Why Does a Florida County Need Eight $18 Million Helicopters?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Oh I don't know, maybe because the entire AFSOC inventory is located in Florida. Including helicopter and fixed wing ISR equipment. Don't you think that MAYBE you'd have to have a security clearance to work on those?

a reply to: Zaphod58

The only one going "lalalala" here is you... Try to read what the man said again...

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The most recent addition is a UH-1H Huey chopper that arrived in May 2013 and will be used to help in firefighting and rescue operations. Coppola said it cost $2,000, but it needed some work. Replacing the machine's rotor blades and rotor shaft, as well as other maintenance, cost $12,000, Coppola said. To buy retail, he estimated it would have cost closer to $400,000.
...

What he is saying is if they were to buy THAT same huey at retail, as in the value given by the military, not as in a brand new Huey... and the $400,000 was an estimate he gave. He probably didn't remember the full price which is why he gave the estimate. Even if what he actually meant was to buy it retail somewhere else, he was talking about buying it broken up the way this particular huey was.

Look at the prices of the ads I gave for similar Hueys at TODAY'S prices, completely fixed, some of them go for 800k, while others are 490k+. Again, those are fixed Hueys.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Oh I see, how convenient for you to dismiss the fact that even on their own webpage they state that they do work with law enforcement, or that the link that the Detroit Free Press gave they stated was for inventory that was transferred to LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES... For crying out loud...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Fire Rescue and the Sheriff's Office are different departments.

Take a look at Brevard County on google earth and one can see the Fire Rescue's need for a chopper. The Sheriff's department also uses their helos for SAR missions.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Zaphod58

The only one going "lalalala" here is you... Try to read what the man said again...

...
The most recent addition is a UH-1H Huey chopper that arrived in May 2013 and will be used to help in firefighting and rescue operations. Coppola said it cost $2,000, but it needed some work. Replacing the machine's rotor blades and rotor shaft, as well as other maintenance, cost $12,000, Coppola said. To buy retail, he estimated it would have cost closer to $400,000.
...

What he is saying is if they were to buy THAT same huey at retail, as in the value given by the military, not as in a brand new Huey... and the $400,000 was an estimate he gave. He probably didn't remember the full price which is why he gave the estimate.

Look at the prices of the ads I gave for similar Hueys at TODAY'S prices, completely fixed, some of them go for 800k, while others are 490k+. Again, those are fixed Hueys.

Ok I see where you are confused. The value the DLA lists is

the amount the military services paid for the property.

That is according to the DLA 1033 website. As has been linked many many times. So that is not what it is worth, not its current value and not a retail price. As the Huey is from the 1960-70s the current retail prices on them are very low compared to what they would have been brand new.

Not that any of that really matters as we know the Department of States Air Wing at Patrick Airforce Base in Brevard county took a delivery of a bunch of former navy and marine corps helicopters in 2011 LINK. So you have the State Departments Air Wing getting a bunch of military helicopters through the 1033 program (which they can use because they have The Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs (INL) Office of Aviation under them) LINK . And we know the DLA lists things by county not by what Federal, State, or local organization recieves the item.

So we have an organization in the county showing they recieved a bunch of miltary surplus helicopters in 2011. A DLA data base saying sent a bunch of military surplus helicopters to the same county in 2011. And you think they are unrelated and instead some helicopters were dropped off in 2011 and have sat around rotting until 2014 when a new company comes to town that is going to take care of them. Which is a more logical conclusion that does not require creating any kind of story to go along with?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

They also mentioned that one of the helos was shot down twice in VIETNAM,

And that doesn't make you think about something...the fact that Apaches didn't fly in Viet Nam...

The prototype YAH-64 was first flown on 30 September 1975. The U.S. Army selected the YAH-64 over the Bell YAH-63 in 1976, and later approved full production in 1982.

en.wikipedia.org...

Especially since the Viet Nam war ended in 1975.

The capture of Saigon by the North Vietnamese Army in April 1975 marked the end of the war, and North and South Vietnam were reunified the following year.

en.wikipedia.org...

So there are at least two that aren't Apaches, so that makes 6 Apaches left that could be, but probably aren't.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

or that the link that the Detroit Free Press gave they stated was for inventory that was transferred to LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES... For crying out loud...

Now can you possibly show some evidence that proves the database was, or is related to DLA because so far nothing does except for what seems to be the source of this info...And his source was Reddit.

www.facebook.com...

And he even updated his info about this...

]Update: so apparently these units are listed under local police for procurement reasons, but are actually based at the local Air Force Base. Thanks to Jonathan Rieder Lundkvist for the research

Sorry, no conspiracy and the county didn't actually buy them for law enforcement.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Here's what a little research gets you.

North American Surveillance Systems, or NASS, considered locations in North Carolina, Kentucky and Georgia before choosing Brevard County. NASS will lease existing office space with a small hangar at the airport and build an additional, 20,150-square-foot hangar to provide space to support its strategic growth and projected throughput needed for two recently awarded contracts.

Press Release

Moving to Brevard County was NOT specific to them getting these helicopters.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Wrong again, that facebook article was posted on August 21st, meanwhile the Detroit Free Press article was posted on Aug. 17, 2014.

I have already explained this several times. There is no possible way that the article that man posted on August 21st was posted BEFORE the actual article from the Detroit Free Press which was published on Aug. 17, 2014.

If anything, that man who posted on August 21st on his facebook page got the info from the Detroit Free Press, and not the other way around.

Sorry, but once again you are wrong...

originally posted by: MrSpad

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Ok I see where you are confused. The value the DLA lists is

That is according to the DLA 1033 website. As has been linked many many times. So that is not what it is worth, not its current value and not a retail price. As the Huey is from the 1960-70s the current retail prices on them are very low compared to what they would have been brand new.

...

MrSpad, the thing is you would probably have been right, but the problem I see is the discrepancy in the prices of the helos seen in the list.

I know that price is not what they cost now. It is the original price of the helos, and at 18 million each originally, that is a huge amount of money and a big discrepancy.

Most of the helos that have been acquired by the Sheriff County Office, at least those seen in the video at this link Could not be valued at 18 million each. None of them would. The UH-1 hueys were the most used helos back then, and because of the war efforts they were built very cheaply commanding a price range around $400,000 -$600,000 back then, if not less.

As for what you mentioned that the helos were received by the Patrick Airforce base I would have agreed with you, except in that fact there is still a huge discrepancy in the value of the helo list in thelink you gave and the value of the helos seen at the Detroit Free press, which they state lists all equipment being received by Law Enforcement agencies.

Most of those helos found at the list you provided were built at very affordable prices as most of them were built for the Vietnam war effort en mass, and none of them would have cost originally 18 million. Even the Sikorsky S-61N Mk.II built in 1980 and found in your list would be valued, originally, at around the $650,000 range.

Something is not right here because in none of the lists, or even the videos of the helos supposedly that the Brevard Sheriff County office has, none of them would have commanded an original price at 18 million each.

I am trying to get in contact with the Detroit Free Press to see if they can shed some more light on this discrepancy.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: MrSpad

...
Ok I see where you are confused. The value the DLA lists is

That is according to the DLA 1033 website. As has been linked many many times. So that is not what it is worth, not its current value and not a retail price. As the Huey is from the 1960-70s the current retail prices on them are very low compared to what they would have been brand new.

...

MrSpad, the thing is you would probably have been right, but the problem I see is the discrepancy in the prices of the helos seen in the list.

I know that price is not what they cost now. It is the original price of the helos, and at 18 million each originally, that is a huge amount of money and a big discrepancy.

Most of the helos that have been acquired by the Sheriff County Office, at least those seen in the video at this link Could not be valued at 18 million each. None of them would. The UH-1 hueys were the most used helos back then, and because of the war efforts they were built very cheaply commanding a price range around $400,000 -$600,000 back then, if not less.

As for what you mentioned that the helos were received by the Patrick Airforce base I would have agreed with you, except in that fact there is still a huge discrepancy in the value of the helo list in thelink you gave and the value of the helos seen at the Detroit Free press, which they state lists all equipment being received by Law Enforcement agencies.

Most of those helos found at the list you provided were built at very affordable prices as most of them were built for the Vietnam war effort en mass, and none of them would have cost originally 18 million. Even the Sikorsky S-61N Mk.II built in 1980 and found in your list would be valued, originally, at around the $650,000 range.

Something is not right here because in none of the lists, or even the videos of the helos supposedly that the Brevard Sheriff County office has, none of them would have commanded an original price at 18 million each.

I am trying to get in contact with the Detroit Free Press to see if they can shed some more light on this discrepancy.

Your going to find that the military will absord the price of all R&D into to the early production runs of its weapons systems. This is why when the B-2 Steath Bomber was created they were suppose to produce 132 of them, but that was cut to 20 so the cost went from 570 miillion an aircraft to 2.2 billion. So you will find wide prices changes in early production runs compared to later ones. As military surplus tends to be the oldest of a sytem being placed into retirement then those early production costs will be what they use.

a reply to: MrSpad

But none of those helos would have cost 18 million, more so when those on the list you provided were mass produced at a time when they were very attractive to buy by our military because of their cheap cost and the need for so many for the Vietnam war. Even the two Sikorsky S-61N Mk.II built in 1980 would not come near to 18 million each in original value.

Those 8 helos at 18 million each could not be any of the helos that the Brevard county Sheriff showed, or the ones in your list.

BTW, you are talking about the creation of the 20 B-2 stealth bomber, which would account for the 2 billion in price each. The helos in your list were built in the thousands, which made them cheaper for our military to buy.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Once again you show how little you know. An OH-58D fly away cost is almost $7M originally, in 2013, it was up to $11M.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: MrSpad

But none of those helos would have cost 18 million, more so when those on the list you provided were mass produced at a time when they were very attractive to buy by our military because of their cheap cost and the need for so many for the Vietnam war. Even the two Sikorsky S-61N Mk.II built in 1980 would not come near to 18 million each in original value.

Those 8 helos at 18 million each could not be any of the helos that the Brevard county Sheriff showed, or the ones in your list.

BTW, you are talking about the creation of the 20 B-2 stealth bomber, which would account for the 2 billion in price each. The helos in your list were built in the thousands, which made them cheaper for our military to buy.

Ok, lets us go with the B-2s as an example.. The entire RD cost was shoved into the first production run of 20 so each one cost the military 2 billion. And lets say we decide to run a second production run of 20, that cost would drop to about 500 million each. Now lets say they retire some of the first run B-2s and give them to military surplus 1033 program. Now they would be stripped of weapons systems and a bunch of other stuff and may not even fly.

Now what value would they be listed for on LPA listings if they were 1st production run B-2s? That is right 2 billion each. Because in military accounting that is what each one of those original B-2s cost them. Even though later productions meant steep drops in price. The 1st run will listed as what it cost then, not later, not now.

Now take that and apply it to your helicopters.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h


And that doesn't make you think about something...the fact that Apaches didn't fly in Viet Nam...

...


So there are at least two that aren't Apaches, so that makes 6 Apaches left that could be, but probably aren't.

All of the helos in the database link given by Detroit Free Press cost the same, and there is no mention that ANY of them were used in Vietnam. I am talking about the helos in the database link, not the helos shown in the Brevard Sheriff County premises which NONE would cost 18 million...

You are confused. The helo that was in Vietnam was the UH-1H model 204. The Sheriff even says if they were to buy that Huey it would cost 400,000... You can buy one of those for less than $400,000. No Huey flown in Vietnam would cost 18 million... That UH-1H huey which in the video shows to be a 204 model, a much cheaper model since it is smaller. That was the helo that went to Vietnam, and it didn't cost originally 18 million... It cost our military around $400,000 or so. Thousands of those helos were built, and bought in large bulk by our military to use in Vietnam.

This is what you are not understanding, the helos mentioned in the database from the Detroit Free Press are not the same as those shown at that video, or even those shown in MRspad's link. The 8 helos from the Detroit Free Press database seem to be unaccounted for.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Are you now saying that the price shown are up to date prices?... The prices of helos that were used during the Vietnam war, which are most of the helos found in MRspad's link were built in bulk, making them much cheaper than if they were built today. Normally when the military buys any equipment they try to buy as much in bulk as possible, which would make them cheaper.

As for the 11 million cost for a 2013-2014 OH-58D, that would be the cost of one if it was built today, of course if they buy bulk the price would go down. Still, from 11 million to 18 million there is a 7 million price tag difference.

This is a photo of an OH-58D which would cost 11 million.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I already said that they were what the military paid for them. The POINT was that you were utterly wrong on the value of them.

Early model UH-1s ran about $15M, later models are over $25M. So it's quite easy for them to be observation helicopters, or similar models to both the State Department, or police helicopters, and still have the value listed.

originally posted by: MrSpad


Um the police and the FBI became heavily armed which is why so many famous gansters of the day died in a hail of machine gun fire from the "G-men"

Your claim would have merit if every police man became heavily armed permanently across the country and pointed to the gangsters in Chicago as the reason. That never happened.

originally posted by: jacobe001

originally posted by: MrSpad


Um the police and the FBI became heavily armed which is why so many famous gansters of the day died in a hail of machine gun fire from the "G-men"

Your claim would have merit if every police man became heavily armed permanently across the country and pointed to the gangsters in Chicago as the reason. That never happened.

Because they created heavlily armed units. Then just like today most of the police had a side arm and shot gun the only real change is most have moved on from revolvers to semi-automatic pistols now. That does not mean however they do not have better armed units they can call on then and now. So you are correct things now are pretty much the same as then.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I already said that they were what the military paid for them. The POINT was that you were utterly wrong on the value of them.

Early model UH-1s ran about $15M, later models are over $25M. So it's quite easy for them to be observation helicopters, or similar models to both the State Department, or police helicopters, and still have the value listed.

How am I utterly wrong in stating the original value of those helos?... Those helos shown by the Brevard Sheriff County in the video, and the majority of the helos seen in the list given by MRspad were ALL built during the Vietnam war era, the only exception being the two S-61N Mk.II from 1980, and they did not cost $18 million each because they were mass produced in the thousands which made them very cheap for our military. Now, you keep being the one making claims that make no sense whatsoever.

If you were to make a brand new Huey NOW when they are not being mass produced it could be possible that their price would be so high, but according to the Brevard county Sheriff they only have received helos that were used during the Vietnam war none of which would have cost originally $18 million, and neither would the ones shown in MRspad list.

As for whether the NASS is involved in the militarization of LEA's, why would a veteran business that specializes on military aircraft and is seeking people with the skills to work on avionic ISR integration be expanding in the Florida area unless they expected an increase demand on U.S. soil for their services?

IF they expected an increase in the demand of their services maybe because our military is preparing for another war overseas NASS would be seeking to expand their business overseas, not in the U.S. In a business model that makes a lot more sense. Then again, need I remind you that NASS in their own website do state that they do work with LEA's? Then again, as stated by the Detroit Free Press article the link they provided is for military equipment that has been sent to LEA's

I am making educated guesses based on the information we actually have. You just want to dismiss it all out of hand without any actual proof that would corroborate your claims.

The fact that NASS is expanding their business in the U.S. tells me that my educated guess is probably right, unless there is proof that would tell me the opposite. In a business model it makes more sense to expand your business in the areas where you expect an increase in the demand for your services, which does tell me they expect an increase in demand for their skills and experience working on avionic ISR integration WITHIN the U.S., and more specifically in the SE not because they expect our military to start another war overseas.