Alternative history - The East if Nazi Germany had won

a reply to: Semicollegiate

Not so much.
Even though Barbarossa was not turning out to be the instant success they were expecting it to be.
It was far from horrifying for them.
They were still reasonably successful and had no reason to believe otherwise.

And the United States didn't enter the war until after December 7 1941, or if you want to be precise December 8th 1941.
It's hardly just to include 1941 in your assessment.

Also, as they went into Russia, they were slaughtering Jews.
Which started in June.
Something to the effect of 500,000 as of December.
And the effect on the police of shooting women and children caused other methods to be investigated.
Which inspired Wannsee Conference, the death camps, and the Final Solution.

Hitler often talked about killing the Jews before then though.

a reply to: HarbingerOfShadows

You are correct, at the neurembourg war crime's trial's the former commandant of Auschwitze when asked how many people had been killed at the camp under his tenure (there was another commandant after him) estimated (or remembered as the German's were meticulous book keepers) that 2.5 million had been killed there under his watch, this was only one death camp and the final charge against the NAZI's was down estimated to the number we know today but remember that the NAZI invasion caused massive record's loss in many nations and they also had those census and record's taken for there own use in tracking down the Jew's, Gypsy's and others that they found undesirable in there idiology.

This mean's the real death toll was probably far higher than that tought in school today but they could not prove those people who they could not find record of and so stook with the downgraded figure's as the where more reliable.

When Ghengis Khan took the chinese capital it is estimated that about four million people were slaughtered and a contemporary account tell's of how the street's ran with the fat of burning people and were slippery, so hitler and his bunch were not the first nor were they the last, so many people died under the mongol expansion that the earth's climate cooled and it is hypethised that this may be due to less cooking fire's though was probably a climate fluctuation, however they did wipe entire races and cultures off the map, great city's were leveled and farm land's turned to stepp, when they past into mesopotamia they smashed the ancient irrigation cannal's and even today much of Iraq that was then fertile green farm land is now desert.

The jewish people had always been outsider's and clung to there own community haveing learned to survive pogrom after pogrom, so when the germans after the first world war had to pay reperation's thing's got so bad that people were starving to death in germany, they killed there cart horses for food but Adolf hitler who was a house painter found the wealthy (Minority not all were) jewish people who had hoarded there wealth living well while the german's where starving and this helped to stoke his maniacal hatred of all jew's, he was one of the most evil men in recent history, not like Fred West or Gacy or Ed Gain but a psychopath of a different and far more deadly kind but you have to understand the stimulous that created that hatred in him, he was apparently a strange child as well, his stage oratory was copied from Mussolini who he had studied so he was not the charismatic leader that history portray's him as either, one of the best doctor's in german was a Jew, Hitler's private doctor, if it had been me I would have killed hitler but then he probably had his family to worry about.

a reply to: Walkingsenseless

It would depend upon how they won it. If isolationist sentiment kept the United States out of the war, and Russian morale collapsed with Stalingrad, Hitler made it quite clear that he would annex as much of Eastern Europe and Central Asia as he could control. The collapse of the Soviet Union might turn mere anti-communists in America into pro-Nazi sympathizers, and the growth of Statism in the United States that began with FDR would take an extremely dark turn.

There would be no Jewish state in the Levant, but conflict between the House of Saud and the other post-Ottoman rulers would be inevitable. Jihad between Sunni and Shi'a would also characterize the region. The Nazis would support whichever regime seemed best able to dominate the region, providing German military technology in exchange for oil. In other words, if the Nazis won World War II and Israel didn't exist, the "Middle East" would look exactly like it does today, with Germans replacing Britain and the United States as the excuse for its problems.

a reply to: Auricom

My father was a command pilot from WWII where did YOU LEARN?

Since Germany didn't want war and it was declared on it I would assume it would have let England and France off like it wanted to in Europe war 1 before the US came in. Seeing that the rest of the world was under the boot of the West and still is I am guessing just maybe there would have been mass freedom across the globe from the colonial powers. Europe 2 was not about stopping the Germans from conquering the world, it was about stopping Germany from becoming world power with the big boys. Lets not kid ourselves.

MASS freedom,let ENGLAND off? NAZI GERMANY DIDN'T WANT WAR?
What planet are you from? And I thought that thread about us bombing ourselves was NUTS.
WE DID back Japan into a corner by strangling their imports but Germany WAS an expansionistic regime.

NAZIS were led by a fool. HE essential LOST the war, not their MILITARY, his choices. his errors.
THIS REVISIONIST BS is not going to fly at all AND I look FORWARD to your ELUCIDATION on that lulu.

Not THE WEST I am THE WEST it is not MY idea to rule the world MONEY does that.

a reply to: HarbingerOfShadows

Hitler said "We have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will collapse"

Barbarossa started late, after a prolonged rainy spring. With a few weeks of dithering in August and the reassignment of the Ukraine, instead of Moscow, as the major goal for the summer/fall, and the lack of support by the Japanese in Siberia, the Russians were able to hold on.

German troops wore charity drive civilian coats that winter, because the supply system had made no provision for a war lasting past the autumn.

The German casualties jumped up to half a million per year for the first time in 1941-42.


en.wikipedia.org...

And Russia did not collapse, perhaps mainly due to a baby boom coming of age in the early 1940's.
(Lenin's private property policy in the early 1920's facilitated a baby boom in Russia. Stalin ended it with the first 5 year plan)

Japan declared war on the US, instead of the USSR.

Germany no longer got strategic materials from Russia( like oil and food), and the Uboats would have to sink American as well as British merchant ships in the Atlantic.

That is when the Holocaust started, when Germany was looking at a two front war of attrition for the first time.

And a vast majority, 70 to 90 %, of the people who died in WWII, were still alive when the Americans joined the war.

a reply to: LABTECH767

There's a big difference from remembering and just making stuff up. If we muddle up history, especially when it comes to Nazi Germany we're mocking what truly happened. It's such a horrible act that there's no need to exaggerate it.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Auricom

My father was a command pilot from WWII where did YOU LEARN?

I had Jewish family escape Germany, but I don't use that to win arguments. Thank you for being an adult in this thread.

a reply to: Semicollegiate

And a vast majority, 70 to 90 %, of the people who died in WWII, were still alive when the Americans joined the war.

Because the lessons they learned from their extermination efforts in Russia were applied.
Not because they were desperate.
They hadn't really started losing until after Stalingrad.
Which is why the causalities jump 42-43.

But even after Stalingrad there was still a chance of winning.
Their morale at home and even at the front did not just crumble like you keep trying to claim.

a reply to: Auricom

I don't expect to win an argument with someone who's premis has already failed yet STILL argues and also bitches about my about my maturity without any factual rebuttal.
I expect to expose YOUR ideas to be errors as you have expressed them. I'm a vet and my views will reflect that.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Well it is a valid question.
Your father being in WW2 has nothing to do with how much you know about a war that probably happened before you were born.
It's a fluff and it's illogical.

With elimination of Zionist controlled international banking the world would have been way more stable if not peaceful

originally posted by: Walkingsenseless
Wasn't sure where to put this so I thought id put it here.

I am curious what peoples views are on this alternative history idea regarding Islamic extremism and the Israeli - Palestine situation if the Nazis had won WW2.

Do you think extreme Islam would exist?
What do you think the land of Israel today would be called/would be?

I think its an interesting topic.

I believe if they would have won Israel would be a under complete German control due to its religious worth. I don't think it would be under Iew, or Arab control.

I think the Jewish population would only be in the USA

I do believe extreme Islam would be alive, but anywhere near to the extent it is today.

Your thoughts?

Considering the Nazis made pacts with Muslims and even had a Muslum SS regiment from the Middle East. They probably would have had a Caliphate in the Middle East as a "client state" and left them alone to do what they wanted as long as they took orders from Berlin and (once oil was discovered) kept the fuel flowing. Otherwise, once oil was discovered and it did not flow to Germant, they would have just taken it over and changed it from client state to out right skave stats and then they'd have to deal with an insurgency.

originally posted by: HarbingerOfShadows
a reply to: Semicollegiate

And a vast majority, 70 to 90 %, of the people who died in WWII, were still alive when the Americans joined the war.

Because the lessons they learned from their extermination efforts in Russia were applied.
Not because they were desperate.
They hadn't really started losing until after Stalingrad.
Which is why the causalities jump 42-43.

But even after Stalingrad there was still a chance of winning.
Their morale at home and even at the front did not just crumble like you keep trying to claim.

I didn't say moral had crumbled.

The decision makers detected permanent isolation from the rest of the world. Like the USSR had after WWII. Combined with food and raw material shortages, the Holocaust executors took advantage of an extreme situation to start an unpopular and potentially divisive program under the color of austerity, probably.

Maybe it was totally secret.

On January 20, 1942, several top officials of the German government met to officially coordinate the military and civilian administrative branches of the Nazi system to organize a system of mass murder of the Jews. This meeting, called the Wannsee Conference, "marked the beinning of the full-scale, comprehensive extermination operation [of the Jews] and laid the foundations for its organization, which started immediately after the conference ended" (Yahil, The Holocaust, p. 318).
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

The Holocaust began after the failure of Barbarossa and the entry of the United States into the war.

Hitler agreed with zionist agreement to transport Jews to Palestine (Haavara Agreement) by train. It is quoted that Hitler stated, he would not rest until the last Jew had left Germany, so imagine Israel would exist, but have no world control in media etc as they have now.

West has empowered islamic extremist to broaden their control of the commercial world by destroying islamic states. So if Germany had won there wouldn't be any need for islamic extremist. But Hitler did mention that if Arabs had won the battle of tours in the 8th Century and world was islamic, islamized Germans could have stood at the head of the Mohammedan Empire.

I am not sure if the world would be better or worse, its clear that nazi's were demonized, so a lot of misinformation about them exists.

Hitler, in my opinion, if he didnt make a move for Russia, would have over-ran all of Europe and quite possibly the British isles. Russia and Germany would have made a Peace pact so Germany wouldnt ever invade Russia.

Russia would have had Turkey/Persia area under its control.

Germany woul have eventually over-ran Africa aswell under its control.

Japan would have controlled entire South East Asia/Pacific.

Would would have had 4 spheres of Influence....Germanic, Russian. japanese and Amrican.

In that respect, I beleive as unfavorable that idea appears. you can guaramtee after all that there would be more peace in the world than there is today how it is.

Any alliances the Nazis made with non" Aryans " would be temporary they would go after each other much like the Allies did after WWII when the Germans and Japanese were our enemies and the Chinese and Russians were our friends,another fact it's not an easy thing to rule the world,or even much of it without it coming back to bite you in the ass,ask the Greeks,Romans,British,French etc you need the corporation of the locals be it labor or other wise and herein lay the problem they will sought to undermine them,perhaps anyone of it's former allies would make alliances with the locals in Nazi controlled areas,the locals themselves would eventually assert themselves against both Nazis and former allies of the Nazis after all this is how it worked in this reality,add to the fact that no matter how hard one tries to keep so-called purity the colonizer often become the colonized as people would eventually flood in from the colonies to the central cities it happens only every time.

Sticking with the OP assumption that Nazi Germany had prevailed...

You have to remember that the US only entered the war after Germany declared war on them and the Japanese had played the Pearl Harbor gamble. Up until then the US wanted to keep out of war - preferring to profiteer from the sales to the UK and watch their economic rival (the UK) be sapped dry.

Germany's goals were the same as WW1, that of to kill off Russia and subdue France. Had they done so, and taken Western Europe - including the UK - then chances are they would have stopped, as that was their objective. There was no objective to "rule the world".

The Empire of Japan would have picked off the remains of the British Empire in the Far East, and all the possessions of the invaded Western European states, although whether they would have been able to take India is questionable.

The US, as a neutral and without direct provocation, would have stayed that way. However, they would have reached an accord with the belligerent nations to preserve some vestige of world order.

The world today would then have become.

- The USA and remnants of the British Empire un-quelled (India, Australia, Canada, South Africa etc) - probably aligned to the USA. This would constitute the Free Democratic World.
- Europe and Russia under Nazi dominion. Picked clean of Jews and other "undesirables". This would constitute an oppressive dictatorship similar to what Stalin achieved. One wonders whether it would have failed like Soviet Communism though.
- Empire of Japan covering China, Burma and all places in between. This would - like Europe, be one vast dictatorship.
- South America and unaligned.
- Africa divvied with Germany the new colonial master in most places. Doubtful that Germany would have undertaken decolonisation like the British, so probably not a nice place to be.

Some people on these Boards would celebrate that Israel would not exist. However, the Middle East under German and Italian occupation would be pretty cruel.

The world would be a terrible place to live in for many people.

Regards

a reply to: Semicollegiate

No, the Death Camps and "The Final Solution" started the US's entry into the war.
Barbarosa wasn't truly a failure til after Kursk, where the Wehrmacht's back was essentially broken.
You don't call a plan a failure because you hit a few road bumps.

Since you will not believe me:

ANTI-JEWISH POLICY ESCALATES

After the September 1939 German invasion of Poland (the beginning of World War II), anti-Jewish policy escalated to the imprisonment and eventual murder of European Jewry. The Nazis first established ghettos (enclosed areas designed to isolate and control the Jews) in the Generalgouvernement (a territory in central and eastern Poland overseen by a German civilian government) and the Warthegau (an area of western Poland annexed to Germany). Polish and western European Jews were deported to these ghettos where they lived in overcrowded and unsanitary conditions with inadequate food.

MASSIVE KILLING OPERATIONS BEGIN

After the June 1941 German invasion of the Soviet Union, SS and police units (acting as mobile killing units) began massive killing operations aimed at entire Jewish communities. By autumn 1941, the SS and police introduced mobile gas vans. These paneled trucks had exhaust pipes reconfigured to pump poisonous carbon monoxide gas into sealed spaces, killing those locked within. They were designed to complement ongoing shooting operations.

On July 17, 1941, four weeks after the invasion of the Soviet Union, Hitler tasked SS chief Heinrich Himmler with responsibility for all security matters in the occupied Soviet Union. Hitler gave Himmler broad authority to physically eliminate any perceived threats to permanent German rule. Two weeks later, on July 31, 1941, Nazi leader Hermann Goering authorized SS General Reinhard Heydrich to make preparations for the implementation of a "complete solution of the Jewish question."

KILLING CENTERS

In the autumn of 1941, SS chief Heinrich Himmler assigned German General Odilo Globocnik (SS and police leader for the Lublin District) with the implementation of a plan to systematically murder the Jews of the Generalgouvernement. The code name Operation Reinhard was eventually given to this plan, named after Heydrich (who was assassinated by Czech partisans in May 1942). As part of Operation Reinhard, Nazi leaders established three killing centers in Poland -- Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka -- with the sole purpose of the mass murder of Jews.

The Majdanek camp served from time to time as a killing site for Jews residing in the Generalgouvernement. In its gas chambers, the SS killed tens of thousands of Jews, primarily forced laborers too weak to work. The SS and police killed at least 152,000 people, mostly Jews, but also a few thousand Roma (Gypsies), in gas vans at the Chelmno killing center about thirty miles northwest of Lodz. In the spring of 1942, Himmler designated Auschwitz II (Auschwitz-Birkenau) as a killing facility. SS authorities murdered approximately one million Jews from various European countries at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

German SS and police murdered nearly 2,700,000 Jews in the killing centers either by asphyxiation with poison gas or by shooting. In its entirety, the "Final Solution" called for the murder of all European Jews by gassing, shooting, and other means. Six million Jewish men, women, and children were killed during the Holocaust -- two-thirds of the Jews living in Europe before World War II.

SOURCE

Simple fact of the matter, the Holocaust was the culmination of a plan they had been working at for a while now.
Not a response to the status of the war.