What I love about the pro-life logic...

Often on ATS I will see pro-lifers place the responsibility of pregnancy on the woman with such reasons as:
"She shouldn't be having sex"
"She should be on birth control"
"Shouldn't have opened her legs"
Although often the comments are more demeaning than above.

That being said, if a woman is mainly responsible for allowing herself to get pregnant, why then can she not be deemed responsible enough to make decisions about that pregnancy?

It is illogical to hold someone accountable and then to remove accountability because they might make a choice your not on board with. Illogical and quite offensive actually.

This rant stems from some tightening of abortion clinic laws in Texas, I would link it but I'm on the iPhone and about to sleep.

Flame away pro-lifers, nothing you say makes coherent debate anyway!

Not to be crude but if a mans $&$& fell off if he accidentaly got a girl pregnant, he would probably wear a condom. Keeping in mind personal responsibility.
Don't take this as saying men have no duties to undertake concerning the baby.

As for abortion, anybody that thinks aborting an 8 month old fetus is not murder has a screw loose.
How about meeting in the middle. No abortions after the first trimester and making adoption easy after that with the adoptive parents paying the medical costs..

a reply to: SearchLightsInc

I can bet 95% of those people making the rude comments are male.
I have only met a handful of females who weren't for abortion. And those were either hardcore Christians or Catholics, or were just somewhat off to begin with into some other sort of spirituality.

I think if it's caught early enough and you cannot support a child it would in the future persons best interest to keep them out of this screwed up, over populated world. Mistakes happen, and we have the power as humans to control something like this. If we didn't we would have WAY more orphaned, unwanted, hated, low income, children. Which will just snow ball down the path to even bigger problems.

a reply to: SearchLightsInc

That being said, if a woman is mainly responsible for allowing herself to get pregnant, why then can she not be deemed responsible enough to make decisions about that pregnancy?

Well, I would not respond to a woman who was pregnant with any of those statements, but, just as there was more than one person involved in the decision to have sex, there is more than one person involved in the decision to terminate a pregnancy.

You won't agree, but in my opinion, the most important person, the one being aborted, is the one who is never given a voice.

a reply to: SearchLightsInc

That being said, if a woman is mainly responsible for allowing herself to get pregnant, why then can she not be deemed responsible enough to make decisions about that pregnancy?

Many people don't consider it a decision about a pregnancy, but a choice to commit premeditated murder. Personally, I see both sides of the argument, but I lean towards considering it a murder.

ETA: Also, after becoming a parent myself, I don't see how anyone could kill a potential child.

a reply to: adjensen


The man should also have a choice. He will be forced to pay child support for the baby for at least 18 years so how can he be held financially responsible yet have no say about an abortion?

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
Not to be crude but if a mans $&$& fell off if he accidentaly got a girl pregnant, he would probably wear a condom. Keeping in mind personal responsibility.
Don't take this as saying men have no duties to undertake concerning the baby.

As for abortion, anybody that thinks aborting an 8 month old fetus is not murder has a screw loose.
How about meeting in the middle. No abortions after the first trimester and making adoption easy after that with the adoptive parents paying the medical costs..

You have completely avoided answering the illogical argument stated in the OP, when you answer that, I will engage with you about your quoted comment above.

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
a reply to: adjensen


The man should also have a choice. He will be forced to pay child support for the baby for at least 18 years so how can he be held financially responsible yet have no say about an abortion?

Great point. I have often thought this myself.

The fact of the matter is a great deal of reaponsibility in getting pregnant does lie on the shoulders of the woman. That being said - if a woman is in a situation where she feels abortion is the only option and yet still gets pregnant it proves profound irresponsibility. Just because she is being held responsible for the pregnancy means nothing.

Children are given responsibility all the time and iften time they proves themselves incapable...

My problem with abortion is the FACT that most abortions performed are being done so on repeat customers. If you have to abort more than once in your life - if you did not learn, perhaps YOU should be forcibly sterilized.

I am all for abortion for extreme cases like rape but also simple one time mistakes IF it is before the first trimester. If you choose to abort after the second trimester instead of adopt you are a monster simply put.

It is illogical to hold someone accountable and then to remove accountability because they might make a choice your not on board with. Illogical and quite offensive actually.

It is , in fact , illogical to condone or support in any way - a person with a proven track record of bad decision making ... making life and death decisions . It is illogical and maybe even dumb to do so .

Pro choice :
That guy cute ?
Kiss ?
Time alone ?
Sex ? Condom ?

Lots of choices already made by a person who doesn't want to be pregnant .
A fool would support further decision making by such a person.
Supporting a life or death decision by such a genius - is exploitive and cheapening for everyone involved . Dumb .

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: SearchLightsInc

That being said, if a woman is mainly responsible for allowing herself to get pregnant, why then can she not be deemed responsible enough to make decisions about that pregnancy?

Many people don't consider it a decision about a pregnancy, but a choice to commit premeditated murder. Personally, I see both sides of the argument, but I lean towards considering it a murder.

ETA: Also, after becoming a parent myself, I don't see how anyone could kill a potential child.

Where you lean on the issue is your choice and I respect that either way. However the question still remains, how can you hold someone accountable and then not trust them to make an adult decision about the situation? It's like being treated like a child who needs to have their mistakes taken care of by an all knowing adult.

Either people acknowledge that a woman is responsible for her sexual organs and give her the freedom to make decisions about those organs or they acknowledge she has no responsibility and can have no say over her own body.

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
Not to be crude but if a mans $&$& fell off if he accidentaly got a girl pregnant, he would probably wear a condom. Keeping in mind personal responsibility.
Don't take this as saying men have no duties to undertake concerning the baby.

As for abortion, anybody that thinks aborting an 8 month old fetus is not murder has a screw loose.
How about meeting in the middle. No abortions after the first trimester and making adoption easy after that with the adoptive parents paying the medical costs..

You have completely avoided answering the illogical argument stated in the OP, when you answer that, I will engage with you about your quoted comment above.

Many people feel abortion is murder. Maybe they don't feel comfortable giving you permission to commit said murder.
If that doesn't answer your question please rephrase the question so I can have a better idea how to answer it.

originally posted by: Bazart

It is illogical to hold someone accountable and then to remove accountability because they might make a choice your not on board with. Illogical and quite offensive actually.

It is , in fact , illogical to condone or support in any way - a person with a proven track record of bad decision making ... making life and death decisions . It is illogical and maybe even dumb to do so .

Pro choice :
That guy cute ?
Kiss ?
Time alone ?
Sex ? Condom ?

Lots of choices already made by a person who doesn't want to be pregnant .
A fool would support further decision making by such a person.
Supporting a life or death decision by such a genius - is exploitive and cheapening for everyone involved . Dumb .

Yet you still hold them accountable over the track record of poor decision making??

Don't be coy. It's a fallacy to say "you spilt the milk but I can't trust you to clean it up, your to stupid to know how to deal with it"

As a woman, I do think a lot of the responsibility to not get pregnant rests with us. If I don't want to get pregnant, then it is incumbent on me to do what I can to avoid that. Sure, it may mean not having sex which is great fun and feels awesome, but if I can't find a partner who is sympathetic enough to my profound desire to not be pregnant to either acquiesce to my desire for him to use some basic protection in addition to my own precautions, then I ought not be hooking up with him. And if he's not someone I can see myself dealing with for a possible 18 years if I do get pregnant, then I have no business hooking up with him.

And if I get pregnant, I need to realize that I'm not just making decisions for myself and my convenience anymore. I have to consider that whether I like it or not, there is another life to consider. At the very least, I better not be hooking up unless I'm willing to see the potential consequences through and either be a mother or give my child up to someone who can be a mother.

And I'm sure my attitude on this comes in part from my faith, but long before my faith really kicked in on this one something else that was profound happened to me: I met my husband. My husband is the son of a 16-year-old, unwed mother who could have aborted him but chose to give him up for adoption instead. When I think about how easy it would have been for her to make the selfish decision ending the life of the man who has been my constant partner and great love now for nearly 20 years ... I sometimes want to cry because I then realize how many other children never have the chance to grow up and mean as much to other people as my husband has gotten then chance to mean to me.

No husband. No son. No life. How much I'd have missed out on.

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: SearchLightsInc

That being said, if a woman is mainly responsible for allowing herself to get pregnant, why then can she not be deemed responsible enough to make decisions about that pregnancy?

Many people don't consider it a decision about a pregnancy, but a choice to commit premeditated murder. Personally, I see both sides of the argument, but I lean towards considering it a murder.

ETA: Also, after becoming a parent myself, I don't see how anyone could kill a potential child.

Where you lean on the issue is your choice and I respect that either way. However the question still remains, how can you hold someone accountable and then not trust them to make an adult decision about the situation? It's like being treated like a child who needs to have their mistakes taken care of by an all knowing adult.

Either people acknowledge that a woman is responsible for her sexual organs and give her the freedom to make decisions about those organs or they acknowledge she has no responsibility and can have no say over her own body.

Maybe I understand the question now.
Everything you have said is about your body and your rights, what you haven't mentioned is the child's body and rights. Until you understand that many people believe that the baby has rights to, you will never understand their position.when the baby has rights is the crux of the matter.

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
Not to be crude but if a mans $&$& fell off if he accidentaly got a girl pregnant, he would probably wear a condom. Keeping in mind personal responsibility.
Don't take this as saying men have no duties to undertake concerning the baby.

As for abortion, anybody that thinks aborting an 8 month old fetus is not murder has a screw loose.
How about meeting in the middle. No abortions after the first trimester and making adoption easy after that with the adoptive parents paying the medical costs..

You have completely avoided answering the illogical argument stated in the OP, when you answer that, I will engage with you about your quoted comment above.

Many people feel abortion is murder. Maybe they don't feel comfortable giving you permission to commit said murder.
If that doesn't answer your question please rephrase the question so I can have a better idea how to answer it.

Okay, the question is:

If your holding a woman accountable for her pregnancy, then your practically acknowledging that she, as an individual, has sole responsibility over her sexual organs - coz no one else got her pregnant right?

So if that's the case, who is anyone to then step in after the fact and remove her decision making from the equation? If it's her fault it's not yours (or the States responsibility) to weigh in on her options. You can't tell her to keep it or can it - it's not your problem.

Yet although she is deemed responsible for her own body she is not allowed to make choices over her own body...

It's a paradigm, don't you think?

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
Not to be crude but if a mans $&$& fell off if he accidentaly got a girl pregnant, he would probably wear a condom. Keeping in mind personal responsibility.
Don't take this as saying men have no duties to undertake concerning the baby.

As for abortion, anybody that thinks aborting an 8 month old fetus is not murder has a screw loose.
How about meeting in the middle. No abortions after the first trimester and making adoption easy after that with the adoptive parents paying the medical costs..

You have completely avoided answering the illogical argument stated in the OP, when you answer that, I will engage with you about your quoted comment above.

Many people feel abortion is murder. Maybe they don't feel comfortable giving you permission to commit said murder.
If that doesn't answer your question please rephrase the question so I can have a better idea how to answer it.

Okay, the question is:

If your holding a woman accountable for her pregnancy, then your practically acknowledging that she, as an individual, has sole responsibility over her sexual organs - coz no one else got her pregnant right?

So if that's the case, who is anyone to then step in after the fact and remove her decision making from the equation? If it's her fault it's not yours (or the States responsibility) to weigh in on her options. You can't tell her to keep it or can it - it's not your problem.

Yet although she is deemed responsible for her own body she is not allowed to make choices over her own body...

It's a paradigm, don't you think?

Only if you consider the fetus part of your sexual organs.

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: SearchLightsInc

That being said, if a woman is mainly responsible for allowing herself to get pregnant, why then can she not be deemed responsible enough to make decisions about that pregnancy?

Many people don't consider it a decision about a pregnancy, but a choice to commit premeditated murder. Personally, I see both sides of the argument, but I lean towards considering it a murder.

ETA: Also, after becoming a parent myself, I don't see how anyone could kill a potential child.

Where you lean on the issue is your choice and I respect that either way. However the question still remains, how can you hold someone accountable and then not trust them to make an adult decision about the situation? It's like being treated like a child who needs to have their mistakes taken care of by an all knowing adult.

Either people acknowledge that a woman is responsible for her sexual organs and give her the freedom to make decisions about those organs or they acknowledge she has no responsibility and can have no say over her own body.

Maybe I understand the question now.
Everything you have said is about your body and your rights, what you haven't mentioned is the child's body and rights. Until you understand that many people believe that the baby has rights to, you will never understand their position.when the baby has rights is the crux of the matter.

No, when the majority can agree when a potential human being gains rights then we can start discussing the potential human.

The facts are that the potential mother is a human being and actually does have rights that clearly need to be discussed and understood by pro lifers IMO.

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
Not to be crude but if a mans $&$& fell off if he accidentaly got a girl pregnant, he would probably wear a condom. Keeping in mind personal responsibility.
Don't take this as saying men have no duties to undertake concerning the baby.

As for abortion, anybody that thinks aborting an 8 month old fetus is not murder has a screw loose.
How about meeting in the middle. No abortions after the first trimester and making adoption easy after that with the adoptive parents paying the medical costs..

You have completely avoided answering the illogical argument stated in the OP, when you answer that, I will engage with you about your quoted comment above.

Many people feel abortion is murder. Maybe they don't feel comfortable giving you permission to commit said murder.
If that doesn't answer your question please rephrase the question so I can have a better idea how to answer it.

Okay, the question is:

If your holding a woman accountable for her pregnancy, then your practically acknowledging that she, as an individual, has sole responsibility over her sexual organs - coz no one else got her pregnant right?

So if that's the case, who is anyone to then step in after the fact and remove her decision making from the equation? If it's her fault it's not yours (or the States responsibility) to weigh in on her options. You can't tell her to keep it or can it - it's not your problem.

Yet although she is deemed responsible for her own body she is not allowed to make choices over her own body...

It's a paradigm, don't you think?

Only if you consider the fetus part of your sexual organs.

While it is developing within the woman's sexual organs then, for that period of time, it must be deemed a natural part of them, no?

Still clearly her responsibility because she got herself pregnant?

a reply to: SearchLightsInc

My last line was "when" the baby has rights.
So just for #s and giggles when do you feel the baby has rights?
Myself being an atheist and having low moral standards (being a blasphemer) lol..
I feel the first trimester is a good happy middle ground but what do I know, how bout you?