Meet God, the art-nazi

3 ‘You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 ‘You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Nothing better than context and sheer bloody mindedness.

Your quote is quote mining and so ridiculous it beggars belief.

Look at the stick with the snake on it, Numbers 21;9 that Moses made.

The context is worshiping what is created by man,.
I cant believe you have taken something so simple and created a belief that is so spposite from it.

You are worse than the religious people of Christs time.

a reply to: borntowatch

Let me tell you a little thing about the context of the second commandment. Resting on millennia of rabbinical discourse, the second commandment forbids idols. According to the Midrash, the second commandment corresponds to the seventh: "You shall not commit adultery", idolatry makes God jealous. What turns an object into an idol or not is all about circumstance, a 2000 year old rusty nail can be both an idol of worship or a useless nail you'd toss away. It's all about what humans turn it into. But God is rather strict and says, and this is plain and straightforward, mind you, and doesn't really leave much room for discussion: "Don't make naturalistic art", and secondly, as if to further narrowing the gap: "Don't worship art". And the reasoning is that it makes God jealous, just as a husband or a wife could become jealous if the other one had an affair with the person living next door.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: borntowatch

Let me tell you a little thing about the context of the second commandment. Resting on millennia of rabbinical discourse, the second commandment forbids idols. According to the Midrash, the second commandment corresponds to the seventh: "You shall not commit adultery", idolatry makes God jealous. What turns an object into an idol or not is all about circumstance, a 2000 year old rusty nail can be both an idol of worship or a useless nail you'd toss away. It's all about what humans turn it into. But God is rather strict and says, and this is plain and straightforward, mind you, and doesn't really leave much room for discussion: "Don't make naturalistic art", and secondly, as if to further narrowing the gap: "Don't worship art". And the reasoning is that it makes God jealous, just as a husband or a wife could become jealous if the other one had an

And let me tell you something about the context of the second commandment.
Idols are things that are made to be worshipped.

Creating (Creation, made in the image of God we are creators) is not a sin, worshipping the created is a sin..

The context of the opening post is ludicrous, completely out of context and nothing more than an attempt to pour scorn on believers.

Creating naturalistic art is fine, worshipping it, not so.

Try common sense and then exegesis.

a reply to: borntowatch

Try common sense and then exegesis.

Did you know that wars were fought over this issue? Byzantine Iconoclasm History suggests that the 1st and 2nd commandment aren't as straight forward and simplistic as you make it out to be. As a matter fact, none of them are.

Also, it happens, that at the time in the history of the Hebrews, when Moses supposedly was given the Ten Commandments, the Hebrews were polytheist. They believed in many gods. This new edict was difficult for them to fathom, and caused many wars within the Hebrews' nations and tribes themselves.

Further, the Biblical God contradicts himself and his commandments all over the place.

And, look at how early Christians criminalized "Judaizers"! Making resting on the 7th day , for example, or participating in any of the Jubilee feasts, a serious crime for Christians.

I find it humorous how modern Christians embrace and defend the 10 Commandments, but don't buy into them, and then use apologetics to defend their hypocrisy!

originally posted by: borntowatch
Try common sense and then exegesis.

I'll keep that in mind.

Meanwhile, in Russia: www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: borntowatch

Try common sense and then exegesis.

wars were fought over this issue

When the Churches started popping up from the ground in the first few centuries AD, it didn't take long until the art loving Greeks and Romans got rid of the "Idol-problem" in the Torah and Judaism, only to burst out like some Iron Age Miley Cyrus, turning idol worship into an epic artform of unmatched proportions, and turned idols and idolatry into core sacraments and a basis in all church liturgy, and, like in the story of emperor Constantine ("In hoc signo vinces"), also a matter of life or death, victory or loss-- in their new religion, Christianity.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

only to burst out like some Iron Age Miley Cyrus,

LOL! Totally!

a reply to: windword

Unlike lovely Miley, the Church enforced the ten commandments on Europe (and still do, infact). Miley Cyrus is an angel compared to the smut Church. The church has shed the blood of saints and prophets, for this Jesus made them serve blood for drinks for frigs sake. What a bite!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: borntowatch

Try common sense and then exegesis.

Did you know that wars were fought over this issue? Byzantine Iconoclasm History suggests that the 1st and 2nd commandment aren't as straight forward and simplistic as you make it out to be. As a matter fact, none of them are.

Also, it happens, that at the time in the history of the Hebrews, when Moses supposedly was given the Ten Commandments, the Hebrews were polytheist. They believed in many gods. This new edict was difficult for them to fathom, and caused many wars within the Hebrews' nations and tribes themselves.

Further, the Biblical God contradicts himself and his commandments all over the place.

And, look at how early Christians criminalized "Judaizers"! Making resting on the 7th day , for example, or participating in any of the Jubilee feasts, a serious crime for Christians.

I find it humorous how modern Christians embrace and defend the 10 Commandments, but don't buy into them, and then use apologetics to defend their hypocrisy!

Wow, you have a big brush.
I can accept some early Christians may well have been militant. But outside your statement I dont see the evidence.

Then as for contradictions regarding the law, care to actually say what they are or are you just repeating stuff you heard?

Art can be worshipped, or it can be appreciated, there is a distinct line between the tow issues.

And yes there is and always be those who are called Christian who worship idols.
I have some little figures and plastic models that look nice, but I dont worship them. I have pictures on my wall, of scenery and my children. They are not idols, they are pictures.
It sounds like some people are adding to the law.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: borntowatch

Try common sense and then exegesis.

Did you know that wars were fought over this issue? Byzantine Iconoclasm History suggests that the 1st and 2nd commandment aren't as straight forward and simplistic as you make it out to be. As a matter fact, none of them are.

Also, it happens, that at the time in the history of the Hebrews, when Moses supposedly was given the Ten Commandments, the Hebrews were polytheist. They believed in many gods. This new edict was difficult for them to fathom, and caused many wars within the Hebrews' nations and tribes themselves.

Further, the Biblical God contradicts himself and his commandments all over the place.

And, look at how early Christians criminalized "Judaizers"! Making resting on the 7th day , for example, or participating in any of the Jubilee feasts, a serious crime for Christians.

I find it humorous how modern Christians embrace and defend the 10 Commandments, but don't buy into them, and then use apologetics to defend their hypocrisy!

Wow, you have a big brush.
I can accept some early Christians may well have been militant. But outside your statement I dont see the evidence.

I also have read the bible and know many Hebrews and Christians worship/ped many Gods, they still do today. No big revelation, thanks. The law was made to combat a problem,a problem that caused problems in Israel and amongst its people.

Then as for contradictions regarding the law, care to actually say what they are or are you just repeating stuff you heard?

Art can be worshipped, or it can be appreciated, there is a distinct line between the tow issues.

And yes there is and always be those who are called Christian who worship idols.
I have some little figures and plastic models that look nice, but I dont worship them. I have pictures on my wall, of scenery and my children. They are not idols, they are pictures.
It sounds like some people are adding to the law.

a reply to: borntowatch

Wow, you have a big brush.
I can accept some early Christians may well have been militant. But outside your statement I dont see the evidence.

Evidence of what exactly? Evidence of the criminalization of Judaizers?

Then as for contradictions regarding the law, care to actually say what they are or are you just repeating stuff you heard?

I'm pretty sure I already listed a couple, but to reiterate, God says not to kill, then proceeds to lay out all kinds of rules and commands for all kinds of killing. He tells the Hebrews not to covet, and then sends them out to take other people's land. I could go on and on and on.......

Art can be worshipped, or it can be appreciated, there is a distinct line between the tow issues.

Whatever. I don't have a problem with art. But the 1st Commandment clearly does. To say otherwise is intellectual dishonesty.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: borntowatch

Art can be worshipped, or it can be appreciated, there is a distinct line between the tow issues.

Whatever. I don't have a problem with art. But the 1st Commandment clearly does. To say otherwise is intellectual dishonesty.

exactly my line of thought. Since fine arts is worshipped, it's perhaps the only practical function of art-- since fine works of art will sooner or later be worshipped and idolised by some people, God prohibited art and pantheism all together on Mt Horeb, unless of course, the Good Lord gave the instructions, or the pantheon in question was the body of his seven arch angels.

...although, clearly the commandments say nothing about euphemisms...

goodness gracious me!

A99

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sounds like an Alien not wanting humans to record evidence of their visitations.

a reply to: windword

In the US the law states that it is illegal to kill, yet in some states it is legal for the law to kill people.
Is that hypocrisy?
Must be.

In some countrys its illegal to kill but then they send soldiers out with weapons that kill indiscriminately

You know I could go into a long winded post about defending yourself, your country and family.
About the Hebrews taking their land back and God judging the Canaanites, Philistines et all, but it would be wasted.

You have an opinion and its valid, I disagree strongly.

Art can be worshipped, please feel free to worship it. Christians are not bound by the Old Testament law and owning art is not a sin, no matter what you may think Creating art is a signature of the Creator within humanity.
The issue if you cared to read the bible was idol worship, not art.

But go ahead believe what you like.

a reply to: borntowatch

No need to go ad hominem, this is theology, not preaching. You don't have to marry the cow to study it.

Art is an art. And in a way, looking at the church and how it can preach one thing and do the opposite, and on such an epic scale, now that's art, but it's an artform I don't necessarily like! Apologetics and denial, their virgin-mother libido, human sacrifice, coveting and storing immense wealth, the child abuse scandal.... The church is a cesspool stored in magnificent buildings built by enslaved saints, a hooker preaching chastity. If the Pope was a word, he would be an oxymoron.

originally posted by: LightAssassin
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sounds like an Alien not wanting humans to record evidence of their visitations.

That thought has crossed my mind also. Wonder what the halo thing is supposed to illustrate. Helmet comes to mind. And they probably parked their cherubs outside town and hid them before strolling in to meet Abraham to bring the good news: "How do we explain how we got here, guys?" -- "Just tell him we get wings sometimes, Mike, it's not really lying...".

a reply to: borntowatch

In the US the law states that it is illegal to kill, yet in some states it is legal for the law to kill people.
Is that hypocrisy?
Must be.

In some countrys its illegal to kill but then they send soldiers out with weapons that kill indiscriminately

The hypocrisy of men directly mirrors the hypocrisy of the God they have created. Either that, or God has passed down his shortcomings to mankind.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: borntowatch

In the US the law states that it is illegal to kill, yet in some states it is legal for the law to kill people.
Is that hypocrisy?
Must be.

In some countrys its illegal to kill but then they send soldiers out with weapons that kill indiscriminately

The hypocrisy of men directly mirrors the hypocrisy of the God they have created. Either that, or God has passed down his shortcomings to mankind.

If we are to draw any wisdom out of all the bollocks contained in the bible, it's a combination of both. Seeing how he seems to have changed a bit from time of Moses to Jesus, it may look as if he attended some anger management meetings, probably after Babylon and that mess with the Assyrians. He even chose a Persian Messiah in the days of Daniel. I guess anyone could change. Guess there's still some hope and foresight left in the damned jar afterall

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

...or, self-anthropomorphism is the sign of lesser 'gods' (enough clues to follow in any cosmology) 'I am a jealous god'...doesn't sound very Supreme or Almighty...Administrators of the sector were marooned and made incommunicado, those 'gods' (through frustration) were jealous (motive supplied in stories) and altered the original mission statement slightly to reflect their state of being cut-off from central services...upper management types restated original Blue D-ring binder manifesto...art-nazis are not big G god...neither is jealous god big G god, neither is angry god big G god...

A99