CFR: Ukraine Crisis, It's the Wests Fault

a reply to: DJW001

Then we're agreed, military intimidation is bad. Never said or even suggested otherwise. Your point however is not applicable to this thread.

You did not bother to read the article I linked to, so I know you're just spinning.

Actually I did click the link and I found it very well written. Also read many of the comments. Basically they were pretty much in agreement that "Hey, we tricked them and we won! Who care what Russia says."

You are correct though the added title descriptor was not part of the article title I'll grant it was also not an editorial addition by you. My apologies for that I was out of line.

Basically this article is validation of my world view. Power from any country or group comes either through trickery, lies, manipulation or as we've seen recently at the end of a gun. My point is their are evil bastards everywhere, I'm just humiliated and despondent that my country seems to have no honor. Call me an idealist.

originally posted by: victor7
www.liveleak.com...

Idiots leaving families to walk into a "real mess".

When the other side involved is US or Russia or any other major regional power...........then better pack the goodies and head to the woods. That would boost your chances of survival and come back in one piece

They look extremely worried and dazzled, total lack of motivation and without a fighting spirit...they are not into it.

I`m sure they will face a force with a way different mindset. If this is what it has to do for you Kiev...think again.

Nobody has spoken of the part that NGO's have played a part in the ousting of Yanukovych and the Ukraine crisis, especially Goerge Soros influence in these.

George Soros told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria over the weekend he is responsible for establishing a foundation in Ukraine that ultimately contributed to the overthrow of the country’s elected leader and the installation of a junta handpicked by the State Department.

“First on Ukraine, one of the things that many people recognized about you was that you during the revolutions of 1989 funded a lot of dissident activities, civil society groups in eastern Europe and Poland, the Czech Republic. Are you doing similar things in Ukraine?” Zakaria asked Soros.

“Well, I set up a foundation in Ukraine before Ukraine became independent of Russia. And the foundation has been functioning ever since and played an important part in events now,” Soros responded.

George Soros admits to funding the Ukraine crisis
CNN Transcript

Granted he's a civilian, a very wealth globalist civilian. I submit he's of the same mind as the other globalist manipulators that are in almost complete control of the US/EU/Central Banks. These are the true enemy IMO. and goes a long way to putting the pieces in place.

a reply to: Bassago

You are correct though the added title descriptor was not part of the article title I'll grant it was also not an editorial addition by you. My apologies for that I was out of line.

Nice save. Be seeing you....

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: DJW001

Did I say I have BBS software? How do you suppose you and I are able to post on this BBS? This site runs software that we use. It didn't seem to like a ling string of "alt control" characters. What makes you think I'm not taking things seriously?

Fortunately this isn't the place for an explanation of how the Internet works, its far too involved...Suffice to say; BBS's died completely back in the early 1990's. And, no you don't have BBS software...this internet site uses what is known as LAMP stack technology. The web site itself is a computer application that runs on the ATS servers.

I am not the one simultaneously denying that there are Russian troops in eastern Ukraine... while cheering them on. I am puzzled by your use of the word "data." I have posted no data at all. When I require information to support my analysis or opinion, it is never raw data, and I am honest about the source. I never link to a blog that is intentionally distorting facts; if so, please show me an instance.

Yes that is obvious to ALL. And, that is part of the problem, you post no evidence, no data of any sort, and your links post no data either. So, how are we to properly evaluate your data if we can't see it? AND, after that I will also want to know what protocols you used...

I'm the one who is not taking things seriously? FAQ = Foreign Affairs Quarterly, the journal of the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations). It is the topic of this thread.

Oh, but of course...I was confused because the CFR seems to have left out the "Quarterly" part and decided on 6 issues per year. You should investigate the concept of "Convention" it is truly wonderful...makes such things as "FAQ" take on additional meaning...and makes it possible for it to mean the same thing to everyone as in: FAQ ... Frequently Asked Question (the current most popular convention for FAQ).

Re-read what you just posted in the context of your legend. Good night.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

The Separatists have launched a serious offensive and seem to have encircled 3 large Ukrainian groupings.

Most of these units are standard Ukes Army, they are not motivated by raw hate that volunteer battalions financed by billionaires are. Chances of them caving in are high than other fascist groups i.e. private armies. Donbass Battalion was kicked out of Ilovaisk and is now encircled also. But the commander, who is in the hospital, would not surrender as he says they have enough weapons to fight on and probably enough food too. Today he sent a rude letter to Kiev Defense Minister to send additional forces to relieve his troops in an encircled boiler. He also wrote an open facebook plea to Red Cross to evacuate 11 badly wounded fascists of his battalion before morning as they may perish without medical help.

Wonder his billionaire financier Kolomoisky is going to send a helicopter to pull his wounded Nazis out. Although in the spirit of soldiers and humanity, rebels should offer to take these wounded guys and get them medical help. That these guys belong to private fascist army, the chances of such kindness might be lower.

Porky Poro might offer a cease fire but rebels being on the momentum might not accept it.

a reply to: DJW001

Not a save, just the truth. Now let's take a look at that link you provided and see what it says in light of what's happening today. From your link:

Gorbachev even raised the idea of having the Soviet Union join NATO. “You say that NATO is not directed against us, that it is simply a security structure that is adapting to new realities,” Gorbachev told Baker in May, according to Soviet records. “Therefore, we propose to join NATO.” Baker refused to consider such a notion, replying dismissively, “Pan-European security is a dream.”

Hmm so Russia actually wanted to join NATO but that idea was DOA. I wonder why that was? So what's NATO doing today I wonder, let's take a look.

Nato is to deploy its forces at new bases in eastern Europe for the first time, in response to the Ukraine crisis and in an attempt to deter Vladimir Putin from causing trouble in the former Soviet Baltic republics, according to its secretary general.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen said the organisations's summit in Cardiff next week would overcome divisions within the alliance and agree to new deployments on Russia's borders.

Nato plans east European bases to counter Russian threat

I submit that with the original blocking of Russia in joining NATO, expansion eastward under the guise of “special military status" along with continuing news of NATO's interference along the borders of Russia prove the point in the OP of the Wests ultimate design of the encirclement of Russia by NATO powers.

Edit - But we all know that this really isnt the "first" expansion of NATO in regard to former Soviet States right? Looks like slow encirclement to me. Especially with today's news.

New membership in the alliance has been largely from Eastern Europe and the Balkans, including former members of the Warsaw Pact.

Wiki..

Disclaimer : It might be all propaganda, some or most of it might be, or it might be true. With lack of Western media doing actual reporting on what`s going on, it`s all we got.

Greeks Fighting Alongside Donetsk People’s Republic Militia - Reports

ATHENS, August 27 (RIA Novosti) – Volunteers from Greece are among the representatives of various nationalities in the ranks of the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) indepedence forces, the Athens Courier newspaper reported.

According to the newspaper, there is a large community of Greeks in the east of Ukraine, who have suffered as much as other residents of the region and many of them fled for Russia’s Rostov and Kuban regions.

“Pontic Greeks, who live in Greece, should be concerned with the fate of the Greeks living in Mariupol, which is trapped under the shelling [and other firing] of the Kiev-Lviv punishers,” the paper reported.

It is also noted in the paper that apart from Greeks, two battalions of Serbs and even 25 US citizens are fighting for “traditional human values” alongside militia in southeast Ukraine.

According to earlier reports, within the Vostok Battalion, DPR’s most prominent defense force, are volunteers from Spain, Italy, France, Spain, Canada, Russia and Poland.

en.ria.ru...

Problems Kiev...?

Ukraine Counting on Assistance From NATO – Prime Minister Yatsenyuk

KIEV, August 27 (RIA Novosti) – Kiev is expecting that the West will make crucial decisions at a NATO summit in Wales, Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said Wednesday. “President of Ukraine will attend the NATO summit. NATO is our partner. We expect practical assistance and monumental decisions from our Western partners at the summit, which will take place September 4. We need help,” Yatsenyuk said.

en.ria.ru...

Donetsk fighters make further advances on Ukrainian troops

en.itar-tass.com...

High Morale, Experience Behind Militia’s Successes in Eastern Ukraine

en.ria.ru...

Latest maps with Kiev and Separatist claimed hold territory, the one of Kiev at least seems silly, they must really suck if they can`t break out of that tiny encirclement. If the Separatist reports are somewhat right, their map seems to be a bit more accurate, but that`s only based on their reports, so take it at face value. :

en.ria.ru...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Interesting news. Not sure how much can be relied on though, as with the Western MSM the.. uh, "inaccuracy" in reporting leaves a bit of wiggle room of actual events. I do believe the DPR may be making headway simply due the the squealing coming out of Poroshenko's mouth.

The maps were interesting and were close to what I saw on ZeroHedge a couple days ago.

Here's a photo from the meeting that just occurred. Supposedly the caption was something like "Belarus president Lukashenko promising to Poroshenko that Putin doesn't really bite." Now I don't know but it looks like Putin is sizing up a chicken nugget for lunch to me.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Thanks for the link of PM begging NATO for help.

These bootlickers are actually fighting for Anglosaxons and their designs on Russia and rest of the world.

When soldiers and conscripts fight for some other cause than their own then performances go lacking and events like jumping the ship etc. start to happen a bit too often.

a reply to: Bassago

LMAO !

If true and they keep on pushing, they would be relieving Donetsk and Lugansk at a certain point from shelling. I know at least one Dutch reporter from the main news who`s at Lugansk, so maybe he would be confirming that later on.

Ukraine invading Russia, or are they just bringing humanitarian aid ?

en.itar-tass.com...

Interesting piece if you look around the usual Western propaganda :

So even NATO can`t deal with Russia, WTF ?

Ukraine crisis: Nato plans east European bases to counter Russia

Rasmussen......." In an interview with the Guardian and five other European newspapers, he said: "It is safe to say that nobody had expected Russia to grab land by force. We also saw a remarkable change in the Russian military approach and capability since, for instance, the Georgian war in 2008.

"We have seen the Russians improve their ability to act swiftly. They can within a very, very, short time convert a major military exercise into an offensive military operation."

Quite clearly, Russia is involved in destabilising eastern Ukraine … You see a sophisticated combination of traditional conventional warfare mixed up with information and primarily disinformation operations. It will take more than Nato to counter such hybrid warfare effectively."

If western leaders have been surprised and also impressed by the sudden display of Russian military prowess, Ukraine, by contrast, is in a pitiful condition militarily, according to Nato officials.

"If we are two steps behind the Russians, the Ukrainians are 16 steps behind," said a Nato source recently in Kiev. "Their generals just want to blow everything up. But it's not a shooting war, it's an information war."

www.theguardian.com...

'Germans fed up with NATO allies & US wars' – Frmr Defense Secretary

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Interesting piece if you look around the usual Western propaganda :

And what is propaganda about it?

So even NATO can`t deal with Russia, WTF ?

Well up until earlier this year Russia was an ally and working with NATO on certain things, so they didn't know Russia was going to invade Crimea and start and back the separatists. Hard to deal with something that comes up like this did with Russia.

Just as Russia said it's nobodies concern what he does with troops in Russia, NATO has the same ideology as it isn't anyone's concern how they deploy troops to their bases.

And in case you missed this...

Poland and the three Baltic states have been alarmed at the perceived threat from Russia and have been clamouring for a stronger Nato presence in the region.

www.theguardian.com...

That is why they are moving troops into that area of the world.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I already posted Poland and the three Baltic states are scared of humanitarian aid convoys...but that`s not propaganda according to you...and the majority of German and Dutch populations are also wrong about the lies...?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Just as Russia said it's nobodies concern what he does with troops in Russia, NATO has the same ideology as it isn't anyone's concern how they deploy troops to their bases.

That is only partially correct. When two powers have mammoth nuclear arsenal, then it really helps to not keep troops eyeing each other like in the Korean case.

It would be a waste of resources for NATO to permanently put troops in E. European bases. Everyone knows where Russia has drawn its line on the map i.e. its near abroad. Beyond that E. Europe or Central Europe is beyond Russia's political or economic interests.

a reply to: victor7

There is no such thing as a Russian Near Abroad". If you keep pushing that concept they you must accept every country that borders Russia has their own "near abroad" and as such can do what it takes to defend it. Like NATO countries that border Russia who now feel threatened by Russian aggression allowing NATO bases inside their country.

After all those countries would only be protecting their near abroad not to mention what occurs inside their borders is none of Russia's business.

Whats a waste of time is Russia trying to bully former SSR's. As has been stated time and again the more idiotic Russia gets the more they push surrounding nations to the west / EU / NATO.

As an example - NATO purposely did not put NATO facilities in NATO countries bordering Russia. Now that Russia is gung ho on invading Ukraine, the end result is NATO placing NATO installations inside sovereign nations who are members of NATO. With this direct action on Ukraine by Russia I am all for Ukraine as well as Georgia joining NATO. Especially if it means Russia will leave them alone.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Well if you reject the 'near abroad' argument then it makes much sense to declare the break up of USSR as an illegal act. It was done without the general consensus of people anyways.

That gives Russia and Kremlin the right to re-secure the boundaries of the USSR in the areas that it chooses to.

The real idiots in the case of Ukraine have been the Junta in Kiev. I have not seen such high degree of blatant stupidness in political circles or may be Saddam trying to go nose to nose with US was another example. Day after day they are making decisions that make them look like stupid illiterate thugs at best.

Today NATO openly told that it has no obligation to protect or wage war on behalf of Ukraine. NATO can choose to if Kiev desires but NATO is wise enough. Picking war with Russia over a non-NATO member would be a really stupid move.

en.ria.ru...

originally posted by: victor7

Well if you reject the 'near abroad' argument then it makes much sense to declare the break up of USSR as an illegal act. It was done without the general consensus of people anyways.

Except for the fact the collapse of the USSR resulted in those occupied countries regaining their independence from the USSR.


The collapse of the USSR was lawful in that Russia and the other SSR's signed the documents ending the SSR and restoring sovereign status to those occupied countries.

Why is Putin just now whining about the former USSR? How long has he been Dictator in Chief? 12 years about now.

Why now? What was he waiting for? Or could it be he is using that excuse to try and cover a new policy of aggression from Russia with a policy of invasion should former SSR's not give in to Putins demands.

originally posted by: victor7
That gives Russia and Kremlin the right to re-secure the boundaries of the USSR in the areas that it chooses to.

No it doesn't. If you want to adopt that then all former SSR's, in addition to eastern European nations, have a right to seize land the USSR appropriated.

originally posted by: victor7
The real idiots in the case of Ukraine have been the Junta in Kiev. I have not seen such high degree of blatant stupidness in political circles or may be Saddam trying to go nose to nose with US was another example. Day after day they are making decisions that make them look like stupid illiterate thugs at best.

You keep saying Junta even though Russia has recognized the government of Kiev. Russia is the one who invaded Ukraine and Ukraine has every right under the UN charter to repel that invasion. That includes Pro Russian groups being supported by Moscow. The only stupid move was by Putin thinking he could act like its the 1980's and that Ukraine is an SSR and not a sovereign nation. Something Putin had to learn the hard way.


You may think the Ukraine is acting stupidly, but what you are missing is they are a sovereign nation and are entitled to act in what they think is their best interest..

I don't think Ukraine acting "stupid" is what annoys you. I think its the fact Ukraine is telling Russia no. Something that would not have occurred in the 1980's.

originally posted by: victor7
Today NATO openly told that it has no obligation to protect or wage war on behalf of Ukraine. NATO can choose to if Kiev desires but NATO is wise enough. Picking war with Russia over a non-NATO member would be a really stupid move.

and Russia thinking it can do what it wants without ramifications is also a really stupid move. No obligation to protect does not mean NATO would not act if Russia ramps up their aggression. In that case what you are ignoring is the UN charter, specifically the part where a nation can defend itself and request assistance in doing that. While Ukraine is not a part of NATO, it is an example of just how unstable Putin in and the extent he is willing to go to try and bring back the old soviet empire. Not assisting Ukraine would only delay the inevitable should Russia continue to invade its neighbors over paranoia.

As an example of Putins stupidity is the ban on food. Putin recently ended it by allowing imports of western food items from Kazakhstan and Belarus.

So Putin lips off to the west to "impress" and lie to the Russian people, only to bypass the ban by importing from those 2 countries.

This is why Putin must control the media in Russia. He is playing both sides of the road....

Putins problem is he does not think he is going to be caught... Its a good way to get hit from traffic in both directions at the same time.

Nothing like being an international pariah while being the same at home. Tell me, aside from using direct force on the Russian people how is Putin going to remain in power when they realize Putin lied to them?

a reply to: Xcathdra

NATO trying to fight a war with Russia over a non-NATO nation will surely put NATO's existence in jeopardy. It will take only 1 country among the 28 to reject the idea. Germany is going to be among the early withdrawl from the 'bad project in planning.

Regarding the USSR and its reformation, there are several countries already willing to make similar entity with Russia but Moscow is not too interested.

However, any former USSR republics joining NATO will result in Russians acting in a way which might be similar to recent events. Russia can also make it difficult for NATO nations in other theaters around the world. Not worth trying to tease the bear and hoping to make a giggling dash for the trees. The bears are relentless chasers and the chase could become very bothersome !!