Women's and men's rights- thoughts and observations

The subject of sexism in our society, and women's rights is one that is predominant in my life right now, from every direction. Not only am I deeply involved in a personal situation which pertains, but I get in my car and hear a debate upon it this morning, I come home and see my son watching a report on it on TV.

This spurs me to write out my thoughts on the subject, and I have lots to say…. I do not want to hijack another thread on the subject.

I use my situation as an example, because it is through real life situations that I learn, and they aid a bit with illustrating concepts.

My position is that women and men have the same rights, but that there is a lot of misunderstanding between them which cause obstacles. Their minds do not work the same way, and they expect certain results from specific actions which do not work out as expected.

I work in a environment which seems very sexist at first glance. I am a cook in a hospital, and the kitchen staff hold various positions, of different status. The lowest being ones of mostly cleaning and sanitation- you can imagine that in a hospital, everything has to be constantly sterilized and cleaned, even more so than a restaurant.

What we have is an almost all female staff doing cleaning and almost all male doing cooking- and being of higher level of responsibility. Despite there being two female cooks, people automatically refer to each group as “the guys” or “the girls”. The Chef du cuisine is a man.

I was able to climb that ladder extremely fast- enough so to attract a lot of jealousy and animosity from the other women I passed up- some who have been there a long time. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have started some silly rumor that I slept with the boss, considering they cannot figure out how to get over that “glass ceiling” themselves any other way.

Yesterday in talking with a woman who has been there several months, has many years of experience as a cook, and is still stuck in the lowest level, she expressed her confusion at her situation and that the chef is a sexist pig.

I shared with her what I learned from observation. She is also a foreigner (Spanish) and is very good at learning from observation and adapting to her environment- but she hasn’t a man in her life, and frankly I think having been married to one for over 20 years gave me some advantage in understanding masculine thought.

It can be observed that his attitude is typically seen in males- that the women are doing the best they possibly can (bless their heart) and the men can do better (they have more potential than they are actually putting into practice).

The women continually hope to get his attention and respect through trying to do their job with dedication and obvious effort. He walks by, and they are on their knees scrubbing something energetically, going above and beyond duty, and they think he will be appreciative of that and consider her as someone that would put the same effort into even more responsible work.

They do not get why the guy starting at the same position who nonchalantly does half-assed spraying down and walking away gets the promotion!

Men’s minds focus on self affirmation, showing what you are by what you do. Not whether you are someone who works hard in general, but what is your individual skill and interest. The guy who did the half assed cleaning affirms “I am not a janitor. I am interested in other jobs.”. The woman on her hands and knees affirms “This is my calling and skill- scrubbing sh%t. I love it.”

Men focus on individual choice, not general traits. That is what the boss reads. Even guys with no experience but who see themselves projected into higher positions will get there first, and the boss considers they will learn , they can be molded, their potential can be pulled out of them with some pressure. The interplay of opposition between superior and inferior is an important part of the masculine mentality.

The person who is trying so hard will most likely not be able to handle the pressure- being yelled at for a mistake will probably make them fall apart, because their efforts are already using all their emotional energy. They are too fragile to mold quickly. That’s a negative too.

The women who complain about the men being unfair, using crude language and hitting below the belt… taking advantage of any weakness they can find to push you out of the game doesn’t understand- that is what men DO. That is what they do with each other. That is what happens in nature when two males come into contact. That is what they will do with any female that wishes to experience her masculine side in that arena.

That is the game. That is not reserved only for women. And women who choose to jump into it, (I think) shouldn’t try to change the game , because then it would not longer be an effective environment for developing the masculine part of themselves.


I watched three men this morning meet in the middle of a grocery store parking lot, each with a stroller in hand, and toddlers dancing around them. I wondered- how are they seeing this. Do they get together to gossip, and work out together what they will teach their children is socially acceptable and what isn’t ? Do they use others as examples and judge the ethics and morals of each, and debate them?

Or did they tell of each others most recent exploits and achievements, each subtly trying to outdo the other, in a that masculine dance of competition? If they remain in their masculine thought, they risk being frustrated, as being a house dad sort of limits your ability to do big conquests and constructions. I know a man who tried to hang himself after years of being a housedad raising kids, while struggling to keep up his image of a masculinity at the same time.

Choice. If you want to experience the other side of yourself (for we each have both) then go all the way and try to know it intimately, without fear. Engage yourself completely in your choice!

If you can’t embrace and see the value in that cutthroat world of individualism, or if you can’t embrace and see the value in the world of conformism and collectivism, then you probably shouldn’t step in them. Because you’ll be at war within yourself- and project that outward as something “wrong” outside.

a reply to: Bluesma

I was told years ago that my eyes in the primordial past Erh! were focussed on the horizon looking for prey and danger in order to protect or feed the tribe. So I miss the smaller close-up things and was tossed a copy of Desmond Morrisonm's Manwatching to read in order to get my sad-assed manly side into family man. We are still married and happy (since I last looked) but she did make me understand a lot of the differences - but then we compliment each other is my excuse when I still get it wrong.

Interesting to hear it from another female and I would say you are pretty much on top of things.

a reply to: Bluesma

The problem I have always had with "sexism" (and I may get flamed for this) is that, especially with women, it seems to be selective. I.E. "Why should I do the Ironing? Is it because I'm a woman"? I am then expected to carry the shopping and do all the DIY because I am a man.

It seems sexism against men is a lot more prevalent, however it is generally accepted. and therefore not talked about.

Also, women who wear next to nothing and then moan that all men are perverts.

what's that about?

a reply to: Briles1207

I wear next to a lot, and men are still trying to "spread their seed"
Seriously, sexism is a form of racism, which is nothing but xenophobia. There are very femalish guys and very manish ladies, how do they fit? Everybody is unique and your sexuality is nothing but a dot on a scale, it also varies during your monthly- or lifetime-cycles. Or so I hope unless, your biological development is just as stuck as your mental one seems to be. Grow up, dude

a reply to: Peeple

Ok so when Men look at women its perverted, but when women look at men its endearing?

When have you ever heard a woman be called a pervert?

Perhaps sexism is being used under the guise of "gender stereotyping".

Also, are you telling me to grow up? Or was that a 3rd person swipe at people who are sexist?

nothing you have said negates the fact that we live in a society where women need to have the same earning potential as men and holding them back because of preconceived notions is harming not only the women involved but society as a whole!
and the idea that we can chose not to step into the ring and play the game isn't true! We have no choice it's either that or watch our family go without things that are needed!
and as a person who has worked very hard in the jobs I was assigned and watched as men who spent their time running to the coffee pot every hour on the hour or just hang around gabbing with their friends while you did their part of the job as well as my own got to tell ya I didn't appreciate t he fact that they got the higher pay and better jobs.

and gee maybe if I had gotten an equal chance maybe I could still be working but well what can I say going without the healthcare that was needed has left me in a position where I just can't do the work anymore

and I wasn't going blow two or three years of my pay on medical bills just to walk away in the same position I was in to begin with.. when I came to the conclusion that the health problems that was being cause by the job was costing more every year than I was making I decided it was more profitable not to work!
and I will never work that hard again and be in that much pain unless that job is paying a living wage!

I was told point blank after I got out of college that I wouldn't get any job while there were so many men applying for the same job the men had a family to support the women had a husband to support her or danged well should have!

justify it all you want anyway you want. but I kind of find it offensive that my family's money is being taken from us just so those low paid women can have their childcare free of charge so they can work at jobs that don't cover that childcare expense!!!

go ahead and justify it! just know that I would rather starve and be a homeless vagrant before I am going to pay for the side effects of it! the cost to me is too great!
have fun paying the taxes for the childcare
the housing
the food
heck even the transportation cost so that the employers can play their game!!!

a reply to: Bluesma

My feeling is that it should only be about HUMAN rights. Gender shouldn't even be part of the equation. We all deserve to be equal. If that will ever happen, I don't know. But, we are a lot closer than we were 200, 100, heck, even 50 years ago...at least that's something, right? Rome wasn't built in a day, I suppose.

originally posted by: Briles1207
a reply to: Bluesma

The problem I have always had with "sexism" (and I may get flamed for this) is that, especially with women, it seems to be selective. I.E. "Why should I do the Ironing? Is it because I'm a woman"? I am then expected to carry the shopping and do all the DIY because I am a man.

This is just my opinion, based upon my own experience, your mileage may vary-
Long term coupling has a huge benefit for both, as a way to aquaint yourself with the "other" side of yourself (opposite your physical gender). As is natural, each will put pressure on the other to understand their side and develop it. She will put pressure on you to step into the behaviors and mindsets that are typically "feminine". If you can learn to see the beauty and appreciation in those, then the pressure has been successful.

If you can't then the partnership is a fail, in my book. But the process can take many years, so declaration of fail or success is not necessary right away! Do you put pressure on her to know the world of men? To support a family financially, and compete aggressively in the business world? (and learn the beauty in it?)

Also, women who wear next to nothing and then moan that all men are perverts.

what's that about?

Women don't get the visual affirmation you guys look for! A guy carries around a hammer, he expects people to assume he is into carpentry and looking for opportunities to do it.

Women don't see that way- perhaps the guy was just bringing the hammer to someone else, or perhaps he was going to throw it away, or use it to open a can, because he can't find the can opener, or because he is a bit paranoid and keeps it with him as a defensive weapon, etc. The possibilities are endless in their mind, so no such assumption is made. They often do things they don't want to do, to serve another, to help another, as part of their duty or responsibility, or as a step to a different goal, why would they assume you like and want to do carpentry just because you carry a hammer???

Likewise, wearing a low cut dress does not express to the world that they want to attract others to fondle their breast, it is not necessarily mean they are looking for opportunities to have sex. They may wear it for other reasons- the pressure and influence of current fashion, the pleasure of feeling the air on their skin, the desire to be perceived as sexy and beautiful, without actually wanting to use those qualities in action.... They expect guys to be aware of the many different possibilities in their heart and not assume. They don't get the simplicity of mens "I desire to do this, and I go looking for it, making it obvious and visible to others what I am intending to do."

It is, in my opinion, a lack of comprehension, that's all.

a reply to: Briles1207

Not to stir the pot here, but, I have a friend who I call a pervert pretty much on a daily basis. My friend is a woman. In my experience women can be just as perverted as men...sometimes more so. I think we just tend to go about it in a more covert way...What I mean is, for a lot of women, we're taught from a young age that sexual desire is bad, and we're shamed for it. Men on the other hand, for the most part, don't suffer the same stigma, around other males anyway.

Is it right that you're called a pervert for noticing a scantily clad woman? Absolutely not....I think it only becomes "bad" when said woman is then objectified based on what she is wearing...or isn't wearing as the case may be. No, it's not fair but I suppose you just have to chalk it up to one of those double standards that make zero sense.

originally posted by: dawnstar
and the idea that we can chose not to step into the ring and play the game isn't true! We have no choice it's either that or watch our family go without things that are needed!

You have no choice because you and those around you have a a repulsion to collectively supporting families with financial aid. "Each man and woman for themselves" makes it obligatory. You are holding two opposing desires here, which cause the difficulty.

and as a person who has worked very hard in the jobs I was assigned and watched as men who spent their time running to the coffee pot every hour on the hour or just hang around gabbing with their friends while you did their part of the job as well as my own got to tell ya I didn't appreciate t he fact that they got the higher pay and better jobs.

I bet you didn't! So why did you do it? Why do something repeatedly that you see does not create the results you desire?
When do you acknowledge the fact that your idea of how the game works is mistaken?
Life is all just a bunch of stages, with various plays going on, and they each have their structure and storyline.

and gee maybe if I had gotten an equal chance maybe I could still be working but well what can I say going without the healthcare that was needed has left me in a position where I just can't do the work anymore

-Or if you had stopped trying to play an ill-adapted role for your environment, perhaps you wouldn't have become unable to perform anymore (with no knowledge of the health problems you refer to, but going on your suggestion it was because of working so hard...).

Or if you had voted for laws and politicians who support social aids and medicine, perhaps you could have gotten the healthcare you needed? Or if you moved to a "stage" (country) which had such a form.

I was told point blank after I got out of college that I wouldn't get any job while there were so many men applying for the same job the men had a family to support the women had a husband to support her or danged well should have!

-And you folded? You believed it?? That is the male challenge- look for the weak spots and fears and punch there.
My husband quit his job, with a foriegn non-working wife, and three small children, and a mortgage, to go to medical school. He was told by the admitting council that he was crazy- those competing with him were already going on a couple years of medical school, young and without families. He could not handle the pressure, living an hour away, with only a scooter to get there, and the family at home. No way. There was much laughter.

He answered the challenge and his anger and dedication to his own goals fueled him to prove that bastard wrong. He not only got in, and rode the scooter each day, often in snow, and barely saw his kids for a year, but he graduated first in his class and was the first to be grabbed up for a great job.

Those challenges are part of the male world, and they are meant to stir up your fighting edge. This is why a dad will often have a tendancy to be more negative with a child than positive- you are MEANT to prove them wrong! They hope you will!

a reply to: U4ea82

I agree that gender roles are imperative to a successful relationship. I just feel that sometimes when women are sexist towards men its is deemed jovial but viser versa and you end up in court :-)

Such is life I guess. Pre-judging anyone based on something which cannot be helped is wrong but I understand why humans do it. If you look at a photo of a stranger. You will in your own mind, automatically assume a number of things about them based on appearance alone. That is built up by your collective experiences. It is your brain pooling its resources to build a picture of something that you have no way of actually knowing.

Racism, sexism ageism and any other sort of ism is only offensive if intended to be, however your brain will always try and put people in groups. Its a natural response.

i'll bet $1000 that a woman will yell at me in 4 hrs!

So, I'm wondering - did you move up so fast in your job because you refused to work hard at the lower levels (as you saw the men doing)? No judgments here - just curious as to whether the boss would have the same reaction to a woman refusing to to scrub as they would to a man who refused to scrub.

You have no choice because you and those around you have a a repulsion to collectively supporting families with financial aid. "Each man and woman for themselves" makes it obligatory. You are holding two opposing desires here, which cause the difficulty.

a reply to: Bluesma

I suppose my husband should have not reached his potential and continued in the job he enjoyed and take a lower paid wage so we could have enjoyed that financial aid instead??? or maybe he was supposed to kill himself working two jobs??
just so some in our society can continue on with their bias and belief system..

I bet you didn't! So why did you do it? Why do something repeatedly that you see does not create the results you desire? When do you acknowledge the fact that your idea of how the game works is mistaken? Life is all just a bunch of stages, with various plays going on, and they each have their structure and storyline.

---------------------

-Or if you had stopped trying to play an ill-adapted role for your environment, perhaps you wouldn't have become unable to perform anymore (with no knowledge of the health problems you refer to, but going on your suggestion it was because of working so hard...).

umm what??? why work hard at my job when I find that it's not getting me anywhere??? umm I don't know maybe because I kind of feel that that was part of the employment contract. you know I do the best possible job I can and the boss agrees to pay me so much. why work the job I was doing?? gee I don't know. A mother of three with a husband working one sift who can't make enough to pay for the child care because well, why should they pay me more when the gov't just demanded all those working single moms out there to work while agreeing to pay their childcare has their choices limited considerably and one can't be picky!
and I was good at my job by the way even when I was falling down occassionally on the job there was nothing to complain about when it came to that nor did I miss much work because of it!

Or if you had voted for laws and politicians who support social aids and medicine, perhaps you could have gotten the healthcare you needed? Or if you moved to a "stage" (country) which had such a form.

and...just how in hades name do you know how I vote?? I am pretty sure you don't! you keep bringing up social systems as the answer to all the problems. well here in america all those social systems have done was create more needy people while putting money in the politicians' buddies pockets allowing them to exploit the systems to death!!!
and just how do you propose someone who skipping meals every other day just to make sure the rest of the family has enough is supposed to move to another country??

-And you folded? You believed it?? That is the male challenge- look for the weak spots and fears and punch there.

no that was a fact of life in east tx during the recession in the reagan years and was told to me by both men and women.

I don't care where you look in history you will find women who had to work!
either the men refused to
or the man couldn't earn enough
or the men died
whatever! they had to work
society shouldn't be treating the few that can live in mansions with the servants waiting on them hand in foot as the norm! or the few that can be at home tending to home and hearth for 24 hours a day while living comfortably. it should have the idea that yes women have to work to support families also and therefore should have equal opportunity when it comes to advancement and pay!

And the fact that I had to work 40 hours a week, live on 4 hours of sleep 5 of the 7 days a week, come home to dinners that need to be cooked, kids that needed help with the homework, house that needed to be kept up, just so my family could have what they need while the single moms all around me stayed home, had time to enjoy life, could open their windows in the middle of winter to air the place out while I froze in mine because we couldn't afford the bills... just to be denied help when I needed it to keep working well..
that just makes me sick!!!
na they couldn't work!! they had kids to care for! who would bring little johnny to baseball practice! blah blah blah!!
we were both working our arses off!
well now I can't work, because I couldn't afford the medical care and chose not to run up a ton of medical bills I couldn't afford I can't get disability. and well, as far as I am concerned. it's a man's world let the man work his tail off. let the economy go splat on the ground for all I care. society couldn't contribute a little bit to help me when I need it the most I sure the heck contributing to it anymore!

ya there may be difference between men and women but those differences shouldn't mean that a person has to live in proverty because a women has to work to support the family.

Most promotions and decisions are made out of the office. So for woman that aren't interested in golf or whatever then men are doing to relax, that's the disadvantage.

Your situation comes across as more than sexism. I won't say the word, look around and see who has the higher paying positions.

a reply to: Briles1207

no one is a bigger pervert than I am. I am just lucky people can't hear my thoughts when I look at them. So I sure as hell didn't want to offend you.

Great insite's into the male mind! One thing ladies are good at is psychological warfare, the best one being "well if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you" also, after spending almost as long as a women to get ready for the big night out
"your not wearing that are you?" 'yes I know I look good enough to eat' "but I have a headache" the list is endless.

I don't support any aspect of our world, in how its run by demons basically. Their job is to be "destroyer" and they want to dump the karma on us. While the very few may see the inner and start to grow past. They think the Universe allows this and Higher Ups don't care, not realizing the entire existence will pause for one mosquito sliding downhill, if it has a soul/consciousness and work with it until its home and huge.

They leaders don't know what love is even, and consequently they are making train wrecks of their mismanagement positions. Because they were supposed to be wayshowers and assist.

In any case, I renounce anyone working as a slave.

Now a different world would be one where everyone has training, and can retrain endlessly, without fighting tooth and nail for positions and with all the timeouts needed for children, family and health, with technology taking on harder tasks and people sharing positions part time, like volunteering to contribute. So in your hospital, men and women would take turns doing some shifts for the good of the community.

There would be no money, no real estate agents, but very progressed, intelligent and advanced problem solving citizens who would take turns running councils and making fair and loving decisions, with abundance and homes for all, and progressed clean technology, space age and colonies, we'd be closer to grown ups.

And because anything other than what I'm saying is slavery, control, fascism, and therefore EVIL BEYOND, just wait for people to grow up.

But I wouldn't be giving excuses for the misogyny of the men making those decisions. It shouldn't be in some mans hand but in a councils hands with lots of positions and part time shifts for those who wish to train up some skills. Without slavery, to contribute to a decent progressed world.

Anyway, I personally think that men overlooking women like that are at a very high risk for coming back in those positions since karma is how they run this lower system, it takes seeing through karma, to bypass it, and that means you'd be aware of things, aware of others, communicating with them and respecting what they're doing and not rewarding the lazy bums who want to promote themselves over the hard working.

I think you are looking at it wrong a bit in that you blow it all to sexism when its not entirely but also right in some ways. It could either be coincidence or they simply are expecting less of the males at 'traditionally female' work. When expecting less of someone and they do quite well its seen as more. If a female is seen as expected to be well at something then its expected and not as much a surprise. So you shoulda been lazy at start then showed more motivation later to show a build up of progress that makes it looks like you were getting better at work. People want to reward people for getting better rather than having what is perceived as built in skills because they are happy to see improvement and determination. Its a flaw in peoples psychology.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
So, I'm wondering - did you move up so fast in your job because you refused to work hard at the lower levels (as you saw the men doing)? No judgments here - just curious as to whether the boss would have the same reaction to a woman refusing to to scrub as they would to a man who refused to scrub.

The question is a good one, and the first thing my spanish friend asked.
Ay first I was doing like the other women- I too, figured that showing my dedication to whatever I had to do with lots of effort would be recognized.

As I observed what I described, the first thing I did was ask a question, during a meeting of evaluation, (where he told me they were very happy with my work and had no complaints whatsoever). At the end, he said, do you have any questions? Or complaints, or whatever???

Yes, I said- I would like to know, if you are so pleased with me, why I have repeated small contracts; while I see people (refering to the men) who do such shabby work, with such a bad attitude, have much longer contracts and positions??

I am not sure he understood my direction there, that I was asking what exactly do you want from me? Should I do like them, to get the same sort of contract?

Because he replied, oh but, what they don't tell you is how I get on their asses in here! How they get yelled at and face consequences! Don't think they are getting away with it!

I found this confusing. I had to let it sit for a while in my mind to digest. I realized they were afraid of putting that kind of pressure on me, thinking I was perhaps too fragile and already working myself to my maximum potential.

I did not stop doing the crappy work, but I stopped doing it with as much zest and sweat. I began to move slower, and be more relaxed, making my movements as efficient as possible, so that I could not spend as much energy. This conveyed self confidence. As I saw that some of the men could literally wave off, or even argue with the boss when he pointed out something to them, and he would shut up and act respectful, I began to do the same thing. He'd say, "that isn't done according to protocal" I'd say, "Yes, but, in this situation, there was this complication, which required me to adapt in response and do things differently." And I would go about my business without further concern for his opinion.

If there was a logistics or planning problem, I would jump in with possible solutions, showing interest in other parts of the operation than the lowest.



I once read a study that found more female students apply themselves at school with lots of studying and organization, while boys take more time for play and relaxation. Yet, there test results come out either the same, or the boys doing slightly better! The conclusion was that females put too much pressure on themselves, so actually burn out or stress so much it makes them unable to deal with the added pressure of tests at the end.

If you are working to hard where you are now, that conveys that if you were handed even more pressure and responsibility, you would crack.

If you don't show some ability to protect your own well being, and pick out what you will and won't do according to priority, (instead of trying to fulfil unreasonable commands) than you don't look to them to be capable of autonomy.


We women are more likely to hope someone will notice how hard we are trying, and force us to take a rest from our duties, instead of just making that judgement ourselves and doing it.