Good manners can now get you suspended

So if I say "Get away from me you repulsive viral dispersion meat bag. Hail Satan!" Would that be more acceptable?

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
a reply to: SuperFrog

Some traditions - not all. I think it might be time we began to realise that if we don't stand up now and say no to this ridiculousness, it will continue until there is nothing left but someone else's traditions.

Thank you,

a reply to: eeyipes

It seems to me that a person that gets so offended by a bless you, has a lot of deep seated hatred ingrained in them.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: eeyipes

It seems to me that a person that gets so offended by a bless you, has a lot of deep seated hatred ingrained in them.

Yep, exactly. If 'bless you' offended someone, I can only imagine the shock and horror they felt at the sneeze.

Somebody, get me my smelling salts!

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: eeyipes

It seems to me that a person that gets so offended by a bless you, has a lot of deep seated hatred ingrained in them.

I don't know that someone is "offended" by it, or that it has anything at all to do with hatred. There are rules in school about disruption and kids are there to learn, not make a case for religious rights.

(I say "bless you" all the time.)

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: eeyipes

It seems to me that a person that gets so offended by a bless you, has a lot of deep seated hatred ingrained in them.

I don't know that someone is "offended" by it, or that it has anything at all to do with hatred. There are rules in school about disruption and kids are there to learn, not make a case for religious rights.

(I say "bless you" all the time.)

It's not easy to turn off so many years worth of benign tradition, is it? How on earth can we possibly expect our kids to not follow the example we set for them without even realizing were are doing it?

Why should we change?

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: eeyipes

It seems to me that a person that gets so offended by a bless you, has a lot of deep seated hatred ingrained in them.

I don't think anyone was offended in this story. This looks like there was a rule in the classroom not to say the expression, "bless you" for religious reasons. The girl decided to challenge that rule in the middle of class instead of, say, talking to the teacher in private about it or going to the principal about it. She got suspended and now is crying foul. Again, this is a teenager we are talking about here. Their entire time spent as teenagers is spent challenging authority. I know I'm not so far removed from being a teenager that I probably would have done something similar if in a similar situation (I did a few things during high school to confront and challenge bad teachers' bad policies).

a reply to: Krazysh0t

what? they have a rule?

Seriously? about bless you?

Who thinks this crap up?

Well then that girl is just a radical.

lol

You don't see the irony in all this?

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Krazysh0t

what? they have a rule?

Seriously? about bless you?

Who thinks this crap up?

Well then that girl is just a radical.

lol

You don't see the irony in all this?

Sexless idiots think this crap up.

Oh well no use debating this, you guys go ahead.

Just Another depressing day

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
It's not easy to turn off so many years worth of benign tradition, is it? How on earth can we possibly expect our kids to not follow the example we set for them without even realizing were are doing it?

She was shouting it across the room to make a point. This isn't the case of her saying it once and realizing she broke the rule. She willfully broke the rule to make a point.

a reply to: BasementWarriorKryptonite

Hard for me to believe it has gone this far, ridiculous.

god bless ya all

I'll take a blessing anytime someone wants to bestow it on me, lord knows I need one today.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

I do. Read my posts from the first page. I have no problem with people saying bless you. But if there was a rule in the classroom (no matter how unreasonable), she should be obeying it during class time. If she wanted to challenge the rule, there are perfectly valid and mature ways to go about doing it. But again, she is a teenager who by the characteristic of being a teenager is immature and went the route of the most confrontational. THEN when she gets suspended for acting out, she goes to the media to bitch and moan.

This is just a story of an immature girl using an immature tactic to challenge a bad policy then getting what she deserved (suspension, in-class at that). If she had decided to act more maturely about challenging the rule, then maybe I'd be a bit more sympathetic towards her cause. It is after all a terrible rule.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

What if a Satan Worshiper kid wanted to shout across the room, "All Hail Satan"! whenever another kid sneezed?

It'd be funnier 'n Hell!! LOL

I bet kids would start running out of the classroom to sneeze.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: halfpint0701

That very well may be the case, but that's not how the article presented the situation. Also, Superfrog's post just above mine seems to suggest that this girl was urged by her Pastor to rebel in class against this rule.

How about this line of events?:
1. Person sneezes.
2. Girl says "bless you" loud enough for the teacher to hear on purpose because she knows she isn't allowed to say it.
3. Teacher calls her out and says that that expression isn't allowed.
4. Girl defends her speech by saying its her religious right.
5. Teacher suspends student for being disruptive and confrontational.

Keep in mind we are talking about teenagers here. The age group that THRIVES on being confrontational.

I think there is a lot more to the story than represented in the papers. I have quoted KrazyshOt here because I believe this is very likely how things played out.

How can I be sure? I wasn't there but I am a teacher of this age group. I know exactly how a story can be taken completely out of context and how a seemingly innocent comment can derail a lesson completely.

My job is to help 25 to 30 pupils an hour which, broken down, gives me less than 2 minutes individual attention per pupil. Obviously we try to teach to the class to save time and then help those individuals who are struggling on an individual one-on-one basis.

The story says

the school leaders claim the outburst was a classroom distraction and that she shouted “bless you” across the room

and from experience I know that the tone and timing of such a comment and action can be (but not always) deliberate to cause confrontation and disruption - again to emphasis what KrazyshOt says "Keep in mind we are talking about teenagers here. The age group that THRIVES on being confrontational".

In my school swearing is unacceptable and this is a very firm rule throughout the school, for both teachers and students. However, and I am not saying I encourage or approve, I will allow the odd swear word to pass without comment DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES. A student who is trying to complete work, putting in the effort to understand, plugging away at something difficult in order to master it, getting frustrated by his/her lack of understanding and whispers or mutters an unacceptable word in desperation and frustration - that is the student whose slip up I will ignore and let slide. They are trying hard to grasp the learning they need and I will give them support in that endeavour. The word they have used might be habit or exposure to use at home and the MANNER IN WHICH IT IS USED is unintentional, not meant to offend, not meant to disrupt and not meant to insult. As an adult I need to make the distinction and support the pupil in what they need, i.e. understanding their learning, not a reprimand and further distraction from the topic at hand by focusing on a minor and already forgotten slip of the tongue.

However, on the other hand, there are times when offence is deliberate, and many teenagers will simply love to disrupt a lesson on purpose for any number of reasons, from getting out of doing the work, appearing to be the big man to their friends, amusement, teenage orneriness and moodiness, or deliberate confrontation with authority.

As the girl had discussed this issue with her pastor in the weeks before the incident:

This was something that had come up previously in the last few weeks just since the beginning of school and I shared with all of those students what their rights were,” added Winegardner.

I am leaning towards believing her actions were a deliberate attempt to disrupt, insult and confront. As a teacher with up to 29 other students who have other priorities (i.e. not being entertained by their classmate's agenda, but a passing grade later in the year) my reaction in that case would have been similar to the teacher in the story.

However, I also have to weigh up the consequences of dealing with a deliberate attempt at confrontation or letting it go. Dealing with the incident very likely resulted in the complete loss of all effort put in to that lesson by the teacher and all other students. I believe the other pupils came out of that lesson remembering the big issue of "Kendra taking on Miss/Sir" rather than the subject matter they were supposed to learn.

There is a line we as teachers need to identify - when to deal with the incident and when not to. Not dealing with it in this case, sounds to me, like the girl would have escalated her confrontation and deliberate attempts at drawing attention to the stupid rule. Whether the rule is stupid, unjust or unfair is irrelevant to me. What is important is the safety and care and inspiration of ALL the pupils in my class and if I face a threat to that today, in this lesson, or potentially in the future if left unchecked, then I need to respond.

And incidentally, I DO think it is a stupid and unfair rule.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
It's not easy to turn off so many years worth of benign tradition, is it? How on earth can we possibly expect our kids to not follow the example we set for them without even realizing were are doing it?

She was shouting it across the room to make a point. This isn't the case of her saying it once and realizing she broke the rule. She willfully broke the rule to make a point.

I guess she was just being disruptive.

Congress AKA "The Government" is limited by the first amendment - not the people! Reading the amendment quoted below one should read in plain English that this amendment empowers the people to express themselves regardless of law, rule or opinion otherwise.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

That's very straight forward language especially "prohibiting free exercise thereof;" nowhere in this amendment can one find any language that limits the peoples expression of religion, its actually quite the opposite.

The first amendment says nothing about the so-called separation of church and state doctrine which is a made up idea used to limit religious speech in an unconstitutional manner.

The student was well within her rights no matter the rule or teachers opinion.

a reply to: Mura44

Thank you. You just said what I've been trying to get at but much better than I could of thanks to your professional experience with dealing with this age group.

So she fought back against the rules, so if this was an atheist student proclaiming they were offend by someone wearing a cross, that would be just fine.

Fricken intolerant double standards prevalent today in our society, you can only push people so far and they are going to push back.

“There were several students who were talking about this particular faculty member there that was very demeaning to them in regard to their faith,”

Some classmates showed support Tuesday by wearing hand made bless you shirts.

And they have a right to do so IMHO.

originally posted by: Mura44





There is a line we as teachers need to identify - when to deal with the incident and when not to. Not dealing with it in this case, sounds to me, like the girl would have escalated her confrontation and deliberate attempts at drawing attention to the stupid rule. Whether the rule is stupid, unjust or unfair is irrelevant to me. What is important is the safety and care and inspiration of ALL the pupils in my class and if I face a threat to that today, in this lesson, or potentially in the future if left unchecked, then I need to respond.

And incidentally, I DO think it is a stupid and unfair rule.

The rule is blatantly unconstitutional and deserved challenge by the student. There is case after case of legal precedent backing up her right not to follow an unconstitutional rule or law.

Last I heard students didn't check their constitutional rights at the door when entering the school although that seems to be what administrators and government wants everyone to believe.

I wonder if students were taught US Constitution in a better fashion that it would lead to better understanding rather than chaos caused by uber controlling rules of No Tolerance which lead to this kind of stupidity by the school and virtually forces this kind of incident.