NATO General: Kiev already lost the battle in Ukraine

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

All I`m saying, Russia is actually putting some kind of stop the crap US/EU have been pulling.

And I take it that you think Russia is the innocent ones in this, because it seems you totally overlook the fact that Ukraine was heading in the direction of joining the EU until this...

Russian President Vladimir Putin has tirelessly tried to convince Ukraine to join Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and other former Soviet nations in a trade bloc that will rival the EU.

Russia, Ukraine’s main source of energy, loans, and trade, wants to dissuade its geographical partner from making a ‘suicidal’ move towards Europe and sacrifice the option of joining Putin’s customs union.

Ukraine, resource-rich and in need of a serious IMF loan, sees more economic opportunity in Europe, and hopes to act as a ‘bridge’ between Russia and the EU, President Viktor Yanukovich, 61, has said.

Russia has made it clear there will be no ‘bridge’ if Ukraine steps West; they will give up their ‘exclusive relationship’ with Russia, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Friday.

and then we have this...

“If there is no deal in Nov 2013, Putin will have won a resounding psychological victory – most everyone in the EU would want to prevent that, and Yanukovych counts on it,” Trenin said.

“Russia has set sights on the 2015 elections in Ukraine and intends to help a pro-Russian leader to power. Ironically, however, the more pressure Russia applies on Ukraine, the less likely it will succeed. Even more ironically, this will be in Russia’s own best interest – the last thing it should want is Ukraine in the Customs Union,” Trenin said.

rt.com...

What's so amazing is Russia has been doing exactly what you say the US and EU have been doing, but because it's Russia it is okay...amazing.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: DJW001

All I`m saying, Russia is actually putting some kind of stop the crap US/EU have been pulling.

But the EU and US have no right to tell other countries what they can and cannot do!

Are you finally waking up...?

When have I ever supported criminal activities on the part of a government? George W. Bush should be tried for war crimes in Iraq, and V.V. Putin for war crimes in Chechniya and, now, Ukraine. Are you going to wake up at last or are you going to continue to make excuses for the new Stalin?

And what about what the US/EU support for a government who`s shelling civilians ?

Ah wait, that was Putin doing it, now wasn`t it...?

But where is your proof for that ?

I already have given a link to a hour and half video of Kiev doing it, and yes it`s all over the news US/EU is supporting them.

So now you all of sudden claim you don`t support those kinds of stuff, come on man, seriously ?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And what about what the US/EU support for a government who`s shelling civilians ?

Are they shelling civilians? Or are they shelling military targets that have deliberately placed near civilians?

Ah wait, that was Putin doing it, now wasn`t it...?

No-one ever claimed that.

But where is your proof for that ?

Why must you keep flogging a strawman?

I already have given a link to a hour and half video of Kiev doing it, and yes it`s all over the news US/EU is supporting them.

How is US/EU "supporting them?" Are there NATO boots on the ground the way there are Russian boots on the ground?

So now you all of sudden claim you don`t support those kinds of stuff, come on man, seriously ?

Admit it: you are not allowed to criticize Putin, that is why you keep evading the question and spewing the party line. You have inadvertently exposed yourself.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

That`s called politics to play both sides to get the best deal.

Russia had offered a way better deal for the Ukraine, but US/EU has not the interest in what`s actually good for the people. If they had, they would have asked for the puppet-government to go talk to the people in Eastern Ukraine instead of making war with them.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And what about what the US/EU support for a government who`s shelling civilians ?

Only where the Russian backed separatists are located, because funny enough it isn't happening where they have left.

Ah wait, that was Putin doing it, now wasn`t it...?

Doing what, backing separatists who terrorized the area they were holding or supplying the weapons for them to do so?

But where is your proof for that ?

Oh you mean something like this...

Alexander Zakharchenko, prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, said the rebels were in the process of receiving some 150 armoured vehicles, including 30 tanks, and 1,200 fighters who he said had spent four months training in Russia.

and even Germany see's it happening...

In a sign of concern at the latest rebel comments, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko agreed in a phone call on Saturday that deliveries of weapons to separatists in Ukraine must stop and a ceasefire must be achieved, a German government spokesman said.

www.reuters.com...

But of course all of this is overlooked because the Russians say they aren't doing anything.

So now you all of sudden claim you don`t support those kinds of stuff, come on man, seriously ?

So care to show me anywhere that I said anything different than what I have said all along...Seriously can you because I know you can't?

But feel free to try and show me...I will wait for your proof.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And what about what the US/EU support for a government who`s shelling civilians ?

Are they shelling civilians? Or are they shelling military targets that have deliberately placed near civilians?

Ah wait, that was Putin doing it, now wasn`t it...?

No-one ever claimed that.

But where is your proof for that ?

Why must you keep flogging a strawman?

I already have given a link to a hour and half video of Kiev doing it, and yes it`s all over the news US/EU is supporting them.

How is US/EU "supporting them?" Are there NATO boots on the ground the way there are Russian boots on the ground?

So now you all of sudden claim you don`t support those kinds of stuff, come on man, seriously ?

Admit it: you are not allowed to criticize Putin, that is why you keep evading the question and spewing the party line. You have inadvertently exposed yourself.

So now you`re in the processes of covering up crimes against humanity...?

It must be a fun place inside your head if you think I`m a Russian shill, LMAO !

I now understand the "whole next level of bull# thing," thanks for explaining it to me guys by making good examples for it...

I`m off now, only so much BS I can handle in a day.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Russia had offered a way better deal for the Ukraine, but US/EU has not the interest in what`s actually good for the people. If they had, they would have asked for the puppet-government to go talk to the people in Eastern Ukraine instead of making war with them.

Poland and Ukraine are roughly the same size and achieved their separation from the Soviet sphere of influence at the same time. Poland aligned with Europe. It now has a GDP of $814 billion with a 2% growth rate. The GDP per capita has gone from under $2,000 during the Communist era to over $20,000 today. Ukraine kept its strong ties to Russia. It has a GDP of $329 billion with little or even negative growth. The GDP per capita has gone from $415 (yes, only four hundred and fifteen dollars!) while it was part of the Soviet Union, to $7,500 today. This is an increase, at least, but it is still not even half of what people in Poland have.

Source.

Given these facts, who do you suppose was really offering Ukraine the better deal?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

So now you`re in the processes of covering up crimes against humanity...?

No; you have failed to prove any of your allegations. The use of human shields is a crime against humanity.

It must be a fun place inside your head if you think I`m a Russian shill, LMAO !

Not a shill: an intelligence officer. At least your English is better than most.

Edit to add: Nah, you need intelligence to be an intelligence officer. You're just a Europhobe who admires "strong leaders" like Putin.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

That`s called politics to play both sides to get the best deal.

But it is only okay when Russia does it...I see now.

Russia had offered a way better deal for the Ukraine, but US/EU has not the interest in what`s actually good for the people. If they had, they would have asked for the puppet-government to go talk to the people in Eastern Ukraine instead of making war with them.

Really, because the deal with the EU would not have changed anything between Ukraine and Russia, so how did Russia who strong armed Ukraine over the deal made it good for the people?

Russia had it's own puppet in there with Yanukovych, but when he tried to make it a better life for Ukraine Putin decided to give the ultimatum and that is a fact. Really the puppet gov't that your refer to was democratically elected by the people of Ukraine, but of course that is another fact that some seem to want to overlook. Also you do know that the parliament of the former president had decided to remove him because of the corruption that surrounded his administration? Again something that get's overlooked.

But of course all of that is overlooked because it is just easier to blame the west than it is to actually look up the facts.

And in case you forgot, it was President Yanukovych's administration that was in power when the shootings of the protesters happened not the so called puppet government.

But of course you knew that right?

Also know the government gave the separatists the chance for a ceasefire and a good deal and they decided to take their chances and said no deal, which btw now they want that deal but of course all of this is overlooked.

a reply to: DJW001

Not a shill: an intelligence officer. At least your English is better than most.

Edit to add: Nah, you need intelligence to be an intelligence officer. You're just a Europhobe who admires "strong leaders" like Putin.

You're a class act mate. Ever considered behaving like an adult?

a reply to: Flatcoat

Rather than call me names, why don't you behave like an adult and respond to the posts that bornagainalien has been ignoring or deflecting from:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Massive German support :



So the EU leaders have just been bought :

My Ph.D. dissertation chairman, who became a high Pentagon official assigned to wind down the Vietnam war, in answer to my question about how Washington gets Europeans to always do what Washington wants replied: “Money, we give them money.” “Foreign aid?” I asked. “No, we give the European political leaders bagfuls of money. They are for sale, We bought them. They report to us.” Perhaps this explains Tony Blair’s $50 million fortune one year out of office.

www.paulcraigroberts.org...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Massive German support :

If you could read German, you would know that most of the signs were protesting Wirtschaft the economy. Everyone was wearing green, so obviously it was a rally organized by the Green Party. I didn't see any support for Russia there.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Massive German support :

If you could read German, you would know that most of the signs were protesting Wirtschaft the economy. Everyone was wearing green, so obviously it was a rally organized by the Green Party. I didn't see any support for Russia there.

And if you can understand German you hear them say "kriegstreiber" = "warmonger" when Merkel is talking.

a reply to: DJW001

If you could read German, you would know that most of the signs were protesting Wirtschaft the economy.

That doesn't matter, because anywhere there is a protest it is going to be called a protest supporting Russia.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And if you can understand German you hear them say "kriegstreiber" = "warmonger" when Merkel is talking.

That's funny because she is one of the main voices calling for a truce and not war, so how is she a warmonger?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And if you can understand German you hear them say "kriegstreiber" = "warmonger" when Merkel is talking.

That's funny because she is one of the main voices calling for a truce and not war, so how is she a warmonger?

Because over in the EU citizens know politicians lie their asses off too.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

All I`m saying, Russia is actually putting some kind of stop the crap US/EU have been pulling.

And I take it that you think Russia is the innocent ones in this, because it seems you totally overlook the fact that Ukraine was heading in the direction of joining the EU until this...

Russian President Vladimir Putin has tirelessly tried to convince Ukraine to join Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and other former Soviet nations in a trade bloc that will rival the EU.

Russia, Ukraine’s main source of energy, loans, and trade, wants to dissuade its geographical partner from making a ‘suicidal’ move towards Europe and sacrifice the option of joining Putin’s customs union.

Ukraine, resource-rich and in need of a serious IMF loan, sees more economic opportunity in Europe, and hopes to act as a ‘bridge’ between Russia and the EU, President Viktor Yanukovich, 61, has said.

Russia has made it clear there will be no ‘bridge’ if Ukraine steps West; they will give up their ‘exclusive relationship’ with Russia, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Friday.

and then we have this...

“If there is no deal in Nov 2013, Putin will have won a resounding psychological victory – most everyone in the EU would want to prevent that, and Yanukovych counts on it,” Trenin said.

“Russia has set sights on the 2015 elections in Ukraine and intends to help a pro-Russian leader to power. Ironically, however, the more pressure Russia applies on Ukraine, the less likely it will succeed. Even more ironically, this will be in Russia’s own best interest – the last thing it should want is Ukraine in the Customs Union,” Trenin said.

rt.com...

What's so amazing is Russia has been doing exactly what you say the US and EU have been doing, but because it's Russia it is okay...amazing.

What you fail to understand is that Russia really are the innocent ones here. The US spent $5 billion of US taxpayer money to overthrow the pro-Russia government in an armed coup. The citizens of Novorussia are fighting for freedom and democracy, and their very lives. The first thing the Kiev junta did when they forced the legitimate government to flee, was to ban the Russian language. This was an announcement that genocide would begin. And it did. The "rebels" have no choice but to fight. The only alternative is death. This entire war is nothing but a direct attack on Russia by the US. NATO keeps adding more member states near Russia and emplacing missile defense on Russia's borders, both things they agreed they would not do. The purpose of missile defense is the ability to shoot down ICBMS in the boost phase, right after launch. This provides for a successful nuclear first strike capability against Russia. Do you really think Russia is going to allow Ukraine and Georgia to become members of NATO so that Russia can be wiped out with a nuclear strike? The US is trying to conquer the entire planet. That is why they have started all the wars in the Middle East ever since the Soviet Union collapsed. They are trying regime change in Russia and China. These two countries will fight back because the alternative is death.

a reply to: Adaluncatif

What you fail to understand is that Russia really are the innocent ones here.

Yes. What's wrong with annexing a neighboring country?

The US spent $5 billion of US taxpayer money to overthrow the pro-Russia government in an armed coup.

No, it spent five billion dollars trying to help Ukraine build stable institutions after having been screwed over by the Soviet Union for decades.

The citizens of Novorussia are fighting for freedom and democracy, and their very lives.

Novorussian democracy:



Incidentally, the official story is now they are fighting for "federalism." Try to keep up.

The first thing the Kiev junta did when they forced the legitimate government to flee, was to ban the Russian language.

The "junta" was the legitimate government; only traitors who had taken bribes from Moscow fled. The Russian language was immediately re-instated.

This was an announcement that genocide would begin.

So... if Russian was re-instated, does that mean the genocide was cancelled?

And it did.

Evidence, please.

The "rebels" have no choice but to fight.

They could negotiate in good faith...

The only alternative is death.

Or surrender.

Why do NATO bases make you so nervous? Everyone knows that carrier groups and nuclear armed subs are America's weapons of choice.