time period, but it has three possible definitions:

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

Of the 128 times this word is used its translated: age 2 ever 71(which means eternity every time that I have seen it used) eternal 2 for ever 1 evermore 4 world 38 never 6

You have to pay attention to context in order to know which meaning, and based on the number of times aion is used referencing again a period absent of time far out ways age which means the best definition of the word is still eternity.

The meaning of Aion really doesn't matter when interpreting matt 25:46 though because the word used is aionios and it without a doubt means eternity(remember this is an absence of time not infinite amounts of it).

www.biblestudytools.com...

Punishment is the word kolasis which means “correction”.

Once again right word wrong definition. You cannot just look at the possible definitions and choose the one you want. You have to interpret the bible using context...

The definition of Kolasis is correction, punishment, penalty. It is used only two times. Once it is translated punishment the other it is translated torment. You are being really dishonest with your information and it makes me question your motives.

This is the 1st age(realm/world) .. the material realm everyone lives in.The 2nd age(the next age) is the realm of death.Everyone and everything in the material realm MUST die and enter into it.Then is the resurrection from the realm of death.Some (few) will enter into the realm of the Kingdom of the creator God which is their 3rd age.The many will enter into the lake of fire(the eternal fire) the 2nd death to be “purged/cleansed” of their “imperception…..their Belief System religion …..then enter into the Kingdom of the creator God realm of LIFE

None of this is rooted in Scripture its just one of the worst attempts at translation I have ever seen although I am pretty sure you are purposely being misleading so as to argue you illogical side of this debate. Hell is mentioned in the Bible. If the Bible is True, then Hell is a truth.

originally posted by: Diderot

I am sure, though, that any true God is a perfect God.
This God would be perfect in grace, compassion, and love.
I would be a child of this Father, your Father.

If God was perfect in these traits, He would also have to have perfect wrath, indifference, and Hate too right? God cannot be unbalanced, and in order for love to even exist there must also be hate in order to show the contrast. God works good or evil to people based on how the people handle His "words". Most people hate His Bible and could not care less.

"Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. "

a reply to: KJVBible

"If God was perfect in these traits, He would also have to have perfect wrath, indifference, and Hate too right? God cannot be unbalanced, and in order for love to even exist there must also be hate in order to show the contrast. God works good or evil to people based on how the people handle His "words". Most people hate His Bible and could not care less."

I am afraid that I disagree. A God that tempers his divine love with perfect hatred and wrath is hardly a God of perfection.
If you seek a balance in your God between virtue and evil, then perhaps you should pray to Zoroaster, or even the
gods of Olympus. A perfect god would transcend and defeat evil with love and compassion. Wrath and hatred are stains upon the soul.

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: KJVBible

"If God was perfect in these traits, He would also have to have perfect wrath, indifference, and Hate too right? God cannot be unbalanced, and in order for love to even exist there must also be hate in order to show the contrast. God works good or evil to people based on how the people handle His "words". Most people hate His Bible and could not care less."

I am afraid that I disagree. A God that tempers his divine love with perfect hatred and wrath is hardly a God of perfection.
If you seek a balance in your God between virtue and evil, then perhaps you should pray to Zoroaster, or even the
gods of Olympus. A perfect god would transcend and defeat evil with love and compassion. Wrath and hatred are stains upon the soul.

Thank you for being a voice of reason and denying ignorance.

The "philosophical dualism of religious rhetoric is only a false construct to fit an agenda.If the creator God was truly dualistic in nature the creation could not exist.Their own "laws" would exempt them from perfection because the creator God cannot be both good and evil (or any opposites) simultaneously.The religious carnal mind can only rectify those contradictions of Truth with religious doctrines that are not based in reason.

The religious carnal mind justify's "their Gods" action based on their belief that THEY are also exempt from these laws.The say out of one side of their mouth they are evil then believe they have become exempt by an action that does nothing to exempt.In effect their No's are Yes and Yeses are No's which is a perfect fit for their "dualism".They have in effect made themselves God and are completely blind to the fact.

This thread is a perfect example.Because some "believe" you are a heathen(non believer) and are not "saved" you can "know" nothing of the Truth YET you have more evidence of Truth in every post you make then all of them together.That is the blindness of religion -religion that you are VERY fortunate to not "believe".ALL things that are hidden WILL be "known" however they will NEVER be known by belief.That fact is what the religious carnal mind can NOT know and why they will defend their faith to the death even though it completely lacks reason.

I know you know that is what you are up against.The only thing that you can do is speak the Truth you know because KNOWING the Truth is the ONLY thing that can make some one free from bondage(forgiven).The beauty of some of the things you are saying are exactly what Yahoshua said YET the religious that say they "believe" in him can NOT hear it.That is exactly what happened between Yahoshua and the pharisees.History repeats with different players.Thank GOD it won't always be like that...forgive them because they do NOT "know" what they are doing.

a reply to: Rex282

Hello Rex,

"This thread is a perfect example. Because some "believe" you are a heathen (non believer) and are not "saved" you can "know" nothing of the Truth YET you have more evidence of Truth in every post you make then all of them together."

A heathen is one who is lost in the wilderness. But sometimes we do not wish to be found.

If I should find myself on the shore of Thoreau's Walden Pond, please do not call me back,

for I see the wisdom and majesty of this world that I share.

a reply to: Rex282

The religious carnal mind justify's "their Gods" action based on their belief that THEY are also exempt from these laws.The say out of one side of their mouth they are evil then believe they have become exempt by an action that does nothing to exempt.In effect their No's are Yes and Yeses are No's which is a perfect fit for their "dualism".They have in effect made themselves God and are completely blind to the fact.

You apparently have a misunderstanding of the Law and its purpose. Christians are not exempt from the Law. Jesus was meant to fulfill the Law not us. The Law was given to us so that we could understand our inability to fulfill it. The meaning of the word metanoeo(repent) means to think differently. The Law gives us the ability to repent because it blesses us with the understanding that only through Christ can the Law be fulfilled for us.

ALL things that are hidden WILL be "known" however they will NEVER be known by belief.That fact is what the religious carnal mind can NOT know and why they will defend their faith to the death even though it completely lacks reason.

You make these completely weightless statements and then call them TRUTH with no logical reasoning at all....You try and act like you listen to what Jesus says, and yet you say things that go completely against his words. What exactly is your world view, and what makes you so sure it is TRUE?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I have a proposition.

Step one: Lets just reject everything you claim about God, as outright fantasy. Same with all other God's.
Step two: Decide via self determination to seek only truth using Critical Thinking.
Step three: If the path of truth leads to your God, re-evaluate your story as required as a necessity of truth. Including using empirical evidences proving scriptural infallibility, as truth does not fear investigation.

If you are truly one with the truth, and are telling us truth, and your book is truth, what do you have to fear by encouraging this exercise? You should be excited at said proposition. Truth should become self apparent to anyone following that guideline, no?

That way offers a fresh, blank, slate.

After all if one sought out only truth.. would not all roads, through all methods, lead to the man called Jesus, whom your belief system claims is truth incarnate? Would it not be inevitable? More-so, would it be an impossibility to NOT to arrive at that conclusion using the above methodology?

If not, why not? Does like not attract like? Does seeking truth, using methodologies to determine truth, not attract truth? Does the law of attraction for truth seekers, somehow not apply to Jesus?

Is God limited to drawing people to himself, using his alleged followers, and a few thousand pages in a Book?

Yes, it's a Catch-22 on purpose.