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The U.S. government owns all of it's citizens???

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posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 03:40 AM
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So I just found out my lady and I are having a baby. I'm American, she is a legal resident. I began researching whether to have the baby here or in her home country because I know that being an American citizen can mean paying U.S. income tax for the rest of ones life, regardless of where you earn or are resident.

Yes the U.S. one of only TWO NATIONS on the entire planet that feels it has a right to the earnings of it's citizens anywhere in the world.

Now if that didn't bother me enough already even though I've known about it for years, I learned some more disturbing things while doing research on the subject.

Even if my future daughter/son is born back in the old country, or actually ANYWHERE; they will be liable to pay and file US income taxes for their entire life unless they renounce their citizenship (generally highly frowned upon / what are you a terrorist???)...... simply as a result of having one American parent (me).

Take a look for yourself: www.expattaxandlaw.com...


The Inadvertent USC:

An individual born in the US is a USC, you have both feet in the US tax system even if you do not know you are a USC or never exercised any rights such as obtaining a social security number or a US passport. In addition, those who were born outside the US to at least one USC parent may likewise be a USC. The US Supreme Court has held that these individuals have tax return filing and tax payment obligations the same as someone living on Main Street, USA, even if that person has absolutely no ties to the US other than the accident of birth.

If this fact patterns applies to you, to do nothing, simply means that you will have a growing problem to eventually contend with. You may conclude that the IRS will never find out that you, or your father or mother were born in the US, but we are in an age of increasing international financial transparency and coordination between tax authorities, you simply do not know what could surface and when. If your affairs bring you to the US a spotlight will shine on this problem as reporting your place of birth is required for most visa and similar applications.

Many in this situation conclude that they are paying foreign tax at higher rates and therefore no US tax is owed. This may be true but you have to file a US tax return. To continue to not file US returns could cross the line into a criminal issue.

The problem goes beyond filing US tax returns and tax payments. Due to a few notorious cases, our politicians and bureaucrats view offshore economic events with a high degree of suspicion. The presumption is that US tax avoidance is involved. A complex reporting regime (the “$10,000 Penalty Regime”) has been established with significant penalties for violations. For example, a simple failure to timely file an information return about foreign bank or financial accounts in excess of $10,000 can generate a penalty of $10,000.




The Reluctant USC:

The “reluctant” USC is someone who has full knowledge that they are a USC but whose life has taken them outside the US on a more or less permanent basis. They essentially have few if any economic or legal ties to the US.

These individuals are simply unaware of the long-term complications and often unaware of current exposures as our politicians continue to target “offshore” economic transactions with costly penalties for mere “foot fault” failures to file a form on time. .

They file US tax returns (probably late) but their affairs are becoming more complex and they are surprised to learn of the increasing burden that the US tax system will put on them and the disadvantage they are at with respect to retirement and estate planning (especially when it comes to non-citizen spouses which is becoming the norm for many international families). See “USC – The Price Tag”, below.

For example, there are information returns that are due on a specific date typically with a $10,000 penalty for failure to report in a timely fashion.. See Bank Accounts - Non-US. Since the "Reluctant USC" by definition is fully aware of his status, he will be hard-pressed to offer a "reasonable cause" for escaping the $10,000 penalty regime for failure to file information returns timely.

Few "Reluctant USC" appreciate the problems here until it is too late.



WOW.

So if I went around the world impregnating women right and left, I would be creating a bunch of criminals in the eyes of the IRS simply because they never filed US tax returns even though they never even knew they had to, or had an American father.....

Oh and about that whole renouncing American citizenship thing..... They changed the laws on that too, with the EXIT TAX law, which says that even after renouncing citizenship, you are still liable for SIX YEARS U.S. income tax filing and payment AFTER leaving the USA permanently!

I know of ways to get around this, since I would be running my own company wherever I live, but it's absolutely ABSURD to even have to avoid taxation like this!! I have lots of friends from all over the world, and not a single one of them has to pay tax on their income earned OUTSIDE their home country. Most don't even have to file anything when they're earning abroad. I swear this nation has the most asinine tax code ever written!!

I feel a sudden urge to sing the national anthem...... hah!




posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 03:52 AM
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I hope I have time to reply to this in more detail soon but I agree 100%, the US and their (our) tax system is criminal! I pay rediculous amounts of taxes on income that I earn outside the US, I don't own property there any more and haven't been in the US for more than a week at a time or more than 21 days a year in the last 6 year.

But for you and your child, It is insane they could even dare think about taxing a citizen of another country, not born in the US, simply because they have one USC parent...


I have been toying with the idea of renouncing my citizenship for a few years but finding a country that would issue a passport that would allow me the freedom to travel as much as I do and one that I didn't have to marry a girl from that country is near impossible...so i keep on paying, although I have been filing very late the last few years...which is causing other problems...ugh, more on this later if I can.

a reply to: 8675309jenny



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 04:48 AM
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a reply to: 8675309jenny


If this fact patterns applies to you, to do nothing, simply means that you will have a growing problem to eventually contend with. You may conclude that the IRS will never find out that you, or your father or mother were born in the US, but we are in an age of increasing international financial transparency and coordination between tax authorities, you simply do not know what could surface and when. If your affairs bring you to the US a spotlight will shine on this problem as reporting your place of birth is required for most visa and similar applications.

Haha... basically they're saying they can't do anything about it unless you travel to the US. Simple solution is just to stay away from the US and pay no attention to their ridiculous legal threats.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 04:53 AM
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a reply to: 8675309jenny

The IRS knows they lose about $40 billion a year from illegal immigrants filing for child tax credit and not even reporting earnings. They max it at about $25k per person.

They still allow it....so not sure how this is even a big deal.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 04:55 AM
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The best thing to do is get all the homeland sightseeing you ever want to do, done and then get the heck out of there. Of course, there are worse places in the world to be, but also better - much better.

It's funny that that would raise the thought of patriotism and heartfelt feelings of our childhoods and all that rubbish but lets' face it - that is all gone and blown to smithereens now, anyway.

Don't let any of that hold you back from your own decision, based on the future and not the past.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 05:08 AM
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originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: 8675309jenny


If this fact patterns applies to you, to do nothing, simply means that you will have a growing problem to eventually contend with. You may conclude that the IRS will never find out that you, or your father or mother were born in the US, but we are in an age of increasing international financial transparency and coordination between tax authorities, you simply do not know what could surface and when. If your affairs bring you to the US a spotlight will shine on this problem as reporting your place of birth is required for most visa and similar applications.

Haha... basically they're saying they can't do anything about it unless you travel to the US. Simple solution is just to stay away from the US and pay no attention to their ridiculous legal threats.



there it is right there...i wonder what they would do if i burnt my U.S passport...extradite me ....lol...i left the country when i was 5 and have no intentions on returning



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 05:35 AM
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Move to your girlfriends country .. in some countries citizenship follows the mother if the child is born there .. also if youve been outside the u.s more than five years prior to the birth of the child the child does not get automatic u.s citizenship .. unless theyve changed the rules theres always creative ways around them ..



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 05:48 AM
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a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed


there it is right there...i wonder what they would do if i burnt my U.S passport...extradite me ....lol...i left the country when i was 5 and have no intentions on returning


Burning your American passport alone is not enough; you need to formally renounce your citizenship with the local US embassy or consulate. If your parents emigrated with you at five, it is possible they have already taken this step for you.

I strongly disagree with this policy, and it has adversely affected my personal life, but I believe the rationale is that American citizenship is so valuable that it is only fair that citizens should be happy to pay for it, wherever they choose to live. After all, you can do whatever you want anywhere you want and if it gets you in trouble, they will send in the Marines.*

*Subject to socio-economic class and political influence, of course.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:03 AM
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a reply to: DJW001

It doesn't seem so long ago - actually, it wasn't that long ago - that to be an American citizen was like being a Roman citizen way back when it meant you were almost untouchable and so, so lucky.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's head is spinning with how fast that all unravelled. It's just...bewildering. How? How did it happen?

Can anyone even say when it happened - it just sort of crept up on everyone.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:10 AM
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originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
a reply to: DJW001

It doesn't seem so long ago - actually, it wasn't that long ago - that to be an American citizen was like being a Roman citizen way back when it meant you were almost untouchable and so, so lucky.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's head is spinning with how fast that all unravelled. It's just...bewildering. How? How did it happen?

Can anyone even say when it happened - it just sort of crept up on everyone.



When Jimmy Carter did not send the Marines into Tehran to retake the Embassy, followed by Reagan's withdrawal from Lebanon following the Embassy bombing there.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:12 AM
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From what I have read, it is really hard to renounce your citizenship in the U.S.

If they get around to securing the borders, it will probably be to keep the citizens in, not illegals out.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:15 AM
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a reply to: DJW001

interesting....when i travel it is on my u.k passport...or what is known now as a European passport....i have little to no interest to return to the states...tbh i am quite happy in my little piece of aussie paradise and my children have a much greater degree and chance of life in this part of the world...and those marines would look kinda strange around these parts.....sometimes i feel lucky that i have no homeland as such ...i would like to think we are all citizen of the earth...but some serious changes need to happen for that to be a reality



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:23 AM
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originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
The best thing to do is get all the homeland sightseeing you ever want to do, done and then get the heck out of there. Of course, there are worse places in the world to be, but also better - much better.

It's funny that that would raise the thought of patriotism and heartfelt feelings of our childhoods and all that rubbish but lets' face it - that is all gone and blown to smithereens now, anyway.

Don't let any of that hold you back from your own decision, based on the future and not the past.


Oh I have no special affinity for the U.S. anymore for sure. It's a sinking ship and I have no desire to raise our child(ren) here. It's amazing how they treat the citizens like horses pulling a wagon and then have the audacity to act like we should be grateful... haha

Every time I've spent a few weeks outside the country I've seen the light clearly. It's funny how you can't tell the roof is on fire from inside the house....

edit on 22-8-2014 by 8675309jenny because: typo



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:35 AM
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a reply to: 8675309jenny

You are completely right OP

and yet bunch of ATS members will show up with uncanny ability to always see things the way US government sees things.

Watch out



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:43 AM
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I learned of this at tax time.

Did you know that the USs tax laws are causing banks to decide it's easier to stop doing business with American citizens?

I was reading the horror stories people were going through for hours! I couldn't believe the stupidity of some of the laws.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 07:38 AM
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originally posted by: Iamthatbish
I learned of this at tax time.

Did you know that the USs tax laws are causing banks to decide it's easier to stop doing business with American citizens?

I was reading the horror stories people were going through for hours! I couldn't believe the stupidity of some of the laws.



Yes, it is true. If you live overseas and have a bank account of $10,000.00 or more, you must report it to the IRS, its the law now.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 07:44 AM
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a reply to: musicismagic

How can they find out if you don't bother to report it?



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 07:44 AM
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So only 2 other nations pay income tax?

Never mind, I get it. It's own citizens.
edit on 22-8-2014 by Hoosierdaddy71 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 07:51 AM
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a reply to: 8675309jenny

Congratulations, by the way!



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 08:27 AM
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a reply to: 8675309jenny

Let me help you with a few facts.

The FACTA act puts your kid on the hook, whether born here or abroad. I have a cousin born and raised in Austria, that at age 40 was targeted by the IRS for taxes going all the way back to when he was 16 years old! He has never been to America, and while he knows English because of his mother, it isn't his first language. His mother (my relative) has never went back to America. FACTA also puts his wife and children on the hook as well, as they are also required once age 16 to file taxes individually, and his spouse and him together. If not the IRS can lien everybody.

You having a business puts you in a WORSE situation, as the IRS can put a lien against that as well, as well as say you are hoarding hidden income. If you are not in France, you can be extridited back to the states for Tax Evasion. Study Wesley Snipes business dealings in Korea, and what they did to him and his wife, a Korean born citizen. (I know he went down for not reporting earnings while living in Korea, but look at what they did to his businesses AFTER throwing him in jail, and his wife's businesses).

You CANNOT renounce your citizenship without the expressed written and verbal consent of the IRS, the State Department, and the Embassy. I have the documents as I was going in process to do this to move to my mate's country of origin (who is going through # with the IRS right now over an estate in their home country) and pretty much each of those entities has the right to deny you the absolution of your citizenship. Just keep that in mind.

So for everybody thinking America is so fukcing great, yeah you can have it.



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