NYT : Arm Ukraine or Surrender

originally posted by: Whereismypassword
The rebels used superior training and tactics to draw the Ukraine army in and then attacked their exposed sides

Non lethal aid Ukraine gets from America also includes training,sounds like their training is sub standard!

uhm no..

The Russians, not rebels. If the rebels knew what they were doing they would not have had their asses handed to them by Ukrainian forces.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I really wish you would STOP posting in threads concerning Ukraine, for those of us who read the threads, having to skip over your long-winded control freak anti-Russian propaganda drivel is annoying, why you haven't been banned from posting in these threads is beyond me.

a reply to: alphacenturi

I really wish you would STOP posting in threads concerning Ukraine,

I am sure you do wish he'd go away. Is shutting up the opposition part of your plan? Were you born to it, or were you taught it over time?

for those of us who read the threads, having to skip over your long-winded control freak anti-Russian propaganda drivel is annoying,

It's annoying to skip a post? I don't feel your pain. Instead of throwing out emotional rants about his posts, consider refuting the facts therein.

why you haven't been banned from posting in these threads is beyond me.

Because the moderators have seen that he brings solid information and discusses reasonably. But why don't you send a U2U to the Mods suggesting he be banned from the topic of Ukraine. Let us know what response you get.

Did you happen to listen to Reality Remix tonight? Ukraine was discussed in the last 20 minutes of the show. They keep past broadcasts if you'd care to listen. This thread, in particular was discussed.

a reply to: charles1952

I appreciate the defense but its not needed.

They are popping up in Ukraine thread after Ukraine thread, personally attacking me because they cannot refute the facts posted.

I take it as a compliment that they are going to complain about my posts. It only reinforces what I have been saying that if they could refute the facts they would have by now.

To demand I be ban and stop posting in these threads only serves as an example of how putin's position continues to mimic that of Hitlers when it comes to anything that does not share the same opinion of the one. Its ok to discuss what Putin is doing so long as we agree with it.

Trying to silence opposition is something Putin is starting to have issues with at home. iw ill continue to post and debate on this topic until such time the people who own / mod this website tell me im done.

With that said im still waiting on the pro Russians to refute my facts.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Dear Xcathdra,

Yeah, you're right. I shouldn't have butted in. If you felt it was worthwhile to swat this particular gnat, you could (as you've shown) handled it on your own.

By only explanation is that I can get frustrated by people who post, indicating they have something to say, then post nothing but anger and hatred, ignoring the topic.

So, an apology to you, and admiration for your good work.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Just wait till the US starts to send in weapons, after a few months the Separatist have a change to take control of the whole of Ukraine with those NATO goons giving tactical advice in Kiev.

So it's okay for Russia to supply the separatists with heavy weapons, but send an adviser to help Ukraine with their military they are called goons and it's wrong...amazing.

Do you not see the problem with that?

a reply to: charles1952

Is shutting up the opposition part of your plan?

Well that seems to be the one Putin uses.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Here`s some homework for ya :

Weekly update from the OSCE Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk, 28 August until 08:00, 3 September 2014

www.osce.org...

a reply to: charles1952

No apologies are necessary and I do appreciate you answering the accusations. I am merely stating that they are trying to derail the thread with their attacks. Dont fall into it being its what they want. They want to talk about anything except for the truth, which they cant refute.

As an example they talk about how the west should but out yet nothing about how russia is interfering. They want the west out so they can do what they want in order to restore the former soviet union. What they refuse to state is the only way that can occur is if the US / EU / West / NATO remain quiet and neutral.

Lavrov stated today that Ukraine will not join NATO. Again refusing to acknowledge the fact Ukraine is a sovereign nation and can choose to do what they want.

All the argument by Pro Russians and Putin, talking about how Russians are not interfering, how its in their near abroad, how the collapse of the soviet union was illegal etc has been stated before. If Russians knew their own history they would now and understand this.

Since they dont draw your own conclusion.

(I am currently working on a thread that touches on what we see now and what happened in the past and how its the same story by Russia and its paranoid leaders)

As an example - The mindset on the collapse of the USSR and borders, intervention while claiming its humanitarian was done by none other than Stalin during the Soviet war with Finland during WWII.

Stalin demanded that Finland surrender 2 provinces because at some point under Katherine the Great Russia lost those territories, among a few others. Finland refused time and again, leading up to the Soviet invasion of Finland (this would be the agreement between the soviet union and Nazi Germany dividing up Poland, the Baltic nations, Finland, Ukraine etc).

While Finland complained to the world about Soviet aggression, the Soviet foreign Minister, Molotov, maintained the Soviet Union did not invade Finland, and were instead airdropping food and supplies to the Finish people. Hence the term Molotov cocktail, which is what the Fins came up with the resist the soviet invasion. They decided that since the Russians were airdropping "food" the Fins would give them the cocktails in return.

What we are seeing now is nothing more than Stalin's game plan and Hitler's game plan being played out by Putin with 21st century language substituted for its 20th century mentality.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Here`s some homework for ya :

Weekly update from the OSCE Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk, 28 August until 08:00, 3 September 2014

www.osce.org...

Which part is confusing you?

his update is for media and the general public.

KAMENSK-SHAKHTINSKY, Russian Federation, 3 September 2014 - The Observer Mission (OM) is operating at full capacity. Cross-border traffic flow remained steady at both Border Crossing Points. However, the OM observed a clear reversal in the flow of people crossing the border (more people exiting the Russian Federation into Ukraine). The OM observed an increased military activity principally of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) in the vicinity of the Border Crossing Points. The OM heard considerable artillery detonations from the Donetsk Border Crossing Point.

A larger number of Russians are entering into Ukraine via that checkpoint.

Lets look at the breakdown -

ross-border movements common to both Border Crossing Points

The profile of the people crossing the border remains unchanged and can be categorized as follows:

Families on foot or by car with a lot of luggage;
Elderly people with few bags;
Adults (usually of younger age) with no luggage or empty cars;
People wearing military-style clothes with or without backpacks.

So we have more people entering Ukraine from Russia than vice versa.

The breakdown of people entering is above. The part that is bolded is showing those types of people entering Ukraine from Russia.


and this -

Throughout the week, the OTs noticed a net increase of young people (both men and women) wearing military-style dress crossing the border in both directions but did not observe any weapons among these groups.

Then the weapon issues -

However, on the other side, there are organized places where they receive weapons, ammunition and equipment and are dispatched to their assigned areas on the Ukrainian side. Upon return, they hand over weapons, ammunition and other military equipment and cross back into the Russian Federation. In the case of Gukovo, there is even a firing range to calibre the newly-received weapons before continuing to the frontlines. As described in previous reports, on a daily basis OTs hear such range-like shootings on Ukrainian territory at a short distance from the Gukovo Border Crossing Point.

Courtesy of the source you posted which supports the argument that Russia is directly involved and supplying military weapons to the rebels.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Not a single part is confusing me, however...

1) Yes there are Russian volunteers who fight in Eastern Ukraine, have you missed that piece of information ?

2) And yes there are people who have fled to Russia who are now coming back as reported in other news reports. But your mind immediately made the assumption they are Russian soldiers of course, no didn`t it ?

3) And where are the (heavy) weapons ?

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
Not a single part is confusing me, however...

Apparently it is,,

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
1) Yes there are Russian volunteers who fight in Eastern Ukraine, have you missed that piece of information ?

2) And yes there are people who have fled to Russia who are now coming back as reported in other news reports. But your mind immediately made the assumption they are Russian soldiers of course, no didn`t it ?

3) And where are the (heavy) weapons ?

Ukrainian soldiers are not going to cross into Russia from a rebel controlled border point in order to pick up weapons, training, and then return to Ukraine through rebel controlled border checks.

The only conclusion is they are pro Russian rebels / Russian military.

The heavy weapons entered the nation through the rebel controlled border checks when it was supposedly "humanitarian aid" as the British journalists observed.

Your attempted argument here is just as lacking as it was when Ukraine announced they captured Russian paratroopers. The Pro Russians complained about it being a lie up to the point Russia admitted they were Russians in Ukraine. Albeit the Russians tried to lie by stating they got lost.

We know this is a lie by Russia based on the Russian mothers demanding to know why their sons were killed and secretly buried.


Once again you tried to use a western source to support your position. Once again you hoped people would not read the report in its entirety because if they did they would see it does not come anywhere close to supporting your position.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Show me please where it states people are crossing the border with weapons ?

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Xcathdra

Show me please where it states people are crossing the border with weapons ?

www.abovetopsecret.com...
My post which is about 3 posts up.

From your own source -

Throughout the week, the OTs noticed a net increase of young people (both men and women) wearing military-style dress crossing the border in both directions but did not observe any weapons among these groups. OTs had regular interactions with supporters of the self-proclaimed republics. Some discussed openly with the OSCE while others expressed their total mistrust toward the OSCE. At both Border Crossing Points, some supporters of the self-proclaimed republics explained that they are not allowed to cross the border with weapons. However, on the other side, there are organized places where they receive weapons, ammunition and equipment and are dispatched to their assigned areas on the Ukrainian side. Upon return, they hand over weapons, ammunition and other military equipment and cross back into the Russian Federation. In the case of Gukovo, there is even a firing range to calibre the newly-received weapons before continuing to the frontlines. As described in previous reports, on a daily basis OTs hear such range-like shootings on Ukrainian territory at a short distance from the Gukovo Border Crossing Point.

Pro Russians cross into Russia, leaving their weapons on the Ukrainian side. They pick up new weapons and military equipment on the russians side and return to the ukraine side.


ETA - I added the entire part from your source for your own context in this post.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
Not a single part is confusing me, however...

Apparently it is,,

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
1) Yes there are Russian volunteers who fight in Eastern Ukraine, have you missed that piece of information ?

2) And yes there are people who have fled to Russia who are now coming back as reported in other news reports. But your mind immediately made the assumption they are Russian soldiers of course, no didn`t it ?

3) And where are the (heavy) weapons ?

Ukrainian soldiers are not going to cross into Russia from a rebel controlled border point in order to pick up weapons, training, and then return to Ukraine through rebel controlled border checks.

The only conclusion is they are pro Russian rebels / Russian military.

The heavy weapons entered the nation through the rebel controlled border checks when it was supposedly "humanitarian aid" as the British journalists observed.

Your attempted argument here is just as lacking as it was when Ukraine announced they captured Russian paratroopers. The Pro Russians complained about it being a lie up to the point Russia admitted they were Russians in Ukraine. Albeit the Russians tried to lie by stating they got lost.

We know this is a lie by Russia based on the Russian mothers demanding to know why their sons were killed and secretly buried.


Once again you tried to use a western source to support your position. Once again you hoped people would not read the report in its entirety because if they did they would see it does not come anywhere close to supporting your position.

Where is the proof besides two reporters who claimed something ?

And you expect us to believe they didn`t have a camera, not even on their mobile phones to back the claims they made...who believes such crap ?

Nice try...

The OSCE reports noted the weapons crossing from Russia into Ukraine. I have highlighted the section from the OSCE report.

I even stated the info comes from your own source - The OSCE report.

a reply to: Xcathdra

it's Sad the OSCE dont monitor what Ukraine is doing on the East part with all the $ coming from EU.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Nice try...

The OSCE reports noted the weapons crossing from Russia into Ukraine. I have highlighted the section from the OSCE report.

I even stated the info comes from your own source - The OSCE report.

Big fail !

Throughout the week, the OTs noticed a net increase of young people (both men and women) wearing military-style dress crossing the border in both directions but did not observe any weapons among these groups. OTs had regular interactions with supporters of the self-proclaimed republics. Some discussed openly with the OSCE while others expressed their total mistrust toward the OSCE. At both Border Crossing Points, some supporters of the self-proclaimed republics explained that they are not allowed to cross the border with weapons.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

If you actually took the time to read your own source you would see they are not allowed to cross from ukraine into russia with weapons. They are ALLOWED to cross from Russia into Ukraine with weapons.

the only fail here would be your reading.

So lets see the level of creative editing you used. The part above that you posted is not the entire post -

Throughout the week, the OTs noticed a net increase of young people (both men and women) wearing military-style dress crossing the border in both directions but did not observe any weapons among these groups. OTs had regular interactions with supporters of the self-proclaimed republics. Some discussed openly with the OSCE while others expressed their total mistrust toward the OSCE. At both Border Crossing Points, some supporters of the self-proclaimed republics explained that they are not allowed to cross the border with weapons.

the above is where you stopped.. What does the rest of that paragraph say?

However, on the other side, there are organized places where they receive weapons, ammunition and equipment and are dispatched to their assigned areas on the Ukrainian side. Upon return, they hand over weapons, ammunition and other military equipment and cross back into the Russian Federation. In the case of Gukovo, there is even a firing range to calibre the newly-received weapons before continuing to the frontlines. As described in previous reports, on a daily basis OTs hear such range-like shootings on Ukrainian territory at a short distance from the Gukovo Border Crossing Point.

Weapons are coming from russia into ukraine.

Again nice try.

originally posted by: Dolby_X
a reply to: Xcathdra

it's Sad the OSCE dont monitor what Ukraine is doing on the East part with all the $ coming from EU.

Because the lawful government in Kiev asked for international assistance, invoking article 51 of the UN charter, and nations are complying with the request of the government.