Is Jesus being depicted as satan in the arts?

a reply to: windword

I will probably read some of that. I may not have googled it myself.

originally posted by: Harvin

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Harvin

Many may not have ever been viewed seriously and that should be obvious since fiction and satire has been around long time.

Well that sucks considering all the human and animal sacrifices throughout history for satire purposes.

So do you actually believe that it was only when your personal flavor of religion came around that people thought "well this $#!t must be real"?

It seems you are overlooking pretty much all of history.

I never knew that history included "1,000s maybe even 1,000,000s of gods/deities" And my response is not overlooking history.

Seriously you didn't know that??? Just cultures that have inhabited China have had well over 500 from one or dynasties. We don't have much accurate information predating 4,000 BC but there are over 3,700 supernatural beings which have been cataloged by historians and the excepted amount that would be considered deities would be 2,870.

This means any dieties worshipped by man before this period are unaccounted for. In truth, the possibilities are nearly infinite. For example, in Hindu the entire living universe is merely a unique manifestation of Ishvara. This leads to the fact that there are 330 million "gods or goddesses." How many gods and goddesses are there?

So do you really think it was only when your flavor of Deity came around that people said "wow this $#!t must be real"?

Hopefully someone figures that one out. Its really sceptic. What does the sign really mean? Like meaning of it

originally posted by: Aural
Have you ever lifted your hand up and relaxed it? Do it now. Your pinky and ring finger will fold more than index and mid finger. Its easy to see how this would appear in multiple cultures whether coppied or not.

My middle finger closes as much as ring and pinky.

That was a horrible explanation. You got that many stars? For making crap up.

In art, symbolism holds much more value than you seem to want to understand.

Keep twisting...

a reply to: Grimpachi

OK 2870. And then when we throw everything else in we can say millions.

a reply to: Harvin

That is exactly what I had stated..NO?

By the way that is 2,870 not counting anything before 4,000 BC to be precise.

Just to clarify for some proper perspective.

It’s believed that humans originated about 200,000 years ago in the Middle Paleolithic period in southern Africa.How Long Have Humans Been on Earth?

a reply to: Grimpachi

It's good that you clarified. Just to remind you - Supernatural is a very broad word and were going off into a bit of a tangent here. Interesting though.

a reply to: Harvin

Yes supernatural is a broad word that is why I clarified that out of the known 3,700 supernatural beings categorized after 4,000 BC that 2,780 of them would be considered proper deities. Those numbers say nothing of the amount of supernatural beings or deities before 4,000 BC.

To keep from going of on a tangent I will ask you again do you honestly believe that it was only when your personal flavor of deity emerged that people thought "well this one must be real"???

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Harvin

To keep from going of on a tangent I will ask you again do you honestly believe that it was only when your personal flavor of deity emerged that people thought "well this one must be real"???

Already stated I am agnostic.

Yes...yes, supernatural and you give zero credibility that some have always been fictional. That is fine.

a reply to: Harvin

you give zero credibility that some have always been fictional.

I never said any such thing however you did say.

We know they are stories and always have.

So you made the claim that people always knew they were just stories.

I think you are wrong in fact I am certain you are wrong. Many of those stories people believed in them as much or more so than the current followers of modern day religions believe in their stories/deities.

originally posted by: Harvin

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Harvin

To keep from going of on a tangent I will ask you again do you honestly believe that it was only when your personal flavor of deity emerged that people thought "well this one must be real"???

Already stated I am agnostic.

Yes...yes, supernatural and you give zero credibility that some have always been fictional. That is fine.

It still begs the question of why you think that Jesus was real while others weren't. Jesus was 100% supernatural, from his conception to his resurrection. So why do you think that he was real?

a reply to: Harvin
you give zero credibility that some have always been fictional.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
I never said any such thing...

You said there were millions of (believed to be) known gods. I think you are a little gullible too - who to believe etc...

originally posted by: Grimpachi

So you made the claim that people always knew they were just stories.

I think you are wrong in fact I am certain you are wrong. Many of those stories people believed in them as much or more so than the current followers of modern day religions believe in their stories/deities.

That is a lot of conjecture all rolled into a few sentences. You assume some did.

So surely not Paul Bunyan. Seriously.

a reply to: Harvin

You said there were millions of (believed to be) known gods. I think you are a little gullible too - who to believe etc...

You didn't click on the link I provided when I made that statement did you? Links are there for a reason.

Here is a excerpt from the link.

Since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities. Those numbers are probably a very conservative estimate because we have no accurate information before 4000 B.C. This means any dieties worshipped by man before this period are unaccounted for.

You said there were millions of (believed to be) known gods. I think you are a little gullible too - who to believe etc...

Who to believe...hmmm... thats a hard choice. Should I believe your ideas or published works and compilations from historians. GEE that's a hard one.

That is a lot of conjecture all rolled into a few sentences. You assume some did.

So surely not Paul Bunyan. Seriously.

I don't think Paul Bunyan is part of that list. I would say the deities in which human and animal sacrifices were made to would qualify as strong belief in that deity...NO?

Paul Bunyan was on my list and served as an example of how tall tales, myths, legends and religious beliefs can be inspired by real people though the "end product" doesn't really exist.

Anyone who has studied comparative religions, literature, history, psychology or, really, any modern academic subject outside of the pure sciences has likely heard of the concept of archetypes, which are, in short, cultural artifacts that are reproduced from culture to culture and embody certain characteristics.

Paul Bunyan is a perfect example of how stories that were inspired by normal human individuals, in this case, loggers and frontiersmen in the American and Canadian west, transformed in only a few years into creating figures who are, literally, larger than life.

The same thing happened with , Heracles, Odysseus, Thor, Jesus and hundreds of other figures.

Humans are story-tellers; that's really all the explanation that is needed.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Yeah that was a good example for the point you were making.

Though I am not sure if Thor started out that way. I posted earlier the lore on Loki and how people though he was responsible for earthquakes.

Human imagination is a wonderful thing I can only imagine what future archaeologists in a thousand or two years will think if they ever come across a stash of comics. Even better alien archaeologists but there goes that human imagination again.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Yes, and Thor, for example, throwing his warhammer around the skies, bouncing off mountains and giant's heads, explained thunder and lighting. (Thunor, Donar, Thunaz "thunder").

A similar god shows up in almost all Indo-European cultures, from England to India.

Same with "the Skyfather" (Dyus Patar), "the Earthmother," the young goddess of love, the divine twins, etc. etc., along with, of course, the young god of the sun that dies, is buried, and rises again.

Just a little bit of perspective does wonders. Thanks for your additions to the thread; very helpful!

a reply to: Gryphon66

Thank you Gryphon this has been an interesting thread even though the OP seems to have abandoned it.

The direction and conversation this thread has gone made me think of The religion of “John Frum” where islanders worship an American GI and have a prophecy of his return.

John Frum promised the dawn of a new age in which all white people, including missionaries, would depart New Hebrides, leaving behind their goods and property for the native Melanesians. For this to happen, however, the people of Tanna had to reject all aspects of European society including money, western education, Christianity, and work on copra plantations, plus they had to return to traditional kastom (the Pijin language word for customs).

JOHN FRUM AND THE CARGO CULTS

I think I first read about that religion here on ATS but I can't find the thread. I remember reading from the article where they asked a chieftain why they continue to believe Frum will one day return the chieftain said " You Christians have been waiting for Christ for thousands of years and you haven't given up yet".

I may not have gotten the quote exact but as you can see new deities are still being thought up. One of the things about the story I found interesting is that religion has split into two factions and they have already gone to war over it at least once.

Wow...just wow. If you have the time you should read up on it I am sure there are other sources as well. Oh and they believe it isn't just stories.

edit to add

here is the ats thread on it www.abovetopsecret.com...

And here is the exact Quote I was trying to remember.

As we look down into John Frum’s fiery Tanna home, I remind him that not only does he not have an outboard motor from America, but that all the devotees’ other prayers have been, so far, in vain. “John promised you much cargo more than 60 years ago, and none has come,” I point out. “So why do you keep faith with him? Why do you still believe in him?”

Chief Isaac shoots me an amused look. “You Christians have been waiting 2,000 years for Jesus to return to earth,” he says, “and you haven’t given up hope.”




Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com...
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Its all a damn interesting read.

John Frum has already been mentioned (by me)- had you actually read this thread. You are just wasting my time now. Maybe i will look into this thread further but seriously...YOU and Gryphon66 are nothing more than rank amateurs. charlatans...

a reply to: Harvin

lololol... I must have missed your mention of the John Frum religion I generally skim over posts that don't add much to the conversation.

My question to you is if we or I am supposed to be an amateur/charlatan just what exactly are supposedly a expert at/true devote of? That is assuming you consider yourself more knowledgeable in whatever field you claim we are amateurs of. I don't really expect you to answer seeing as how you never answered my other questions. Which was actually the same question asked several times.

It's kinda funny how you have something to say about the conversation Gryphon and I were having yet you seemed to drop out of any conversation we tried to have with you.

Hmmm.....that's sort of peculiar.

originally posted by: Harvin
John Frum has already been mentioned (by me)- had you actually read this thread. You are just wasting my time now. Maybe i will look into this thread further but seriously...YOU and Gryphon66 are nothing more than rank amateurs. charlatans...

And you in contrast to us are a professional ... what ... exactly?

EDIT: NM, Grim posted already and got you on that hack statement.

Your posts offered no evidence to support any claim you made, and in fact, barely made anything that could be called an independent claim.

Your posts merely responded to what others stated and then only in a baseless, detracting manner ... shallow even, really.

Merely saying "you're wrong" and pretending that you're somehow superior is not a valid argument outside of romance and, well, elementary school. In my opinion.

Enjoy your time at ATS Harvin ...