Mind/Soul

I was thinking about the near-impossible situation of a brain-transplant a couple weeks ago, and a question came to mind:

If my brain were transplanted into somebody else's body, when they "turned on" the brain again, would I wake up in the other person's body? Or would that person still be the same person just with a brand spankin' new brain? In other words, is who we are determined by our brains, or by something else, like a soul? If we transplanted my brain into your body, and you still woke up as you, then there's something else going on besides mind memory, I think. If memory is kept in the brain, then that means the human brain is basically a computer, with information stored in it, and therefore should be able to be accessed in various ways, to manipulate, alter, delete or add information. It also means that if we cloned a human being, and the brain was copied exactly, that person would have the same memories as the original, correct?

Any thoughts about this? (Please open your minds and avoid the fact that brain-transplants are a medical impossibilty at this time.)

Awesome thought, and one Ive had before.
I dont beleive the mind/personality is merly a function of the brain, after all
folk have parts of the brain removed for various reasons, yet still retain memory.
heres an analogy i thought up long ago:

Your body requires a brain to function, much as a car requires an engine.
However, the car still cannot function without a driver. Its a lifeless machine.
The brain has been studied and electrical energy is a constant in the brain.
There has never been found anything relating to memories or personally found in the brain, its simply a part, albeit a vital part.
So (Barring physical damage or disease) what is the difference between the live body and the dead exactly?
The brain powers the body and the body feeds the brain, the body could be said to be like the petrol/gas in a car. If the fuel runs out, the car stops.
If the body starves, the brain stops.
But where is the "driver"? If the body is all purely biological function, it should be like an animal, instinctive, having no personality, thought, decision making, likes/dislikes etc etc. Yet something is different, what is that, "divine spark"?
If my heart stops, they should be able to start it up again, like turning the ignition of a stalled car. (infact this happens often) but what of those who remain flatline despite being paddled? The body is otherwise healthy (say the heart stoppage is result of electricution) /Car has fuel, what then is missing?
Has the driver left the scene? What is that vital connection.
Theres a quote along the lines of...
"lest the golden bowl be shattered or the silver cord be severed, he returneth no more" What does this refer to?
I think this where the concept of "soul"/driver? comes in.
Failing to establish this vital difference, I beleive there must be something more than just the brain that makes a person who they are, something intangible and unseen.

Originally posted by instar
Your body requires a brain to function, much as a car requires an engine.
However, the car still cannot function without a driver. Its a lifeless machine.

That's a great analogy! I wish I had thought of it first! It reminds me of how often in the past I've heard the body referred to as a "vehicle" and also as a "vessel". This is actually making me rethink my theories on God. Because if there is indeed a soul, there's a good chance that there is also a God. Perhaps if we could figure out a way to do a brain transplant we could have some real evidence that God does indeed exist, or at the very least that there is life after death.

If my brain were transplanted into somebody else's body, when they "turned on" the brain again, would I wake up in the other person's body? Or would that person still be the same person just with a brand spankin' new brain?

***Only an opinion of course, but no. 'You', would not wake up in another persons body. You - if you got the other persons brain, would think differently, be smarter or lesser so - but the soul is not in the brain. True, the soul has maybe 100% to do with HOW we use our brains - but they are seperate entities.

In other words, is who we are determined by our brains, or by something else, like a soul?

***The functioning of our brians will lend a had in our IQ, the way we think, the functioning of our body - but it is only a physical part - nothing everlasting.

I think the soul/spirit/consciousness is channelled through our brains, but bot of it there's speculation I have read that suggests the whole nervous system may be sentient and not just the message sender so to speak. Has anyone read of transplant recipients who have begun to manifest aspects of the original hosts character

I think we should consider three things. The physical, mental and the spiritual. It might be possible , in the future, to transplant just a brain. And it might even be possible that the brain could carry the memories and thought processes along with it. But, i believe that the soul is the essence of the entire nervous system. In order for the soul to be trnsplanted you have to transplant the entire nervous system. If you just transplanted a brain, your mixing the nervous systems and mixing the souls. which would be stupid, so i think the souls just disappear into their little afterlives, which would leave the bodys lifeless. so in order for the transplant to actually work, you would need a false soul. Perhaps electricity, because thats what dr.frankenstein did, but i doubt it works.

Originally posted by CountFranklin
I think we should consider three things. The physical, mental and the spiritual. It might be possible , in the future, to transplant just a brain. And it might even be possible that the brain could carry the memories and thought processes along with it. But, i believe that the soul is the essence of the entire nervous system. In order for the soul to be trnsplanted you have to transplant the entire nervous system. If you just transplanted a brain, your mixing the nervous systems and mixing the souls. which would be stupid, so i think the souls just disappear into their little afterlives, which would leave the bodys lifeless. so in order for the transplant to actually work, you would need a false soul. Perhaps electricity, because thats what dr.frankenstein did, but i doubt it works.

One problem with that. The nervous system is physical just like the brain. The part of ourselves that is on going has nothing to do with the physical atributes this body has.

One problem with that. The nervous system is physical just like the brain. The part of ourselves that is on going has nothing to do with the physical atributes this body has.

yes it does! the soul or spirit is the essence of the entire nervous system, people. including yo brain, and all your nerves. the relation between the spiritual and physical is that the soul dwells inside the nervous system. I mean, where else could it be? It's just stupid to say that or soul has nothing to do with our bodys.and that's what you just said.

Originally posted by CountFranklin

One problem with that. The nervous system is physical just like the brain. The part of ourselves that is on going has nothing to do with the physical atributes this body has.

yes it does! the soul or spirit is the essence of the entire nervous system, people. including yo brain, and all your nerves. the relation between the spiritual and physical is that the soul dwells inside the nervous system. I mean, where else could it be? It's just stupid to say that or soul has nothing to do with our bodys.and that's what you just said.

Let me put it a different way. The body to the soul is like a pair of pants to your butt. One is nothing more than a covering and is completely independant from the other.
CountFranklin, I believe we see things far too differently to come to any compromise. Your posts make me think you are angry, fustrated or just plain onory. For that reason, I try to keep my replies to you as brief and without cause to give you something to be combative about as possible.

the difference between your pants analogy and my spirit/nervous system theory is that, the pants do cover the butt like a body would cover a spirit. however they're not connected. And the spirit HAS to be connected to the body in order for it to work. The spirit is the energy flowing throughout the nervous system and they ARE connected. How can the spirit and the body not have any connection to eachother, and yet, we're still alive. If our spirit was disconnected in any way, we would not be alive.

Originally posted by CountFranklin
the difference between your pants analogy and my spirit/nervous system theory is that, the pants do cover the butt like a body would cover a spirit. however they're not connected. And the spirit HAS to be connected to the body in order for it to work. The spirit is the energy flowing throughout the nervous system and they ARE connected. How can the spirit and the body not have any connection to eachother, and yet, we're still alive. If our spirit was disconnected in any way, we would not be alive.

I understand what your saying. But the nervous system is no different than an arm or leg in reguards to being physical. I somewhat seperate the words 'mind' and 'brain'. The mind I think of as meening the thoughts and feelings and way of thinking. The brain, where man believe those things to origonate from, is ony a physical organ that is a mystery to science and differs from person to person. The mind - yes, connected. The brain, nervouse system, then the body conveying it's resopnces - I don't think so. Why? Well, a simple answer would be to say that once the nervous system dies along with the body, the soul lives on.

Connected in terms of being one at the time in which the body serves as a cover - yes, to a degree. But then there are many who believe that there is a way to seperate those things while still living within this body (i.e. OBD ect.)

BTW, reading that post, I seemed rude and untollorating. I didn't meen to, sorry.

As far as where the soul resides, you asked if not in the nervouse system, where else would it be? It lives within us. A part of us, but within us. Not an empty space being filled, the entire person being filled.

You would wake up in the other persons body. The car anology was good, but a btter one would be that of a computer.

Think of your "soul" (if there is such a thing) as a program...it is stored on the hard drive... Take the hard drive and put it in the new computer, and you will have the same program...

To think that the other person would wake up with your brain is absurd.

And to the person who said about there being no proof of memory in the brain, that is absurd also. Memory has everything to do with the brain. Google it and you will find millions of sites with very technical information on the brain and how it works. Why do people get amnesia or black outs etc, when they take a hard hit on the head?

Well if they could keep a brain alive in a jar hooked up to wires...
where would the soul be then?

quote: "Not an empty space being filled, the entire person being filled."

im not saying that the nervous system is hollow with spirit inside. im saying it's the energy flowing throughout the nervous system, which does cover your entire body, inside and out. the soul may feel like it fills the entire body, but that's only because it is the energy of the nervous system, which again, fills your body inside and out. everyone seperates ( or at least ,should start) the words mind brain.one is physical and one mental.
if they put a live brain in a jar with wires the soul would probably go to the afterlife stage. I see what you're saying, using the wires as a psuedo-nervous system and the electricity as a psuedo-soul , but electricity alone, i doubt, could serve as a false soul.

Hm, I opened this thread a long time ago. Maybe if I add a reply to it more people will respond...but probably not.

I guess the whole issue is whether who we are is determined by what's in our brains, what's in our souls, or if it has to be the whole package. I wonder the same thing about cloning: when you clone a person does their soul get cloned, too? I don't even necessarily believe in souls, but if we were to clone a human being, and the soul is not cloned, does that make the clone a soul-less being? How does it survive then? And are memories transferred in the cloning process? What about Walt Disney's head sitting in a cryogenic freezer somewhere waiting to be brought back to life when technology will allow? If that ever happens will he be the same Walt Disney with the same "soul" Hmmmm, too many unanswerable questions.

i love this question!
i read a book once that almost asked this very same question. the author was trying to relate consciousness with mind and body.

here is what i think.
if you transplanted a brain, i think your soul would follow the brain. however, i think that a soul, being energy, would have left some residual stuff behind. and, in turn picked up the residual stuff left behind from the other soul, that left the body your in now. i hope that makes sense.

i think basicaly, you have a quantum physics question here. a question of entanglement.

i think, in a small way the two souls would entangle, and mesh. sort of.

this brings another question to mind.
does your soul learn, adapt, and stuff like that. does your soul memorize, in a way, how your arms and legs feel? how they move? how they look?

what then would happen if your soul was placed in another body?
would your soul feel trapped in a strange place?

ok......now im rambling....
great question though

The brain is simply the equipment that the soul uses to gain information and survive. The soul is attached to the brain/body and can be removed through death or Astral Projection.

A brain without a soul is like a car without a driver, or a computer without a user. It's just a dead machine.

Originally posted by an3rkist
Hm, I opened this thread a long time ago. Maybe if I add a reply to it more people will respond...but probably not.

I guess the whole issue is whether who we are is determined by what's in our brains, what's in our souls, or if it has to be the whole package. I wonder the same thing about cloning: when you clone a person does their soul get cloned, too? I don't even necessarily believe in souls, but if we were to clone a human being, and the soul is not cloned, does that make the clone a soul-less being? How does it survive then? And are memories transferred in the cloning process? What about Walt Disney's head sitting in a cryogenic freezer somewhere waiting to be brought back to life when technology will allow? If that ever happens will he be the same Walt Disney with the same "soul" Hmmmm, too many unanswerable questions.

It would be, assuming he survives the freezing, the same Disney.

A clone would only clone genetic material. Memory isn't genetic, so whilst you would have an exact physical copy, they could turn out to be a very different person, as environment plays a large part in shaping personality.

I still think that the computer is a HD and the "soul" (for want of a better word) is the program. The brain has alot of EM energy sloshing about. maybe this is the soul. After death, maybe it floats off and does whatever souls do when they have no body.

Maybe, it is possible to clone yourself and transfer the soul to the new body, leaving the old body to be an emtpy shell....

I dont really believe in the soul, at least the way mainstream religion puts it.
If it exist, then when your dead, the soul that lives on, you wont konw about it...if its as secretive in this life and you dont know about it, be sure you wont know about it once your dead.
Sounds more like an alien leech to me!

If a brain were to be transplanted into another body...you would wake up in another body...period.
No soul lost, left behind...etc.
We are nothing more than a data bank of collective memories.

Now if there is a soul...then I think its something that will blow all of our minds.
More of someone playing a video game and we are not real...my thoughts now, are not me, my awareness of me is not me.
I have a post somewhere around here that gives an experience that is quite similar to someone taking D.M.T. (no I have not used anything, it was a natural occurence)

you are in the matrix

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by Voidmaster
The brain is simply the equipment that the soul uses to gain information and survive. The soul is attached to the brain/body and can be removed through death or Astral Projection.

A brain without a soul is like a car without a driver, or a computer without a user. It's just a dead machine.

Then please do what no one has. Show us the driver...this mysterious person/being driving the machine. Cant? Didnt think so. No Im not being rude, but realistic. If someone could point that out they would be a nobel prize winner.

I want proof after years of believing religion, parents, and just the whole blind concept of some soul that is a security blanket so I feel good that when I die I go somewhere and dont do as Solomon even said...go back in the ground and stay there. Interesting, its in the Jewish & Christian Bible...quite overlooked.

Peace

Dalen