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Are UK citizens more 'free' than people in the US?

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posted on Aug, 24 2014 @ 12:38 PM
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I live far from the U.K. That is kind of my point. I can only really get a sense of how things are from media sources, music, news, etc... When threads like these come up how can we honestly compare the two places. Unless we have been raised in both places and are aware of the constant updates in each culture. Otherwise its just mud slinging....




posted on Aug, 24 2014 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: Eyemin
We can easily compare different legislation while maintaining a reasoned debate...are you not able to compare countries without mud slinging? I am, and the majority of posters in this thread seem able to as well. That is good.
You are welcome to refrain from reading or posting here if you are unable to draw mature comparisons without mud slinging



posted on Aug, 24 2014 @ 01:12 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

Mud slinging might have been a bit much. No...comparisons are a great way to be able to get try to get a sense of understandings. But they are still someones opinions of an opinionated topic. How can you formulate an honest perspective of one thing or another without experiencing it?



posted on Aug, 24 2014 @ 01:24 PM
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originally posted by: Eyemin
a reply to: grainofsand

Mud slinging might have been a bit much. No...comparisons are a great way to be able to get try to get a sense of understandings. But they are still someones opinions of an opinionated topic.
That's cool, but we all know we're controlled by some alpha group, and right now in the UK & US it is our respective governments. Governments write laws, and those laws can be compared without having been to either country.


How can you formulate an honest perspective of one thing or another without experiencing it?

I mentioned the crazy tax laws for US citizens that even legally living and working in another country for 50 years if they return to the US they are subject to income taxes on those earnings even though they paid income tax in the other country. The UK does not do that if you live and work in a different country.
I formulated an honest perspective without visiting the US - I am glad I can live and work in other countries without the UK government stinging me for back-taxes on my return.

*Edit*
In fact, every single thread I read from ATS members in the US expressing discontent with alleged breaches on their freedom inspires me to find out if the UK has similar laws. I don't have to experience life in Syria/Gaza/Saudi Arabia (for example) to consider if I have more 'freedom' than the average poor folk there.
It is the multiple claims of 'loss of freedom' by US members that inspired the thread - I often see stupid laws posted here which we don't have in the UK, as there are stupid laws in the UK which are not in the US...it is a debate I find interesting.
edit on 24-8-2014 by grainofsand because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 11:39 AM
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Posted today on ATS:
SC police beat man in Walmart as horrified shoppers beg officers to stop

...anyone remember the last time a UK cop was filmed doing that?
Is it that we are so poor we don't own many mobile phones so it never gets online?, or maybe the UK govt censors the net so well that nobody sees it?, perhaps UK police break the phones of anyone who records such stuff? ...or is it because it doesn't really happen that much in the UK?

Interested in all thoughts, but if 'freedom' is ultimately enforced by the police then my original sentiments still stand...I prefer my 'freedom' in the UK.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 11:53 AM
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Now that the FBI is creeping into England We shall see.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: cavtrooper7
As I stated in the 'other' thread:


I will neither recognise, comply or talk to a US official in my country, I would ignore them completely and speak only to whichever UK official is in charge. I would comply to arrest by a UK official, but will physically defend myself as I would any other attacker if any US official tried to make the arrest. I wouldn't even care about any beating afterwards, no US official is going to touch me on UK territory without a fight.

I think most UK folk will feel the same that sovereignty is non-negotiable, as I also said in the 'other' thread:



I will add that I have no problem with the FBI patrolling the International zone of Heathrow, or any other airport, if it helps protect the US or UK, but after clearing customs...nah they become simple 'observers' at that point, with zero authority I will ever recognise over any UK citizen. I will only answer questions/comply/engage with UK 'officials' while on UK territory.


...oh and the 'we shall see' line indicates you were responding to the OP question, and that you feel the UK is currently more free than the US lol



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
Interested in all thoughts, but if 'freedom' is ultimately enforced by the police then my original sentiments still stand...I prefer my 'freedom' in the UK.


A small and trivial point and it is this. In the UK the police are not "law enforcement officers". It is an important cultural distinction. In the UK policing is by consent. The US model of policing is more confrontational. I suppose they have to be, what with all the guns.

Guns don't guarantee freedom, nor are they part of any equation the determine how free people are. In the US you may rant and rave about "the right to bear arms", but then you have to face the consequences of a dispassionate and dictatorial police service who are afraid of the population.

The police do not uphold "freedom". People uphold freedom, by voting in politicians, who pass laws etc. Although people can be cynical about politics, the voting of politicians in and out of power does work.

Regards



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Well, one could argue that the UK has been more of a surveillance state than the UK (more cameras ect) for a far longer period of time than the US.

Also, if I am not mistaken, there are certain laws in the UK about using racist language? It's odd, because some things I see on British TV would not be allowed on US broadcast TV, and some things on broadcast US TV would not be allowed on UK airwaves.

Interesting thread!


This. The UK has less of some things the US has that would be considered anti-freedom, OTOH, the UK has a lot of things that would be also considered anti-freedom. Perhaps one is not "more free" than the other, just different.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:23 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
Posted today on ATS:
SC police beat man in Walmart as horrified shoppers beg officers to stop

...anyone remember the last time a UK cop was filmed doing that?
Is it that we are so poor we don't own many mobile phones so it never gets online?, or maybe the UK govt censors the net so well that nobody sees it?, perhaps UK police break the phones of anyone who records such stuff? ...or is it because it doesn't really happen that much in the UK?

Interested in all thoughts, but if 'freedom' is ultimately enforced by the police then my original sentiments still stand...I prefer my 'freedom' in the UK.


First cite of the first page of a google search "UK police abuse of power."




posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:25 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

As our oppressors execute their trades with more freedom via laws,it is essentially irrelevant who "wins" this competition. THE same system is being applied as we are so connected to each other.


My daughter left America because she disagreed with my culture and wanted to try yours as she married a fellow from Nottingham. I observe her life with interest.
As to what I am thinking IT would be ,my hope WE can maintain our sovereignty I would only know horror about loosing it and would rather be dead.
edit on 25-8-2014 by cavtrooper7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:37 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc
Not so many shot, or killed by beatings I note.
Smaller country so of course smaller sample, but are you really trying to suggest that UK police are as bad as US cops?

edit on 25-8-2014 by grainofsand because: Typo



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:41 PM
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a reply to: cavtrooper7
I agree, at the top it is probably the same 'rulers' for all of us, but the system I live in allows a perception of more freedom, especially regarding killings or beatings by the police.
You are in a very good position to compare with your daughter in Nottingham. I would be interested in her 3rd party anecdotal opinions that you are aware of.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:45 PM
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Hard to say as I married her mom when she was in her 20s, so primarily she sees me as a deluded man. What she is focussing on are her children an such discussion inevitably lead to her disgust at the subject.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:54 PM
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a reply to: cavtrooper7
Hmm, yep that must influence it a fair amount.
Pity, would have been interesting, especially as Nottingham was considered one of the shooting capitals of Britain up until a few years ago. Obviously compared to any US city the stats are pretty low, but compared to my sleepy corner of SW coast of England their stats are high.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 12:59 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: NavyDoc
Not so many shot, or killed by beatings I note.
Smaller country so of course smaller sample, but are you really trying to suggest that UK police are as bad as US cops?


NO, I'm just pointing out that everybody has their problems. US cops are not by and large as awful as media reports/sterotypes and UK cops are not as jolly hail fellow well met as their stereotypes either.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 01:12 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: NavyDoc
Not so many shot, or killed by beatings I note.
Smaller country so of course smaller sample, but are you really trying to suggest that UK police are as bad as US cops?


NO, I'm just pointing out that everybody has their problems. US cops are not by and large as awful as media reports/sterotypes and UK cops are not as jolly hail fellow well met as their stereotypes either.


True, but some places are nicer to live than others in the world. It is my opinion that there are far greater incidents of police brutality/killings (per capita) in the US than the UK...do you disagree?

In my police area (Devon & Cornwall Constabulary) in the summer we have less than 20 arresting officers available at any given time for 100,000 citizens. I discussed it here: Is it police numbers or a nice environment that keeps the peace, or is it just a crazy mix?
...and although police areas vary around the UK our stats of killings and beatings by police are much lower than found in the US. Do feel free to provide referenced sources to indicate my assertions are innacurate though, I am always happy to be corrected and learn new information when approriate.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 01:23 PM
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Near as I can tell, our hamster cage is fairly large, and -- if you have a lot of money -- the restrictions don't chaff near as much as they do for people with less money.

Beyond that? "Freedom" and "liberty" are nice slogans, and they seem to pull the same crowd they always have.

In practice, the EULA for these slogans are very restrictive. Buyer beware.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 01:24 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

It will sadistically amuse me to tell her her that when it comes up,she dislikes guns immensely.

But I WILL have her happy.



posted on Aug, 25 2014 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: paraphi

A small and trivial point and it is this. In the UK the police are not "law enforcement officers". It is an important cultural distinction. In the UK policing is by consent. The US model of policing is more confrontational. I suppose they have to be, what with all the guns.

Guns don't guarantee freedom, nor are they part of any equation the determine how free people are. In the US you may rant and rave about "the right to bear arms", but then you have to face the consequences of a dispassionate and dictatorial police service who are afraid of the population.

The police do not uphold "freedom". People uphold freedom, by voting in politicians, who pass laws etc. Although people can be cynical about politics, the voting of politicians in and out of power does work.

Regards




Absolutely spot on, great post.



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