NYT : Arm Ukraine or Surrender

a reply to: Xcathdra

This is getting really ridiculousness.

There are weapons in the Ukraine, that`s what`s meant with the other side.

They are not allowed to cross the border with weapons, and OSCE confirms no one is crossing the border with weapons.

...and still trying to make it look like weapons coming in from Russia...?

Thanks, laughing is healthy !

a reply to: Xcathdra

Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security

let read again.... im sorry but officialy no arm attack have been prove beside false claim from Kiev ... yes there is Russian >Volonteer< on the ground but i see no real ARM ATTACK from russia or any other nation as of right now.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

No its not.. READ your source and understand it. It is clearly stating weapons are not allowed from Ukraine going into Russia, however Russian weapons are being picked up, along with other military equipment, and ARE being allowed back into Ukraine. It even states that once those weapons cross, more soldiers cross from Ukraine, minus their weapons, to get more weapons from Russia and come back into Ukraine.

You misread or did not read your source. You tried to claim it said something it didn't by omitting the clarifying context of the next paragraph.

You got called out, you were wrong in what you claimed, and now you are trying to dismiss it.

It does not work that way sir.

a reply to: Dolby_X

Says Russia...

Ukraine invoked article 51 and the last UN meeting.

As has been stated time and again Russia can make all the claims it wants, and pro russians are free to support them and those claims, but in this case the evidence clearly shows weapons coming into Ukraine from Russia. See the article Born again is referring to that he failed to read. I posted the relevant sections.

I am guessing you either ignored my posts or ignored the info it contained because it didnt support the Russian version.

a reply to: Xcathdra

dont care what you post before im replying to a post in question where you bring the 51 to the discution ... im not pro Russian or pro West or anything as i already told you in the past im for human... Yes you bring some fact on source not always reliable but you stick to them and i like you for it but dont forget the 2 side of the medal !

Since there is confusion / creative editing occurring with some members -

Throughout the week, the OTs noticed a net increase of young people (both men and women) wearing military-style dress crossing the border in both directions but did not observe any weapons among these groups. OTs had regular interactions with supporters of the self-proclaimed republics. Some discussed openly with the OSCE while others expressed their total mistrust toward the OSCE. At both Border Crossing Points, some supporters of the self-proclaimed republics explained that they are not allowed to cross the border with weapons.

However, on the other side, there are organized places where they receive weapons, ammunition and equipment and are dispatched to their assigned areas on the Ukrainian side. Upon return, they hand over weapons, ammunition and other military equipment and cross back into the Russian Federation. In the case of Gukovo, there is even a firing range to calibre the newly-received weapons before continuing to the frontlines. As described in previous reports, on a daily basis OTs hear such range-like shootings on Ukrainian territory at a short distance from the Gukovo Border Crossing Point.

Pay attention -
"However, on the other side" = Russia

"they receive weapons, ammunition and equipment and are dispatched to their assigned areas on the Ukrainian side."

the OSCE observers are on the Ukrainian side of the border. They are stating individuals with weapons are not allowed to cross into Russian with those weapons. It goes on to state those individuals crossing are being issued weapons / supplies ON THE RUSSIAN SIDE OF THE BORDER and are crossing back INTO Ukraine with these weapons and supplies.

All that is required is for you guys to read the article and understand it.

originally posted by: Dolby_X
a reply to: Xcathdra

dont care what you post before im replying to a post in question where you bring the 51 to the discution ... im not pro Russian or pro West or anything as i already told you in the past im for human... Yes you bring some fact on source not always reliable but you stick to them and i like you for it but dont forget the 2 side of the medal !

Then, respectfully, you are being willingly ignorant on the issue.

With Russia allowing people to cross into their territory, where Russia in turn arms them and sends them back into Ukraine, Russia is in fact providing military aid. With the capture of Russian soldiers directly involved in the fighting now, ity clearly falls under article 51 in the UN.

You have 2 choices -
Continue to exist in ignorance simply because the facts dont support a specific agenda (or Russias).

or

Accept the fact Russia has been caught red handed assisting the rebels and have now introduced direct Russian support inside Ukraine.

Secondly this is not coming from a media source - Its coming directly from the OSCE observers stationed at the border checkpoints. The OSCE is what Russia requested - to have observers at the border points.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Ok so let take this with this logic ... what you call in Libya was ? the same even worse they use bomb on a contry to help the "Rebel"against the regime in place ... yeah USA do as i said not as i do... and im not talking about the $ send to the rebel to arm them ..

originally posted by: Dolby_X
a reply to: Xcathdra

Ok so let take this with this logic ... what you call in Libya was ? the same even worse they use bomb on a contry to help the "Rebel"against the regime in place ... yeah USA do as i said not as i do...

Logically speaking this has nothing to do with Libya and you know this. Please stick to the topic in question.

Russia has been caught arming the rebels and providing additional russian manpower. they invaded ukraine and ukraine invoked article 51 - self defense, and asked for assistance.

The Us is not militarily involved in Ukraine.

Yeah.. not pushing for WWIII Russia's not.

Russian General Seeks Nuclear First-Strike Option Against US

A Russian defense minister wants his country's official military doctrine rewritten to allow for a pre-emptive nuclear attack against the United States and NATO, the Russian-language news agency Interfax reports.

Russian Army Gen. Yury Yakubov said the doctrine, last revised in 2010, should be updated to classify the United States and other NATO countries as the "main enemy" of Russia, Interfax reported on Wednesday.

Yakubov, who is from the defense ministry's inspector general's office, also said it is time "to hash out the conditions under which Russia could carry out a pre-emptive strike with the Russian Strategic Rocket Forces," according to a translation of the general's remarks by the English-language Moscow Times.

Click link for remainder of article...

No provocation there...

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Since there is confusion / creative editing occurring with some members -

Throughout the week, the OTs noticed a net increase of young people (both men and women) wearing military-style dress crossing the border in both directions but did not observe any weapons among these groups. OTs had regular interactions with supporters of the self-proclaimed republics. Some discussed openly with the OSCE while others expressed their total mistrust toward the OSCE. At both Border Crossing Points, some supporters of the self-proclaimed republics explained that they are not allowed to cross the border with weapons.

However, on the other side, there are organized places where they receive weapons, ammunition and equipment and are dispatched to their assigned areas on the Ukrainian side. Upon return, they hand over weapons, ammunition and other military equipment and cross back into the Russian Federation. In the case of Gukovo, there is even a firing range to calibre the newly-received weapons before continuing to the frontlines. As described in previous reports, on a daily basis OTs hear such range-like shootings on Ukrainian territory at a short distance from the Gukovo Border Crossing Point.

Pay attention -
"However, on the other side" = Russia

"they receive weapons, ammunition and equipment and are dispatched to their assigned areas on the Ukrainian side."

the OSCE observers are on the Ukrainian side of the border. They are stating individuals with weapons are not allowed to cross into Russian with those weapons. It goes on to state those individuals crossing are being issued weapons / supplies ON THE RUSSIAN SIDE OF THE BORDER and are crossing back INTO Ukraine with these weapons and supplies.

All that is required is for you guys to read the article and understand it.

So let me recap this :

OCSE observers who are in Russia call Russia "the other side," that makes perfect sense.

Not crossing the border with weapons is crossing the border with weapons, OK got it !

Sorry I was confused.

a reply to: Whereismypassword

The rebels used superior training and tactics to draw the Ukraine army in and then attacked their exposed sides

And that superior training came from where...that's right Russia.

Non lethal aid Ukraine gets from America also includes training,sounds like their training is sub standard!

You got us the US military training is sub standard...but we are the ones that countries ask for help when they need it.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Pro Russians cannot cross into Russia with their weapons. Once the pro Russians cross into Russia, they go to specifics locations in Russia in order to obtain military supplies, like weapons, ammo etc.

They, Pro Russians, then take those military items and cross back into Ukraine.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Pro Russians cannot cross into Russia with their weapons. Once the pro Russians cross into Russia, they go to specifics locations in Russia in order to obtain military supplies, like weapons, ammo etc.

They, Pro Russians, then take those military items and cross back into Ukraine.

"Not crossing with weapons is not crossing with weapons," even with sleep you still can`t understand such a sentence.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Dolby_X
a reply to: Xcathdra

Ok so let take this with this logic ... what you call in Libya was ? the same even worse they use bomb on a contry to help the "Rebel"against the regime in place ... yeah USA do as i said not as i do...

Logically speaking this has nothing to do with Libya and you know this. Please stick to the topic in question.

Russia has been caught arming the rebels and providing additional russian manpower. they invaded ukraine and ukraine invoked article 51 - self defense, and asked for assistance.

The Us is not militarily involved in Ukraine.

Logically speaking this has nothing to do with Libya and you know this. Please stick to the topic in question.

Why wont you answer him the question? this is the same ironic response you gave me on Syria. He has asked you a legit question and thus you deflected it by claiming it wasn't on topic which when an a person says these sort of speeches in a given phrase you and should reply.

But i am not surprised that you avoided it.

Logically speaking this has nothing to do with Syria and you know this.

Russia has been caught arming the rebels and providing additional russian manpower

Really Russia has been caught arming the rebels and providing additional russian manpower based on whom again the lying American government and its journalists?

a reply to: charles1952

I am sure you do wish he'd go away. Is shutting up the opposition part of your plan? Were you born to it, or were you taught it over time?

For those whom are Anti-Russian they are recently trying to be experts on shutting up the opposition while doing it so frequently, trying to bring up John McCain's talking memo points on Russia.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

Dear Agent_USA_Supporter,

I APOLOGIZE. I WAS WRONG.

I had no business being as rude to you as I was in my most recent post. It goes against my ideal for myself.

Now, the argument you're advancing (and Viktor7 with others) is contrary to the statements of the press, Putin, NATO, Russian press and citizens' groups, and everybody else who isn't part of the Russian public relations department.

I don't understand you're rigidness of thought, but then, I don't have to.

The pro-Russian arguments in this particular case fail, but I was not justified in my poor behavior. Again, my apologies.

With respect,
Charles1952