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Second-hand e-cig smoke compared to regular cigarette smoke

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posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 01:13 AM
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they may not be totally healthy but they are better than smoking cigarettes. It could put out 1% of the harmful things and people would still complain.

The crap your breathing from auto exhaust, factories and other air pollution plus all the chemicals you put on & in your body daily from soaps, deodorants, perfumes, body spays, toothpaste, mouthwash, chemicals in food, drugs you take and alcohol. I think the vapor from e-cigs are the least of your worries.




posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 01:19 AM
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a reply to: knoledgeispower

yeah...i'm not sure i buy this..

where are these heavy metals coming from?

the only things present in the vapor are the e-liquid's constituent elements, which would be water, flavoring, nicotine, and either propylene glycol, vegetable glycerine, or both....there aren't any heavy metals in those things...unless they're using REALLY funky water...

and when you exhale, it's water vapor, and trace amounts of the e-liquid's constituent elements....

this really does sound like a bogus, bought study, done by the tobacco industry, to try and scare people away from E-cigs...



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 02:57 AM
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Even just reading the summary, it's obvious that the zinc, silver etc are trace elements.
They also make the point that there are no aromatic hydrocarbons present. These are the things that are linked with cancer.

The upshot is, put simply, that exhaled vapour is actually less harmful than the air you breathe.

There's nothing in the report to even suggest you're at increased risk from being in the presence of a vaper.

No need for anyone to be getting upset really, apart from that most human of habits, just wanting to enforce their will on those around them.



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 04:09 AM
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originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: knoledgeispower

yeah...i'm not sure i buy this..

where are these heavy metals coming from?

the only things present in the vapor are the e-liquid's constituent elements, which would be water, flavoring, nicotine, and either propylene glycol, vegetable glycerine, or both....there aren't any heavy metals in those things...unless they're using REALLY funky water...

and when you exhale, it's water vapor, and trace amounts of the e-liquid's constituent elements....

this really does sound like a bogus, bought study, done by the tobacco industry, to try and scare people away from E-cigs...


Well I think the metals are coming from the heating element. I have wondered about the coil in the "atomizer", the replacements I get are from china, so one has to wonder what is the composition of the metals, and how does the composition of the heating element affect the amount of metals in the vapor.

I know I feel better since starting to e-smoke, however my goal is to quit all together. Its 10000x easier to quit vaping, because when one does vape, the smell of cigarette smoke from others is very apparent, probably more so than what a life time non-smoker experiences.

So yeah, I have a feeling a Big MAC from MacDonalds is probably worse than a e-cigarette.



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 05:14 AM
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Probably nit picking here, but deny ignorance right?

It's not smoke. E-cigs don't produce smoke. The stuff you exhale from e-cigs isn't smoke. Smoke requires some kind of combustion, e-cigs produce vapor which again, is not smoke. No smoke means none of the other typically "bad" things that come from burning something.

It would be like freaking out on someone on a cold day because of all the "smoke" coming out of their mouth when they breathe.

That said, I'm sure e-cigs are on the fast track to being demonized since anything a person can do for enjoyment will ultimately tick some people off. Wouldn't want someone else to be relaxed and enjoying their time after all. Can't allow that kind of slacker nonsense in THIS society.

Anyway...I don't smoke cigs or use e-cig products, just setting the record straight.

We will now be returned to the the regularly scheduled demonization of e-cigs....Thank you for your patience.



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 08:17 AM
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The OP is not denying ignorance with this report and her response to it, she is promoting ignorance. DENYING IGNORANCE includes using some good old-fashioned common sense, an argument that seems less and less in acceptance here.

The biggest danger this report SEEMS to illustrate is increased exposure to nickel and chromium, two components of wire commonly used as resistance wire for heating elements.

The e-cig will run this wire at a voltage of 3.3 - 4.2 VDC (some mods could run it as high as 6.0 but thats way too toasty for most vapors anyway; nost run at 3.5; this style e-cig in the test with a full charge unregulated may have started at 4.1, a bit high). The filament will probably not even glow.

Your blow dryer that you used to blow all the common sense out of your head is forcing air thru a mass of nickel / chromium wire glowing with the voltage of 110VAC and cooking these elements off into the fog that you are breathing in every morning.
That forced-air electric heater is likewise poisoning you, and that oven - oh man its just downright made you looney with all those toxic metal fumes.

I would conclude the OP has clearly pointed out how BAD this is for you and by using common sense, we must all already be DOOMED and the e-cig is just a government diversion to make us not see the real poisoning devices surrounding us! Wow.

As a side note, we can also see, using this same logic of the OP, what must have happened to millions of hairy-headed blown-dried people that became dumber and more demented thru this same exhaust of heavy metals permeating our enviroment, and know that the more blown-dried the head,the more toxic metal (oh I mean nickel and chromium, the OP never actually established any toxicity levels whatsoever) present in brain.

Dumb Bleach Blondes, rally! It wasn't the bleach and peroxide that did it! It was that damn blow-drier! (this also explains what happened to all the 80's rockers too, wasn't all the drugs, it was that inhaled chromium from blow-drying that glam-rock head).

The OP made one wise statement in a responding post.


I can admit I know nothing about ecigs because I have 0 interest in smoking. I do think people who smoke, especially in this day & age, are the ignorant/arrogant ones for smoking.

Justifies her attack with no knowledge whatsoever by leaning on the knowledge of a totally different substance, and then kicks it up a notch with the ignorance and arrogance. The OP screen name in this context is arrogant, as this is only using knowledge for power to abuse others not agreeing with ignorance.

Any statement beyond that by the OP concerning e-cigs should be taken exactly as the OP states above - a totally ignorant statement lacking any knowledge whatsoever. 'uh, i don't know nutting so I can talk about it and tell you about it"...what kind of denying knowledge is that?

Those with the e-cigs, fire them up (I mean, energize the coil), and if some person such as the OP walks upon you and tries to tell you how dangerous you are being to THEM, remind them that the propelyne glycol also acts as an anti-bacterial sanitizer and will therefore sanitize all the skank they are breathing in the air toward you spouting their drivel, and them puff them a big vapory cloud and tell them to go away and torture some kids somewhere.
edit on 31-8-2014 by lakesidepark because: I know nuttin, but I can tell YOU its BAD even though I know nuttin...where did common sense go? or the common decency that if you know nothing you shut the hell up and let those with real knowledge speak



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 08:19 AM
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originally posted by: knoledgeispower

I can admit I know nothing about ecigs because I have 0 interest in smoking. I do think people who smoke, especially in this day & age, are the ignorant/arrogant ones for smoking.


For those who remained civil, I thank you. For those who didn't, it's a shame your parents taught you nothing about manners. What does name calling accomplish? For starters, it makes you look like a tool who has 0 argument so the only thing you can do is name call. Second, wait that's actually the only thing.


"To sum it up: Pick your poison, they are both bad for you & people around you."


Moving past the irony of your post, I think people need to do their own research on ecigs and calculate the risks vs benefits. The latest "study" that declares they contain "things" is just fluff. I knew that ecigs would become the latest boogieman and that the rampant misinformation would flow.

Ive been vaping for three years. I did my own research at the time and came up with my own conclusions. As an "ignorant and arrogant smoker" for the majority of my life, I felt that this was the ultimate compromise between something I enjoyed and being relatively healthy.

I have not touched a tobacco product in this time. I still get the satisfaction from vaping. I feel better, much better, and still get to do what I enjoy doing. Until that changes, Im a vaper.



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 08:31 AM
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There's money to be made on both cigarettes and electronic cigarettes. I say it's a nasty and ignorant habit and one that is highly addictive. Some people can quit cold turkey and some are weak but the product is still there. I know all this because I've been stupid enough to try both. This is the single most ignorant thing I ever did in my life. I wish I was stronger.

I think tobacco works on people in different ways. I also think some of the addiction in mental. 20 years of have something in your hand comes to mind. People say smokers are stupid and they don't even say anything about the source.

I mix my own e juice and changed up on certain ingredients to try to cut down on the bad stuff. It's all bad really. It's not fresh air that for damned sure. I'll see you fellow smokers in an old folks home. We can share an iron lung for old times sake.



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 08:35 AM
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a reply to: knoledgeispower




It doesn't matter that ecigs don't emit smoke, they still emit vapors & those vapors are what have the toxins & metals in them. That is a fact, not propaganda. Just because they used the word smoke instead of vapor, doesn't mean that the toxins & metals being released, aren't being released.

It is propaganda because right off the bat, the article is implying that cigarette smoke and ecig vapors are the same, when they are not. It would be like me writing an article to compare fireplace smoke to boiling chicken noodle soup smoke. (I'll bet there are far greater amounts of heavy metals in boiling chicken noodle soup! someone should do a study.
) The word "smoke" is loaded in today's society and anyone trying to spread doom and gloom stories about ecigarettes knows this.

I like how the author is out to make all these toxins and heavy metals sound so horrifying. It's the quantities that make them poison. Are the amounts of anything contained in ecig vapor enough to constitute any kind of danger? No. Not in any study or article I have read, not even close.

Ecigarettes are the very least of our health concerns, considering the billions of vehicles on the road emitting tons and tons of crap into the very air we breathe, the emissions from factories, the crap in our food and water...jeez, ecigs are really a non issue and anti-smokers should be freaking jumping for joy.

BTW, i have been using one for 3 years as of September 15. I have no negative health issues whatsoever. However, I have stopped coughing, my energy levels have come back to where they were when I was in my 20s and as a side benefit, I stopped drinking a pot of coffee daily.



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 08:53 AM
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Its really funny that the report makes it a 'given' that this must be a hazard that is greater than the burnt tobacco cig. The exposure to nickel and chromium being the one identifiable hazard that does NOT exist in the traditional cig.

The elephant in the room is the list of thousands of hazards uncompared, to make the argument of 'lesser risk' something that could be attacked by zealots that use their knowledge to exert their power.

The correct term for this hazard of the e-cig is 'totally insignificant and non-quantifiable risk' as it exists in much larger quantities in every heating device we use. Tested by billions. No problems (except for those aforementioned bleach-blondes and glam-rockers - that evidence is still shaky at best).

Dam zealots, we quit smoking, we smell much better, and we are kind enough to sterilize the air we use and even flag it so you can see it and avoid it, please go pick on some fat people and leave us alone mmmmk?



posted on Aug, 31 2014 @ 04:11 PM
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originally posted by: knoledgeispower
To save time, I put everyone's response into one thread. Find your name & read the response. ((Although it would be helpful to read all responses, even if it's not to you))
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a reply to: starfoxxx


also OP if you read nickel, zince, and lead, are found in conventional cigarettes also..

Yes I read how there are higher amounts of Nickel, zinc & lead than that found in conventional cigarettes. Good to know you can read.


Acting like ecigs are not a safer alternative to conventional cigarettes is dumb..

Acting like it's no big deal that the toxins & metals in ecigs is still dangerous, even though it's not as bad as conventional cigarettes is dumb.


How can you competently say ahahahahaah gotcha ecgis baaaaaaaaad ecigs baaaaad ban them ban them..

what a moron
get a grip

I can competently say they are bad because there are still toxins & metals found in ecigs, therefore it is bad. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that toxins & metals are bad for you. You call me the moron, you are the one who needs to get a grip.
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a reply to: TheMistro81


I would be happy to go point by point, and lay it all out for everyone, but there is simply too much to go over
Not meaning you, but in general, most people on ATS ask for proof for arguments & they say if you don't provide the proof, you have nothing.

I can admit I know nothing about ecigs because I have 0 interest in smoking. I do think people who smoke, especially in this day & age, are the ignorant/arrogant ones for smoking.
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a reply to: darkwarrior
If the article doesn't say what kind of ecig was used, you will have to look at the article in the journal it was published in.
Particulate Metals and Organic Compounds from Electronic and Tobacco-containing Cigarettes: Comparison of Emission Rates and Secondhand Exposure

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a reply to: DogMeat

the OP did his best....give him that.

I hate it when people assume gender. I'm a woman.
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a reply to: CoherentlyConfused


I see the propaganda has infiltrated nicely into the masses. Ecigarettes do not emit smoke

It doesn't matter that ecigs don't emit smoke, they still emit vapors & those vapors are what have the toxins & metals in them. That is a fact, not propaganda. Just because they used the word smoke instead of vapor, doesn't mean that the toxins & metals being released, aren't being released.
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a reply to: SummerLightning

this is obviously the go-to thread for accurate information.

This is the go-to thread for hardly an argument against the topic on hand.
"They don't produce smoke. Case closed" I don't think so Tim. While yes there is no smoke, there are still vapors & within those vapors are toxins & metals.

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a reply to: TheMistro81

See the above response.
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a reply to: Jomina

Where is the lead, cadmium, nickel and zinc?

Not sure but this is what the study says in the journal it was published in.


Implementing quality control protocols on the manufacture of e-cigarettes would further minimize the emission of metals from these devices and improve their safety and associated health effects.

Particulate Metals and Organic Compounds from Electronic and Tobacco-containing Cigarettes: Comparison of Emission Rates and Secondhand Exposure
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a reply to: lightedhype


Nice try with your disinfo there OP. Try to find a not biased source for your drivel.

I thought it was a good try too, posting from a credible source. Sharing an article that clearly states that there are toxins & metals in ecigs, despite most of the amounts being less than conventional cigs, doesn't mean I'm trying to share disinfo. After all, they are still facts.

Also, stating that toxins & metals like chromium are bad for you isn't drivel.
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a reply to: Urantia1111


Where in the world would metals come from in this vapor?? Isn't it just nicotine and water with flavoring??

Gee I don't know, maybe the metal from the device being used to smoke the liquid? Really? Come on now.
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a reply to: rival


You can't lump all e-cigs into one study and then cite that ONE study.

E-cigs manufacturers are numerous--likewise for the e-cig liquid
manufacturers. You'd have to test each one independently, or all
of them as a whole, to get any significant results.


As I am not the one conducting the study, I don't know how it was done. I don't know if they only used one ecig & one egic liquid or if they tested a lot more. Maybe in the full article that was published in the journal it will say, I would think you would need to include that in your study but I'm not 100% sure.
~~~~~~~~~~

For those who remained civil, I thank you. For those who didn't, it's a shame your parents taught you nothing about manners. What does name calling accomplish? For starters, it makes you look like a tool who has 0 argument so the only thing you can do is name call. Second, wait that's actually the only thing.

Aside from saying "derp, derpa, derp, it must be false because no smoke is actually released from ecigs" and/or "derp, derpa, derp, it must be false because big tobacco companies don't want ecigs to replace regular cigs" Does anyone have actual evidence to back them up? Can anyone show me evidence that says "the toxins & metals from ecigs is not harmful?"

Yes, ecigs aren't as bad as cigs but they are still bad. They are still releasing toxins & metals, which still is not good for you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that toxins & metals are not good for you. Ergo I stand by my original statement:
"To sum it up: Pick your poison, they are both bad for you & people around you."
Are you not getting the point OP? ECIGS ARE TEN TIMES SAFER then a conventional cigarettes for the person vaping AND for the person second hand vaping.

It IS MARVELOUS for people ADDICTED TO conventional cigarettes to be ABLE to switch to a electronic cig and it be MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH safer then a burning tobacco cigarette. Why can't you be praising the good health effects of the ecig? The good health benefits regardless of your bias opinion your study you posted admitted IT IS MUCH SAFER THEN conventional cigs.. Think of all the lives that can be SAVED, are you ignorant to this>?? This is a good thing it can SAVE LIVES.. GET REAL OP.. stop your bs



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 03:54 PM
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originally posted by: starfoxxx



Are you not getting the point OP? ECIGS ARE TEN TIMES SAFER then a conventional cigarettes for the person vaping AND for the person second hand vaping.

It IS MARVELOUS for people ADDICTED TO conventional cigarettes to be ABLE to switch to a electronic cig and it be MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH safer then a burning tobacco cigarette. Why can't you be praising the good health effects of the ecig? The good health benefits regardless of your bias opinion your study you posted admitted IT IS MUCH SAFER THEN conventional cigs.. Think of all the lives that can be SAVED, are you ignorant to this>?? This is a good thing it can SAVE LIVES.. GET REAL OP.. stop your bs


You aren't getting the point, just because it is a bit safer than conventional cigarets doesn't matter, it is still NOT good for you, period!!!!!!!!!!! I'm getting real tired of repeating myself. Unless people start responding with proof, I will not be responding back.

To me there are 0 good health effects to the ecig. You want good health effects, stop using ecigs. Maybe if the only option to help you quit smoking was the ecigs then I could tolerate it. However, it is not & because you are still subjecting yourself to toxins & metals (even if it is less than cigs) is still BAD.

Again, it is like saying BPS is ok to use even though it is not as bad for you as BPA.

Think of all the lives that can be saved if there were no ecigs...oh wait ecigs is a new thing so there were lives that could have been saved that are now being subjected to toxins & metals that they otherwise wouldn't have if there were still no ecigs. Are you that arrogant that you can't see that?

You get real & stop the b.s. Once again no one has provided any evidence that counters my claim. I'm always told on ATS that if you are going to argue against something, you must provide proof & NO BODY has done so. Ergo I still stand by my claim.

"To sum it up: Pick your poison, they are both bad for you & people around you."



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 04:40 PM
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originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
This doesn't surprise me.
My boyfriend did the e-cig thing for a little while, and the smell of it made me me gag. To me, it had a really strange, familiar smell... And it wasn't until he was weeks from quitting that it clicked in my head that when he blew the air out, it smelled like the medication in inhalers. I immediately told him to get rid of it. If you're smoking something that smells like a medication it's probably not good for you.

He pulled the "I'm addicted to it," line and didn't quit til later on, but I stayed away from it.


"If you're smoking something that smells like a medication it's probably not good for you."

There is just zero logic or intelligence in that statement at all, it's close to being a non-sequitur. The smell of ecig vapor depends on whatever flavorings are used, there are about a million different flavors you can get that all smell different.

What a great partner you are, letting your ignorance and arrogance force your partner into going back to smoking. You don't like the smell of a particular juice so you think it's better to smoke cigarettes. Gotcha.



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 04:51 PM
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Aside from the fact that the study shows how incredibly safe vapor actually is, yet the focus and slant is in a negative light exposing the bias of the author, people need to think of things in context.

The metals they talk about are:

A. In very trace quantities
B. Present all over in the environment from other sources

What matters is "does someone sitting next to me with an ecig make my immediate environment more dangerous to a significant level" and the answer is a definitive "NO" it does not. If they aren't putting you into any more danger than you would be then you don't have any right to complain. You are exposed to far more crap in any given day than you would be sitting next to someone vaping an ecig.

Why do you have the right to go around blowing toxic chemicals out of your butt, our of your gut, various fragrances and chemicals in your soap, shampoo, perfume/cologne, spewing toxic chemicals from your car's tailpipe, releasing chemicals into the air from all the plastic and synthetic products you own, why do YOU have a right to poison ME with ALL that? But I don't have a right to release basically harmless vapor next to you? That's just ridiculous.

Clean up your own chemical mess you release into the air everywhere you go, and THEN you'll have room to complain about people releasing vapor near you.

Because that's the bottom line you are not getting, the "danger" that ecigs expose you to is nothing compared to the million other "dangers" that are accepted without a thought by anybody. And the people complaining about ecig vapor themselves produce far more dangerous chemicals in the air when going about their daily lives, but they think they shouldn't be held to the same standard they hold others to. They think they can release all this crap into the air, but if someone does it and enjoys it, then it needs to be stopped. Hypocrites.
edit on 1-9-2014 by James1982 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 04:58 PM
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The models being used are also the equivalent of judging a car's emissions by testing a car from the 60s. Ecig technology advances incredibly fast and the models they use for their tests are ignored by everybody except new people just starting out.

The low quality devices they test use Nichrome wire, which is likely where the Chromium is coming from. But again, TRACE amounts, AND check the back of your medicine bottles, you are eating Chromium on purpose, now complain when ecig vapor has trace amounts? Jeez...

Better quality devices use Kanthal A1 wire which is iron based and doesn't really release any potentially dangerous materials.



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 05:02 PM
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E-cigs scare the crap out of big tobacco and tax collectors. Of e-cigs are not classified as a dangerous substance with healthcare costs, then a lot of tax revenue is going to be lost. Remember that tobacco is blamed for every ailment connecting to heart and lung.



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 05:12 PM
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originally posted by: knoledgeispower

You aren't getting the point, just because it is a bit safer than conventional cigarets doesn't matter, it is still NOT good for you, period!!!!!!!!!!! I'm getting real tired of repeating myself. Unless people start responding with proof, I will not be responding back.



You get real & stop the b.s. Once again no one has provided any evidence that counters my claim. I'm always told on ATS that if you are going to argue against something, you must provide proof & NO BODY has done so. Ergo I still stand by my claim.



You don't HAVE a POINT to GET. You provide absolutely NO evidence that what you claim as a hazard is a hazard at ALL or uniquely related to e-cigs at all, and yet YOU have the GALL to demand EVIDENCE to counter your non-substantiated point?

You 'claim' that e-cigs are a hazard to you, and provide a report that all but says they are extremely safe; a report that notes trace quantities of two metals, and notes NO hazard associated with it...no, you have made no point at all to justify your arrogance and snobbishness against those that enjoy the e-cig. NO POINT AT ALL, my good friend, shall I blow you a vapory cloud and let you enjoy the freshness?

You could claim your butt blows golden bricks but without providing any evidence that what you produce is gold, NO ONE has any need to COUNTER such a ridiculous argument. Your one source has been debunked as providing plenty of evidence to counter your own arguments, scant references to help you fabricate one, and no evidence that remotely agrees with your claims. Yep, looked, see no point made, and no need to counter a point never made...just agree with us and join the dark side won't ya?
[SNIPPED]

edit on 1-9-2014 by lakesidepark because: go slap some kids and take their candy its not good for them mmmmk?

edit on Mon Sep 1 2014 by DontTreadOnMe because: Community Announcement re: Decorum



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 05:15 PM
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It's my opinion that second hand smoke from either don't really do any harm.
Most people who smoke normally smoke for 20+ years and the majority don't die from smoke related illnesses so I imagine it's got to be almost impossible for a none smoker to be seriously affected....... But,
That's just my opinion.



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 05:57 PM
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a reply to: knoledgeispower

You are stating that they are not good for you or people around you, yet you offer no proof of anything either.

The article you linked to doesn't provide any actual data or a link to the study results.

Our bodies require trace levels of heavy metals to survive. Even ones like Arsenic. Again, the dose makes the poison and the trace levels found according to this article, if they were in-fact from an ecigarette (which i cannot be sure of with the OP article) are a non-issue. You are saying they are dangerous, so the oneness is on you. Can you prove that trace levels of heavy metals is dangerous?

The article states the study was done in an open-air room type environment, yet they don't state whether the air was tested beforehand to mesure heavy metal content.

A big source of heavy metals in our air comes from vehicle exhaust. So how do we know the air wasn't already contaminiated? And do you realize that if you drive a vehicle or breathe the air where vehicles are used, you are, in-fact, inhaling heavy-metal pollutants from those vehicles.

EVALUATION OF HEAVY METAL EMISSION AND TRANSFER FROM ROAD AND TRAFFIC SOURCES

So I cannot be sure that the results of this study weren't due to heavy metal concentrations already in the air, therefore, OP, you really have no proof of anything at all.



posted on Sep, 1 2014 @ 06:24 PM
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a reply to: CoherentlyConfused

That is the reply I wish I could have made. But I could hear him (uh...her) walking up and whining about how bad they are for me and how I'm pollutin' up her air, and then me getting slapped as I blow up a cloud to kill off (sterilize if you will) all the pathogens being spouted with the hot air of the arguments being presented towards me along with the slap.

The problem with the opposition to the e-cig is that too many jump on board from their smug-greater-than-thou anti-tobacco point of view, and their general opposition to anyone enjoying something they don't like (or won't let themself have -that internal devil just poking and saying c'mon its tasty) clouds their objective analysis of the facts.

The OP has an obvious bias toward the e-cig based on nothing except their absolute distaste for smoking, and for some reason grabbed this article to use an illusion of knowledge as a powerful battering ram - but this ram is made of cardboard, and batters nothing, it's only fluff and distraction.



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