Are UK citizens more 'free' than people in the US?

originally posted by: Beyond Creation
I think the question should have been '' Who is less oppressed? '' .

People who think that they are "oppressed" in the UK, US - or any of the various liberal democracies that are often branded as the "developed world" should.

1. Travel. Go visit a country that really does oppress its citizens. Perhaps, take a banner out in the airport. They won't let you in and they may bugger-you for your efforts.
2. Actual detail how they think they are oppressed.
3. Oh, the Scottish victim. Give us a break. How are you oppressed by the English? Although. I have been the victim of Scottish to English racism.

To topic. Both the UK and US allow high degrees of freedom for their citizenry. All citizens are free to emigrate Iran, or China if they really think they are oppressed! I wonder why they don't and I wonder why the emigration traffic is the other way?

REgards

originally posted by: crayzeed
I think you'll find that buying land in the UK is not that simple. If you buy over so many acres of agricultural you have to show that you are capable of using that land for purpose. If you buy forested land you have to maintain said land ie. cut down and re plant proportions or if deciduous trees continually monitor habitat. There is only one section of our society that buys land and does not pay taxes (if your English you know who they are). If you buy land and put any accommodation on it you will be legible to pay council tax. You forgot to champion the greatest difference in the world.The NHS system in the UK was (notice the past tense there) and still could be the best in the world. Compared to the USA, sorry there is no comparison, the USA is out and out highway robbery. If it wasn't for the health and life of it's citizens I would class the US health system a crime against humanity. What about the price of transport. USA a few dollars per gallon, UK £6 to £7 per gallon. Train and air fare considerably cheaper in the US than the UK. You might for a while drop off the grid in the UK but sooner or later you will show up, whether it's for medical treatment or for polluting your land (where is your sewerage and waste being disposed), then the authorities have a field day making you pay back taxes.

You clearly know what you're talking about here. This is seen by some as the biggest freedom issue in the UK. There have been countless tragedies, alcoholism, despair, fleeing the country only to find greater problems elsewhere etc. etc., all caused by the harassment experienced by those who attempt to live a simple life on land they own themselves. Yesterday we passed such a piece of land. It looked overgrown and I don't know whether they ever managed to sell it on. As soon as they naively asked the council if there were any issues with opening up a new gateway onto the road they got the full treatment and their idealistic dreams collapsed into dust.

It's all about the 'officially' designated purpose of that land. Living on it becomes 'change of use of the land'. You get hammered. In extreme cases the bulldozers are called in, then you get presented with a bill for the costly destruction of everything you built.

Robert Kett was chained to a wooden frame and hung from the castle walls to die of exposure. Things haven't changed much since then.

a reply to: Biigs

On ATS of course, when everybody was talking about Cait Reilley but the search engine isn't working to pull it up.

there was this incident: hxxp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085142/Cait-Reilly-Unemployed-graduate-sues-ministers-forced-work-Poundland.html

It is my human right not to work for Poundland: Graduate who faced losing benefit sues ministers Cait Reilly has been looking for work since graduating in the summer She volunteered at a museum until ordered to accept two-week placement Her lawyer says the 'forced labour' breaches her human rights

there was this incident: hxxp://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/nov/16/young-jobseekers-work-pay-unemployment

Britain's jobless young people are being sent to work for supermarkets and budget stores for up to two months for no pay and no guarantee of a job, the Guardian can reveal. Under the government's work experience programme young jobseekers are exempted from national minimum wage laws for up to eight weeks and are being offered placements in Tesco, Poundland, Argos, Sainsbury's and a multitude of other big-name businesses.

There a tremendous amount of talk about how Thatcherism destroyed the UK's employment and threw them into slavery.

originally posted by: LadyTrick
I don't know what house prices are like in the US but I assume they are cheaper. Here in the UK I feel I will never be able to own a decent sized house. so in that sense I am not free as I am tied to working and paying rent and never getting anywhere.

Another thing to say is that my mother is danish and my parents didn't get married so because of a stupid law I cannot claim citizenship through my British father. I have been refused a uk passport several times even though I have a british birth certificate, born and raised in england.

I am basically being held hostage.

How exactly does that work if you have a British birth certificate?

I have heard that saying things like "Nick Clegg is a corrupt, bought and paid for criminal not worthy of feeding the pigs at Buckingham Palace, or even being trusted to muck out their pens" Could get a UK citizen jail time for saying such a thing? is it true?
But here in the USA I can say our president is more corrupt than many mafia members, and even more of a felonious Liar by how he perjured himself in congressional hearings, (like his spokesmen do for him), and that he should be sitting in a prison in Mexico for causing the deaths of lots of Mexicans (and US citizens), with giving all those guns to the country's crime families.

And he can't do anything about that. (At least that is the going story) and since our president laughs at all of our country's laws, who knows. I could get a fast acting cancer by the end of the week. So based on that, maybe the UK is now more free than here.

I'm not really sure we're the best model for 'freedom'. Our rights are all but dead. I think much of the world is catching up. Britain has become so placid, we just do what we're told for the most part. Embarrassing, really. We were disarmed long ago. We have been in a 'Police State' for a long time and we just... Got used it. We got used to everything being a crime. We got used to being taxed to death and paid little. We used to be one of the wealthiest countries in the world. I guess the money only flows in one direction. We won't admit that we have poor people either. No, we'll redefine what poverty is instead. The same things that are happening in the US are happening here. Immigration and debt slavery. We have food shortages, but have a hard time getting the government to admit it. Corruption in our system is rampant and I believe it has been long before any of us were born. We got used to it. We've still not even tackled the 50 year old paedophile ring that has touched all corners of our government and media and spanned several continents to boot. I fear we're getting used to it. We used to be a proud people too. Just don't ask me to vouch for that.

a reply to: grainofsand

we are free to stay in line with our laws. No neither are free, and this comparison game is tedious and unfruitful.

We were not disarmed ages ago!

You almost make it sound like we all had guns( a lot bought back from wars,I give you that)

This country's population didn't feel the need for guns and is the opposite of America where the place is so vast and spread out with police reactions obviously slower due to distance that having armed protection for yourself,family and property is a wise decision

We don't need guns and if we realy wanted we could join a club and fill in all the paper work

But we don't,we don't want them or need them and if we had the rights of Americans to have guns it could be a bloodbath every week over here

Worst we get is knife crime,that's bad but you can't outrun a bullet

Spent nearly 3 weeks in the states arriving in LAX airport and going west through Arizona,New Mexico,Colorado,Utah and Nevada and it's a massive place and I realy understand our cousins from over the pond having firearms.Went In to a firing range in LAX area and we had fun shooting,but I never joined a gun club back here!

Also the yanks are realy Freindly and would come over by our big BMW 1300 bikes and tell us places we should check out on our trip-I know there are rsoles on this site but we had great chats and beers in sports bars with the locals and it was genuine friendship

We did see some major poverty during our trip,one place was like a shanti town in Africa but there are places like that here too

Was 3 years ago and there was massive fires and horrendous winds and a few sand storms that tried to kill us,not the locals or the police! When we arrived in Albuquerque the smoke was bad but going north to Colorado brought clean air and stunning scenery

One thing that did bug me was jaywalking! We did it anyway but only when safe

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Shame for you to leave OtherSideOfTheCoin, seems a little preemptive considering for all you know our independence may turn out to be just the ticket!

Freedom is not only relative, its also an ilusion, as is plain to see for anyone with half a mind to do so. That being said the notion of free democratic process is the only one we have and apparently should be taken seriously. The old saying "if its not broken then dont try and fix it" springs to mind, well sure seems broken from my perspective, which is why i think change will indeed be a good thing.

Why does an independent Scotland make you feel less free?

It entirely depends on what your idea of free is. Being free in things youd never do anyway doesnt feel free. Uk is more on some things and USA more on others. You only gave examples that support your own premise rather than balance. The UK is starting to cencor the internet for example.

Shot for jay walking? Where the heck did you get that from? Never heard of that. Its a minor offense that isnt even always enforced to full levels.

a reply to: Whereismypassword

Okay, so speaking about disarmament, let's expand. If a violent intruder enters your home, what do you use to defend yourself? A knife? A bat? Your fists? You'd do what you have to do, but all of those will most likely criminalise you too and have done in the past. Disarmed by the law, no? It's not just a physical thing, either. We're being regulated out of options across the board. We've made so many laws in the name of security that they're rendering the public helpless. We're being cuffed, blindfolded and gagged. How can you say we weren't disarmed?

it's not a matter of legitimate comparison as both countries are part of the globalist structure. in fact, almost every major country is in the globalist system. don't forget, lord rothschild is a permament fixture of the globalist cartel. i'd be more inclined to believe the usa is back to being a territory of the crown, and because we are "rebels", are treated more like servants than subjects.

if its so much nicer in the uk, we will all just have to move back there. (oh wouldn't that go over well with the other immigrants. hehe)

p.s. if you're christian, muslim or jewish, you need to vacate europe, btw. that place is a tinderbox that's going to be very anti-abrahamic religion in the future.

Going by some of the responses, this is turning out to be a Rah Rah UK!! thread and I think that's what it not so subtly was to begin with. You can't compare 2 countries and say which is "better", because there are too many differences in the people. What some think is "too much" may be perfectly ordinary to others.
Just my 2.

originally posted by: LadyTrick
I don't know what house prices are like in the US but I assume they are cheaper. Here in the UK I feel I will never be able to own a decent sized house. so in that sense I am not free as I am tied to working and paying rent and never getting anywhere.

I agree with that. My house is a three bedroom end of terrace, about 950 sq ft, but it is valued at almost 10x the average UK salary. Ok it is in the southeast near London but even if you go by average London salaries it is still 7x average salary for what by US standards is a shoebox.

a reply to: ArchPlayer

I have no idea the system is stupid. It seems it makes no difference, it has been a complete nightmare.
If my parents had got married I would have no problem.

Well, since leaving the thread for a silly Friday night out, I must say thanks to everyone for all the interesting replies, and also for keeping it as a reasoned debate instead of a 'We're better than you" butt-hurt type exchange between us all.

I was hoping to see some more examples of 'freedom' being greater in the US, but it seems the main points raised are 'freedom of speech', gun rights, and CCTV, so I shall offer my opinion about those here.

I will certainly agree (who could not) that freedom of expression/speech is an absolute and clearly defined right in your legislation.
In the UK it is not. We have a mish mash of laws such as using 'threatening, abusive or insulting words and behaviour' or 'inciting violence/racial hatred' etc, which restricts certain things we may say in public.
On that point, yes, the US has more freedom for extremists to cause distress to people at funerals of dead service people for example, or to shout hatred at women attending abortion clinics, or to picket a gay wedding/civil ceremony waving vile insults at people who are peacefully going about their life.
Yes, you certainly score 1-0 there, but personally, it is not a right I would like for our extremists here. A right to cause distress to innocent people is not attractive to me.

Gun rights, yep, again 1-0 to the US. Our gun ownership is pretty much restricted to shotguns and single shot rifles, and as I said in the OP, I could own both but feel no need to as more people are struck by lightening in the UK each year (around 60 people) than are killed by gunshot wounds (around 50).
I feel no need to campaign for relaxing the laws on gun control, and I'm not aware of anyone or any group which is passionate about it. That said though, if I lived in the US I would definitely exercise my rights to own a weapon because there are so many owned by everyone else. Apples and oranges issue for me there, but it seems regarding guns that a citizen of the US should be equally afraid of the militarised police based on the number of deaths by shooting over relatively minor crimes. It appears that failing to comply is often good enough reason for a cop to shoot you...I am glad the situation in the UK is starkly different.

And now on to the CCTV some folk proclaim as a loss of freedom.
Ever since the invention of cameras, the freedom to walk down a street without someone being able to film you 'as part of the scene' was lost. Where is the difference between a business having CCTV, or a homeowner, compared to the state?
In my town we have cameras covering most of the main streets, they are operated by the local authority (council) and are watched by the security team 24/7. I actually know one of the 'watchers' and he often tells me some funny stories of drunk people or horrible stories of fights, or traffic accidents etc. But his directive while on shift is protection of the public, so when he sees a crime, or something suspicious he will radio the police on patrol and they will investigate. I like that, and can't see why anyone would not.

As I said at the start of this post I had a fun drunken night out last night, and walking home at 4am this morning I waved, saluted, or did a dramatic bow (as a peasant would have to a king) at every CCTV camera I passed, knowing I was being watched and hoping to relieve the boredom of whoever was the 'watcher'.
BUT OH NOES!!! My right to smash a store window and steal without anyone recording me has been lost. My right to beat someone to a pulp in town without the risk of video evidence has been lost. I don't see the problem, but then paranoia has never really been my thing.
I was punched in the face (for no reason) by some guy late on an empty street at night some years ago. I obviously defended myself, and while enjoying the upper hand on top of my attacker, the flashing blue lights arrived after the CCTV team had called them. I was pulled off the guy, but not cuffed as I composed myself and explained what had happened. The cops radioed CCTV who explained that the other guy had run across the road and punched me with no apparent provocation. They took my details, asked if I wanted to make a formal assualt complaint (I replied no as I was pleased with my use of 'reasonable force' during my defence), the cops chuckled, then arrested him on a drunk/disorderly charge, and I went on my way.
Before CCTV we would both have been arrested and as I was winning when the police arrived, I would probably be facing the assualt charge hoping that the courts would believe me over the other guy.

Yep, I'm happy with CCTV, but I don't see it as a freedom which I have lost. That 'freedom' to walk a street without being filmed by anyone died with the invention of cameras.

Well, enough rambling from me for now, thanks again for all the reasoned replies so far, and please do share your thoughts on the differences between restrictions on 'freedom' between the UK and US as it is a very interesting subject to me.
I am genuinely not inspired by thoughts of 'We're better than you' or whatever, but more by the huge number of complaints I see on ATS by US members who share their perceived losses of freedom...from the ridiculous ban on school bake sales, to the more sinister 'electric shock machine' in some US courts. We don't have either in the UK.

Kind regards,
GoS.

a reply to: Eyemin

That’s America-This Britain-Some things are similar-Some different-In this country the first enslaved were the working class-

What’s changed?-Worst jobs, worst conditions-Worst taxed, look where you’re livin’-You go to the pub, Friday night
You will fight with a guy-Don’t know what for-But won’t fight with a guy, suit and a tie-Who sends your kids to die in a war

They don’t sell the kids of the richer politicians-It’s your kids, the poor british- Akala fire in the booth

a reply to: Eyemin
That's a very tragic perception of life in the UK, Eyemin, I don't really recognise it outside of social housing sink estates such as where I grew up, but if that's how it is for you I suggest moving somewhere nicer, as I did. Oh, and in case you think "lucky for you" or whatever, I slept on the streets for 6 months before I rebuilt my life, and that was in the days when homeless shelters and outreach charities were pretty much non-existent.

On a lighter note...
One 'freedom' that the UK and US share equally (along with Germany, Finland, and Sweden), is that we come first in the world for the number of countries we can visit without needing a visa.
With just our passports we can travel to 174 countries around the world.

Canadians coming 2nd place, for some reason can only visit 173 - I wonder who doesn't like Canada? Lol
www.henleyglobal.com...