What would happen if Putin.......

Your hatred for Russia is worrying,get checked with a doctor as your blood pressure may be too high

Care to answer my question?

To keep this modern,who has killed more civilians in warfare in the last 14 years?


Russia or America and the UK

If Russia has secretly been waging wars I know nothing of and reaching far beyond its natural borders then I will concede defeat,if on the other hand they have not can you please refrain from polluting this site with fabricated stories as one thing I detest is liars and I will always call one out for being one

Balls in your court

Russian involvement in Ukraine is based on STRATEGIC REACTION TO A VITAL ISSUE.

Putin or no Putin, the Kremlin approach will be the same towards Ukraine, near abroad in NATO, BMDs etc.

If the Russian military or Kremlin core had difference in opinions with Putin on such issues, it would have already shown via public statements and media interviews etc.

My choice as alternative, if needed, would be Gen. Vladmir Shamanov of VDV. He is a very tough man. Will also help clear out corruption from Russian culture.

originally posted by: Whereismypassword

Your hatred for Russia is worrying,get checked with a doctor as your blood pressure may be too high

I have no hatred for Russia. I don't care for Putin or his policies. Secondly, why is a dislike of Putin something that needs to be chcked by a doctor? The only thing I would suggest be checked would be unwavering support while refusing to check Putins "facts". Not questioning what Putin does would also be a medical condition to be checked.

Apparently Pro Russians are suffering from Stockholm syndrome with a bit of Munchausen's by Proxy on the side.

originally posted by: Whereismypassword
Care to answer my question?

Which was? When you reply you are not stating who you are replying to.

originally posted by: Whereismypassword
To keep this modern,who has killed more civilians in warfare in the last 14 years?

North Korea, Iraq, Hamas, Syria, Militant Islam, etc etc.

Why stop at 14 years though? Don't like the thought of trying to argue your fake moral high ground with 20 million killed by Stalin? Or Stalins Nazi allies up to the invasion of Russia by the Nazis?

originally posted by: Whereismypassword
Russia or America and the UK

Don't think so.. See my list above.

originally posted by: Whereismypassword
If Russia has secretly been waging wars I know nothing of and reaching far beyond its natural borders then I will concede defeat,if on the other hand they have not can you please refrain from polluting this site with fabricated stories as one thing I detest is liars and I will always call one out for being one.

Their is ample evidence demonstrating Russia is involved in and within Ukraine on a military level. Ignoring that evidence does not invalidate it.

As for your comment about fabrication. I am free to challenge what anyone posts so long as I am within the T and C of this site. Just because you don't like my position, posts, arguments or facts does not mean I cannot post them. If you want pro Russia all the time find a Russian website to post in.

originally posted by: Whereismypassword
Balls in your court

Game set and match.

Feel free to come back and try again on a rematch. You might get a win out of it yet.

a reply to: pavil

I cant believe this "don't mess with a nuclear Russia" comment. What is this 1958 or some sh*t. What a stupid and irresponsible to say this day and age. What he going to do? Fire some nukes off if anyone messes with him? Talk about a terrorist.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: pavil

I cant believe this "don't mess with a nuclear Russia" comment. What is this 1958 or some sh*t. What a stupid and irresponsible to say this day and age. What he going to do? Fire some nukes off if anyone messes with him? Talk about a terrorist.

This also means that if NATO gets involved in Ukraine and declares war against Russia, then Western Europe will be bombed beyond repair.

On paper Russia has 1500 odd nuclear missiles but as to how many they have in secret storage etc. is anybody's guess. Given the way Russians like to do things, I would add another 1500 to the number.

Also, Putin has already called 1 Million reserves in August to end "new weapons" training by October. This shows he has further plans if Kremlin is provoked by anyone.

Btw, Where are the Russian tanks ?

Can't find them even 10 kms from the border !

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: victor7

.....and we put our dreams away...


I see the Russian government is not above using the same tactics of Hitler to quiet dissent.
Russian politician beaten after report on soldier burials

MOSCOW, Aug 30 (Reuters) - A Russian politician said on Saturday he had been badly beaten after publicising the mysterious funerals of two soldiers who may have died while fighting in Ukraine.

Lev Shlosberg, a newspaper publisher who represents the liberal opposition Yabloko party in the regional assembly in the northwestern city of Pskov, said he was attacked on Friday evening near his home.

"They attacked me from behind, I did not see any of them," Shlosberg said in a phone interview from his hospital ward.

"Apparently, they knocked me unconscious with their first punch, threw me to the ground, beat me up and then ran away. Those people were very good professionals in their nasty business."

Shlosberg's paper published the investigation into the funerals of two Pskov-based paratroopers last week. The report added to a trail of evidence suggesting that Russian soldiers have been killed in eastern Ukraine, contradicting denials by Moscow that it is lending military support to separatist rebels there.

Btw - where is the evidence of Ukraine acting like Nazis?

originally posted by: victor7

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: pavil

I cant believe this "don't mess with a nuclear Russia" comment. What is this 1958 or some sh*t. What a stupid and irresponsible to say this day and age. What he going to do? Fire some nukes off if anyone messes with him? Talk about a terrorist.

This also means that if NATO gets involved in Ukraine and declares war against Russia, then Western Europe will be bombed beyond repair.

On paper Russia has 1500 odd nuclear missiles but as to how many they have in secret storage etc. is anybody's guess. Given the way Russians like to do things, I would add another 1500 to the number.

Also, Putin has already called 1 Million reserves in August to end "new weapons" training by October. This shows he has further plans if Kremlin is provoked by anyone.

His bluff should be called. What about other morons watching this intimidation? This thing could have implications, could be a test of resolve to determine other moves they and others wish to make. Obama can be Jack Kennedy after all!

a reply to: Logarock

What Putin has accomplished was the very thing he did not want.

A united Europe.
The EU / US working together.
Non aligned countries seeking to join NATO.
NATO bases / troops being deployed in NATO countries with direct borders with Russia.
Sanctions on Russia (he counted on merkel to run pass block, which she did not).
Wanting the EU / US to stay out of Russian affairs in foreign countries.


In the end Russia is being isolated politically and economically. Even if Russia wins Ukraine, he is done with the remainder of the world. Trying to rebuild trade will be close to impossible.

If Putin was removed from power, completely eliminated from power, the new leadership that would eventually replace him, following restructuring would most likely emerge as being far more aggressive and dangerous.

I bet you there are some old school rooskies in the Kremlin that think Putin is too soft, too easily influenced by western forces, shows too much concern for his own celebrity status around the world etc. In fact, some may want Putin out even more than the west does...

imo

a reply to: Xcathdra

A united Europe.
The EU / US working together.
Non aligned countries seeking to join NATO.
NATO bases / troops being deployed in NATO countries with direct borders with Russia. Sanctions on Russia (he counted on merkel to run pass block, which she did not).
Wanting the EU / US to stay out of Russian affairs in foreign countries.

United Europe...............put some military/economic pressure on bitches and they will go their own way like the Ukes army.

Every failed nations wants to join NATO/EU in search of handouts. Ukraine is beyond failed.

NATO bases........big deal. 1 small nuke will make them go silent.

Sanctions on Russia........blessing in disguise. Brings Russia closer to Asia..........where the real growth is.

US/EU out of affairs.........that is the DNA of the west. Poking nose and feeling giggly after instigating civil wars.

You people are very sick !!

I am so very glad that I am not a diplomat. I can deal with people who want to talk and find a solution, but making the wild assumption that pro-Russian sentiment here is similar to Moscow's, I would find talking to them a nearly impossible task.

Russia moved in 6 months ago? Then I would have recommended through channels that every non-military pressure should be applied as quickly as possible, whether or not the EU went along.

After a few months of that, I'd visit Moscow again and we could talk. If that didn't produce results, I'd pull out the Budapest Memorandum, and say something like this:

"Mr. Foreign Minister, I'm sure you're familiar with this document in which Ukraine surrendered it's nuclear arsenal (it had the world's third largest at the time) and, in exchange received "Security Assurances" from the US and UK. You will agree that those two words are open to interpretation. I am recommending that the US interpret this to mean, among other things, defense from outside attack and subversion. Which is, of course, your current strategy.

"I am also recommending a call up of American troops and, with whatever we might receive from other countries, prepare to come to the defense of Ukraine militarily. It will take a little time for our soldiers to begin fighting, and you have our assurances that we will not enter Russian territory, but frankly, we've had enough and if we have to go to our end fighting for a little nation against a monstrous predator, well, there are worse ways to die."

Which is why I would not be a diplomat, which is also why the side I am on would win.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: pavil

I cant believe this "don't mess with a nuclear Russia" comment. What is this 1958 or some sh*t. What a stupid and irresponsible to say this day and age. What he going to do? Fire some nukes off if anyone messes with him? Talk about a terrorist.

Huh? Where did I say ANYTHING like that? Stop trying to go personal and stick to debating points. I know honest debate and dissent are in short supply in Russia nowadays, but try please.

Are you proud of how Russia is acting towards it's neighbors? To me, they are being the bully of smaller kids. Tell me how Russia's actions make its neighbors feel?

If things progress down this path, it WILL lead to a new Cold War and arms race. Just what both sides need right?

Putin's a left over from the old Soviet Union. He and many others around him want to see Russia become a super power again. He's a bully and likes to flex his countries nuclear arsenal. His rhetoric about the strength of Russia is something like a bully on a school yard trying to intimidate the kids around him.

Most countries who have nuclear capabilities have the common sense and decency not to use the threat of nukes to warn other countries to back off. Unless of course you're North Korea. To threaten other countries who have nuclear capability is just stirring the nuclear annihilation pot. Nobody can win a nuclear war, and most sane leaders realize that. It would simply be nuclear retaliation suicide.

Xcath,thank you for your reply


You are clearly deluded in your post to me,your so far in denial I have given up thinking your a frustrated McCarthy era troll but an Egyptian fishermen

For the record I'm English and lost my account details here but was Noangels and have been a member on this site since before 9/11 and have seen plenty of liars and deceives on this site for example one still active member here used a photoshop image of an Iranian lady giving the middle finger treatment to Ahmadinejad

I said modern history or we can all go back through this planets barbaric past and single out many countries,but thanks for highlighting Stalin I agree he was a monster and fitting his birth place is now modern Georgia considering their hideous actions against the local Russians in their country that led to the small incursion by Russia to put a stop to the bloodshed

You and I both know in modern times since the end of WW2 that America has killed millions of people all over this globe in locations far away from their borders and it won't stop

Your Ukraine posts in general have been blinkered,and your sources laughable at best

Ok seeing as you won't admit to Russia being a far less blood thirsty monster than the American parasites that pull the strings in Washington let's ask you another question about the media and D notes

On February 18, 2014 a member of Ukraine’s Parliament, Sergei Pashinsky, was stopped by protesters who searched his car. They found a custom AR-15 rifle equipped with a suppressor in his trunk. He was allowed to leave with it.

A BBC reporter and Guardian hack On February highlighted the fact that shots where fired from protestor controlled hotel

The sniper attacks were the final push that drastically changed the situation in Ukraine,so why hasn't Sergei been arrested and the people involved brought to justice?

The reason being it doesn't sit with western propaganda so this crucial element in this whole scenario has been hushed up and D notice for this must be in effect or any journalist worth his name would be all over it

The plane shot down with so many innocent torn from this mortal coil was quickly blamed on Russia but now the experts have the Data nothing is mentioned

Yet again another D notice showing you our so called transparent media is a mouth piece and because Russia didn't do this this subject matter is now wrapped up

You know Russia like most countries isn't perfect and I agree it's press should be more free but I understand the reason as they are under western backed media attacks designed to Lower morale and cause unrest in that country -they also seem to make journalist killings a national sport! Too many corrupt Russian thugs with bribed people in power protecting them

Having said that,there piss poor at killing people not their own colour far away from their borders

originally posted by: pavil
What would happen if Putin were to be eliminated? It seems the bulk of Russian expansionist dreams are more his than the Russian people.

Would Russia still be on it's current aggressive path or would it work on domestic issues? Personally, I think the world would be better off without Putin in the equation. Russians that I know left Russia because they feared what their country was becoming under Putin, those fears seem justified.

I'm curious as to what the ATS community thinks what would happen in a world without Putin.

could be it would start another world war. much like it was an assassination that caused WW1.

I find it strange how nobody seems to consider that maybe Putin is the puppet in place and that if he were removed another manufactured puppet would just take his place with the public forgetting it ever happened 2 years later.

I would like to add that many many people on ATS thought
that Putin was a great leader for years, even though some of us could see what he was.

Turns out he is worse than i imagined...

He's very very bad news...

Sadly there is no other way left for the West... Putin needs to be confronted, even though
he may not back down.
If he isn't confronted he's coming across Europe.

a reply to: victor7

So you are advocating a nuclear war then? That is also very sick. Take an hour or so to watch Threads which can be found on You Tube. You will then see the full horror of nuclear war in Europe. Oh and a word of warning don't watch this at night on your own. I made that mistake and slept with my bedside light ON for a few nights afterwards as I had nightmares after watching it.

I would not trust Putin to change my cat's litter tray. I have a friend who left Russia as my friend also saw the path Russia was going down and also fears for the future about Russia. Did you know for example that if an ex Russian national wanted to go back to Russia on a visit ie family crisis etc then that ex Russian national would need to reapply for Russian citizenship before being allowed back into Russia. This is irrespective of what passport they now hold.

My personal view on Putin?. Its in two parts. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts. I believed Putin and his KGB/old school style of thinking has corrupted him. He is power greedy and wont let go. Also I think he has gone off the rails. Especially since the divorce with his wife. I think he has had some sort of breakdown and now he is not entirely rational. Just my gut instinct feeling on the second part.

But yes, do watch Threads and then come back and say if you still advocate nuclear war.

If people here have a problem with Putin for leading a country the way he does, then, when are people on the west going to overthrow the people that rule them, the people that had killed millions of innocent people? When are the western people going to stop what they have been doing since the end of the WW2?

You've got nerves calling Putin a killer, while failing to recognize that your countries had done much worst things, killed much more innocent people, controlling everything and everyone. When are you going to overthrow people that will attack it's own people just to get a reason to launch an invasion into another country? Why do your countries keep funding terrorists? When are you going to put a stop to it?

Why are you worried what's going on Russia, when I can guarantee you, people on the west have much bigger problems. Why don't you worry about your country and "humanitarian" actions that it takes everytime they dislike some leader?

You people...