NATO General: Kiev already lost the battle in Ukraine

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

The West has been given support, just like the Russian have, no surprise for me, but the West exaggerated about an invasion.

Not true. "The West" is perfectly justified in characterizing the Russian seizure of Crimea as an "invasion." In fact, official government statements have avoided that characterization to avoid painting themselves and Putin into a corner. Kyiv has been making claims that regular Russian units have been in the field. You will notice that I have generally not given those claims credence in the past. Kyiv is like the boy who cried Russian wolf. However in the past few days the rebel army has suddenly become much more organized, disciplined and well armed, and using fresh tactics. These troops seem to be emanating from a small town on the Russian border. Curious, wouldn't you say?

And like I said several times before (see link), the Kremlin had drawn the line at Ukraine becoming a Western-puppet state...so the West knew it, and still they tried to make the Ukraine their puppet state...

And NATO has drawn the line at Ukraine becoming a Russian puppet state, and yet Russia has continued to try by force of arms.

So who`s responsible for the war, Russia or the West ?

Whoever has been encouraging and now arming the secessionists. The Eastern Ukrainians had the opportunity to participate in elections, but neo-Fascist separatists would not allow them to.

a reply to: DJW001

You`re simply overlooking Russia has told the West it would happen if they started to meddle with the Ukraine!

It all started with West meddling in with the Ukraine, that`s not a fact which can be overlooked while discussing it, same goes for the fact the West had been warned about it.

As long as you refuse to acknowledge those facts, there`s absolutely no way in having a normal discussion with you about it. It simply gives a whole different way at looking at it...I know for whatever reason you want to look at it that way, fine go ahead, but a normal discussion about it can only happen if you acknowledge the facts.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

You are the one ignoring the facts. NATO made no move to admit Ukraine before the Russian invasion, nor had the EU offered Ukraine a path to membership. Putin completely freaked out because Ukraine was willing to trade with Europe on the same terms it traded with Russia. Putin could not tolerate the thought of a truly neutral Ukraine.

a reply to: DJW001

The West was warned about making the Ukraine a Western puppet-state by meddling with it, that`s the fact I talk about. All the facts are there, and have been discussed and presented to you lots of times.

Good luck with finding discussion partners !

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

The decisions and lack of foresight by leaders ends up in common people suffering like in Donbass and Ukraine as a whole.

Powers in Kiev, including Yanukovich, could have OPENLY come to an agreement with Kremlin, EU and NATO...........that

Ukraine would prefer to join the EU over the Customs Union
Ukraine WOULD NEVER join the NATO alliance and remain Non-aligned ALWAYS

This could have solved so many issues and avoided the civil war and resulting suffering of the peoples.

The question then becomes of the trade-off between.............exercising the sovereignty over the long term welfare of the people and country. Ukraine exercised the "free choice" and that resulted in civil war, economic depression, destruction.

This is called total lack of diplomatic acumen and strategic foresight as a result of inflated EGO and in-bred HATRED.

In the meanwhile, suffering of common people continues...........very sad indeed !!

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: DJW001

The West was warned about making the Ukraine a Western puppet-state by meddling with it, that`s the fact I talk about. All the facts are there, and have been discussed and presented to you lots of times.

Good luck with finding discussion partners !

Who warned "the West" and what gives him the right to determine Ukraine's destiny? If you cannot answer that, there is no possibility of you understanding the situation.

a reply to: victor7

Powers in Kiev, including Yanukovich, could have OPENLY come to an agreement with Kremlin, EU and NATO...........that

Ukraine would prefer to join the EU over the Customs Union
Ukraine WOULD NEVER join the NATO alliance and remain Non-aligned ALWAYS

This could have solved so many issues and avoided the civil war and resulting suffering of the peoples.

How would that have prevented Russia from seizing Crimea? How would that have prevented pro-Russian Fascists from burning down police stations and attempting to secede from Ukraine?

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: DJW001

The West was warned about making the Ukraine a Western puppet-state by meddling with it, that`s the fact I talk about. All the facts are there, and have been discussed and presented to you lots of times.

Good luck with finding discussion partners !

Who warned "the West" and what gives him the right to determine Ukraine's destiny? If you cannot answer that, there is no possibility of you understanding the situation.

You have no idea the EU is a dictatorship with no democratic elected leaders which dictate over 90% of its laws. The laws which countries actually can decide for themselves are worthless. And citizens of EU countries are against it in majority. They have to fake numbers to let it look like citizens of EU countries actually support it in majority. Once a member of it, you`re not free anymore...you`re puppet to the whole EU/US system.

Russia has warned about not making Ukraine a puppet-state of the West. If you talk about Ukraine able to determine their own future, they shouldn`t become EU member for sure.

Read up about the EU being some kind of fake democracy, before claiming it will bring them self determination.

NATO nor EU it doesn`t matter, EU is actually even worse.

And the people of Ukraine were only given pro-West puppet choices as next president, so they had no real choice. They voted for the one who said he would end the violence in the East, but they have been fooled. My guess is, he doesn`t even have a majority support in the Ukraine.

And once again, feeling more pro West doesn`t mean the people wanted to be a Western puppet-state, they wanted to be really independent, and which is actually fine with Russia.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

You ranted, but did not answer the question: Who the @%#% is Putin that he can dictate what Ukraine can and cannot do? If a bully tells you to kiss his shoes or he'll beat you up, is it your fault if you lick his shoes or get beat up? No, it's the bully's! Putin is no better now than the street thug he started out as. All he knows how to do is bully people. Ukraine has the right to do what it wants without Russian troops pouring in. The rest of your rant is irrelevant; it doesn't matter what the EU or US is like, it's Putin who has arrogated himself the right to deprive the Ukrainian people of their freedom. That is the issue, that is why Putin must be stopped by any means necessary; if not he will start invading other countries to "save" them from foolishly choosing not to join the Russian Federation.

a reply to: DJW001

That wasn`t a rant, it was just stating facts.

As I have said many times before, and also proved, the citizens of the Ukraine wanted to be independent in majority.

The west is the bully in this situation by making a coup, no matter how much propaganda you throw at it to make it look like different, Russia wans`t behind the overthrow of the government, now were they ?

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: DJW001

That wasn`t a rant, it was just stating facts.

As I have said many times before, and also proved, the citizens of the Ukraine wanted to be independent in majority.

The west is the bully in this situation by making a coup, no matter how much propaganda you throw at it to make it look like different, Russia wans`t behind the overthrow of the government, now were they ?

What universe do you live in? The government fell because the people objected to Russia's puppet over-riding their democratic will. The citizens of Ukraine wish to be independent; Russia will not allow that! That is why they invaded Crimea, and are now backing the Fascists in Donetsk. Putin is afraid to allow Ukraine to do what it will.

Edit to add: You still haven't answered the question. What gives Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin the right to tell other nations what they can or cannot do?

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: DJW001

That wasn`t a rant, it was just stating facts.

As I have said many times before, and also proved, the citizens of the Ukraine wanted to be independent in majority.

The west is the bully in this situation by making a coup, no matter how much propaganda you throw at it to make it look like different, Russia wans`t behind the overthrow of the government, now were they ?

What universe do you live in? The government fell because the people objected to Russia's puppet over-riding their democratic will. The citizens of Ukraine wish to be independent; Russia will not allow that! That is why they invaded Crimea, and are now backing the Fascists in Donetsk. Putin is afraid to allow Ukraine to do what it will.

Edit to add: You still haven't answered the question. What gives Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin the right to tell other nations what they can or cannot do?

The same right the US/EU have...

and I live in a universe where US/EU do disgusting things and naming it "helping other countries."

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

But the EU and US have no right to tell other countries what they can and cannot do! Even in your twisted universe you must be able to see that! What you are saying is that if America can commit crimes, it is okay for Russia to commit crimes!

Edit to add: I'm glad I don't live in your disgusting, bloodthirsty universe.

Born again,no your right Russia wasn't behind the other throw of the last government

Nuland and the US Ukraine envoy were recorded on an unsecured line( clever chaps!) talking about who they wanted in power and the envoy said he would work on it

They backed the fatherland party who progressed from Molotov thugs to killing civilians with a silenced assault rifle brought into the protestor zone by a fatherland member in the boot of his car and filmed

The ousted president was blamed for this and he fled for his life,but the cold reality is he had nothing to do with the killings

Another recording between Estonia and an EU official highlighted the disturbing facts that the last government didn't order the killing but the new one did and there will be no investigations

Crimea deeply disturbed by the far right anti Russians instantly held elections,Russia never invaded Crimea as it had a lease for a base with troops already stationed

The Fatherland party and other far right parties get senior cabinet positions of power in the new Ukraine parliament and then direct their hatred for Russia East of their country

We know the reality from then on and many east Ukrainians have been slaughtered by these thugs who's own leader that mad blonde woman sent to jail for theft and recently out is on record saying she wants to kill all the Russians in the east of her country and every drop an atomic weapon on them

That's it,the father land party and it's supporters are barbaric animals whom the west support but our grandparents and great grandparents would have been fighting during ww2

Also a point worth mentioning is if Russia has realy invaded Ukraine they would have won a long time ago easily

a reply to: DJW001

All I`m saying, Russia is actually putting some kind of stop the crap US/EU have been pulling.

But the EU and US have no right to tell other countries what they can and cannot do!

Are you finally waking up...?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ukraine's been hijacked by a foreign agency. Retreat is what you do when your country has had it's democratically elected government overthrown by an outside power (USA), you retreat to where you can get arms to fight back.

And you have evidence that shows this happened, because it is funny that his own parliament decided to remove him from power, but that seems to be overlooked. And just in case you missed this Putin was and has been an influence in that democratically elected government from his first day, but let's all overlook that because the US is the big bad boogy country of the world.

And you retreat when your having your butt handed to you and cannot hold onto what you already have, which is what the separatists did.

a reply to: Whereismypassword

I couldn`t agree more, most Western Europeans are aware of those facts. They are sick of their own governments too for doing all this crap and than actually trying to make it look they are doing something good.

There are some who will try to make it look like that is not the case, and no matter how many facts they are getting presented, they still seem to be able to convince themselves it`s not the case.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: DJW001

All I`m saying, Russia is actually putting some kind of stop the crap US/EU have been pulling.

But the EU and US have no right to tell other countries what they can and cannot do!

Are you finally waking up...?

When have I ever supported criminal activities on the part of a government? George W. Bush should be tried for war crimes in Iraq, and V.V. Putin for war crimes in Chechniya and, now, Ukraine. Are you going to wake up at last or are you going to continue to make excuses for the new Stalin?

a reply to: Whereismypassword

Born again,no your right Russia wasn't behind the other throw of the last government

No they just put the stooge there so they have the influence over Ukraine, and the citizens didn't want the corruption he brought so they decided to get rid of him.

But of course that little bit of info is always left out...why?

Also a point worth mentioning is if Russia has realy invaded Ukraine they would have won a long time ago easily

Again it doesn't matter if it's 1000 or 10,000 troops, when another country sends armed troops into a sovereign country on the premise of disrupting the government and annexing part of that sovereign country it is an invasion, but for some reason in your blind folded world you can't grasp that...why?

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Whereismypassword

I couldn`t agree more, most Western Europeans are aware of those facts. They are sick of their own governments too for doing all this crap and than actually trying to make it look they are doing something good.

Except that there is not one single fact in that cut and paste litany. Since each lie has been addressed countless times before, it is not even worth discussing.

There are some who will try to make it look like that is not the case, and no matter how many facts they are getting presented, they still seem to be able to convince themselves it`s not the case.

You are the one who refuses to face facts. Now, If Bush is a war criminal, why isn't Putin?