CFR: Ukraine Crisis, It's the Wests Fault

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

On the contrary with US funds, they are proved.

Really? Please provide one jot of evidence that does not reference the Nuland speech. You can't, can you? Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true. Incidentally, your entire post is an off topic ad hom. I can't believe the Mods are letting you two get away with this childish behavior.

Why not answer my questions ?

Not only are they off topic, they are questions you need to ask yourself.

When you guys are claiming we don`t give proof, but we gave it constantly...

When you guys claim of giving proof but you actually don`t...

When you guys are twisting facts all the time...

...and it`s all done in this topic, it`s on topic...

So my questions are legit, but I can conclude you don`t want to give them...?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

When you guys are claiming we don`t give proof, but we gave it constantly...

Stop deflecting: I just asked you for your "proof" of "United States funds" that does not involve the speech by Nuland. You refuse to, because you cannot. Instead, you try to drag to thread further off topic with personal insults. When I was challenged to provide evidence that the Crimean election was rigged, all I had to do was post a copy of the ballot, yet you refuse to accept the reality of it. Do you really think that an objective reader cannot tell what is really going on here?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

When you guys are claiming we don`t give proof, but we gave it constantly...

Stop deflecting: I just asked you for your "proof" of "United States funds" that does not involve the speech by Nuland. You refuse to, because you cannot. Instead, you try to drag to thread further off topic with personal insults. When I was challenged to provide evidence that the Crimean election was rigged, all I had to do was post a copy of the ballot, yet you refuse to accept the reality of it. Do you really think that an objective reader cannot tell what is really going on here?

Straight from the horse her mouth isn`t proof anymore...?

How is that ballot giving any proof it was rigged ?

And it`s safe to say, you are not going to answer my questions, as you did before...see the difference between you and me, I actually respond to your questions.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Straight from the horse her mouth isn`t proof anymore...?

Are you saying that Nuland never lies? In that case, that five billion was only used on things that benefited Ukraine, right?

How is that ballot giving any proof it was rigged ?

Because it proves that the Crimeans could not vote in favor of genuine independence. It couldn't be more rigged than that. (Never mind the alleged leak of the real polling results.)

Now stop projecting your own deceptive practices onto others, please.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Straight from the horse her mouth isn`t proof anymore...?

Are you saying that Nuland never lies? In that case, that five billion was only used on things that benefited Ukraine, right?

How is that ballot giving any proof it was rigged ?

Because it proves that the Crimeans could not vote in favor of genuine independence. It couldn't be more rigged than that. (Never mind the alleged leak of the real polling results.)

Now stop projecting your own deceptive practices onto others, please.

Those things need to come from both sides, so lets make a deal, we both stop doing it and start discussing facts from now on ?

a reply to: tanka418

Ya see!?! This is what I have been getting when ever I ask for serious evidence...worthless bits of text and image, none of which can be corroborated, or checked in any way...absolutely worthless.

www.unian.ua...

Actual research 1, lazy rhetoric 0.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Those things needs to come from both sides, so lets make a deal, we both stop doing it and start discussing facts from now on ?

I have been discussing facts, and you have been evading them. You have no source for "US funds" other than a speech that has been taken out of context and used for propaganda purposes. Elsewhere, I have linked to a site that accounts for how United States government money is used, and pointed out that Nuland's figure probably also includes money spent by the private sector on infrastructure development and energy exploration. What has Putin ever done for the Ukrainian people?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Those things needs to come from both sides, so lets make a deal, we both stop doing it and start discussing facts from now on ?

I have been discussing facts, and you have been evading them. You have no source for "US funds" other than a speech that has been taken out of context and used for propaganda purposes. Elsewhere, I have linked to a site that accounts for how United States government money is used, and pointed out that Nuland's figure probably also includes money spent by the private sector on infrastructure development and energy exploration. What has Putin ever done for the Ukrainian people?

- Putin has send aid and is going to do it again

- Putin has searched for a peaceful solution in the Ukraine from the beginning

- Putin saved the people of Crimea from a fascist goverment

- "energy exploration," I`m not even going to comment on that

- Russia Gives Ukraine Financial Lifeline Amid Protests

world.time.com...

- US accounts on how money is spend...?

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

- Putin has send aid and is going to do it again

Yes, I suppose surface to air missiles are aid.

- Putin has searched for a peaceful solution in the Ukraine from the beginning

So has John Kerry.

- Putin saved the people of Crimea from a fascist goverment

I thought you said the Crimeans held the referendum on their own. In any event, the Kyiv government is not Fascist. The Russian government is. Putin appoints all the governors and the Duma only rubber stamps Putin's orders. Any criticism of the regime can result in being jailed, or even murdered. Let's see how grateful the Crimeans are this time next year.

- "energy exploration," I`m not even going to comment on that

Why? Because it might enrich the Ukrainian economy the way it has Russia's? It is obvious Putin has started this mess specifically to prevent Ukraine from becoming a competitor.

- Russia Gives Ukraine Financial Lifeline Amid Protests

Did you even read the article you linked to? It is nine months old. Here is how Ukraine greeted Putin's "aid."

Putin said the countries agreed that Moscow would buy $15 billion of Ukrainian government bonds, the Associated Press reports. Russia will also sharply reduce — by 33% — the price of natural-gas exports to the country, providing a lifeline to the government of President Viktor Yanukovych.

But the deal threatens to enrage protesters who have been in the streets since last month, when Yanukovych pulled out of talks with the E.U. in favor of strengthening ties with neighboring Russia. The upheaval in Ukraine — reminiscent of the Orange Revolution nearly a decade ago — has pitched pro-E.U. factions against Yanukovych, whom they accuse of sticking to Soviet-era corruption practices and looking out only for his own political well-being.

Your own source. Whatever happened to Yanukovych? If the Kyiv government executed him, the Russians would propagandize that fact. I guess he must be in Lubyanka for failing his assignment.

- US accounts on how money is spend...?

Seriously? A video about "missing money" from the Bush Administration? Seriously, is that the best you can do? Try doing some research Here, for example, from the horse's mouth.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

Ya see!?! This is what I have been getting when ever I ask for serious evidence...worthless bits of text and image, none of which can be corroborated, or checked in any way...absolutely worthless.

www.unian.ua...

Actual research 1, lazy rhetoric 0.

Thank you ...although; it is a wee bit of; "too little, too late".

actual research: 0.01 - busy engineer: 1

seriously though, thanks; while this can only increase the confidence level of your position by single digits, it is still better than not at all. So FRVO, for almost doing what you should have done all along! Would have been nice to use a image with an appropriate caption though...easer to identify.

I'm finding your data analysis to be seriously "wanting"...you do not use enough corroborated data, and it appears that ALL of your data is from virtually a single source.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

When you guys are claiming we don`t give proof, but we gave it constantly...

Stop deflecting: I just asked you for your "proof" of "United States funds" that does not involve the speech by Nuland. You refuse to, because you cannot. Instead, you try to drag to thread further off topic with personal insults. When I was challenged to provide evidence that the Crimean election was rigged, all I had to do was post a copy of the ballot, yet you refuse to accept the reality of it. Do you really think that an objective reader cannot tell what is really going on here?

Straight from the horse her mouth isn`t proof anymore...?

How is that ballot giving any proof it was rigged ?

And it`s safe to say, you are not going to answer my questions, as you did before...see the difference between you and me, I actually respond to your questions.

In the state in which it is presented...that bit of data is still virtually worthless. Unless you happen to read/speak the language that is only a piece of paper with some ink it. AND, since we have no method of corroboration...the data can not be considered with any useful confidence.

a reply to: tanka418

seriously though, thanks; while this can only increase the confidence level of your position by single digits, it is still better than not at all. So FRVO, for almost doing what you should have done all along! Would have been nice to use a image with an appropriate caption though...easer to identify.

I naturally assumed that anyone swallowing Russian propaganda would naturally be able to read Russian. Apparently, you are simply not well informed. The talking, or perhaps I should say "shouting" points that the three principle pro-Russian contributors to this thread keep raising have been addressed by myself and others countless times on other threads. Since they have raised no new points, I have not bothered to repeat posting links to support my own position. Please note how the pro-Russians hurl personal accusations, but seldom support their arguments themselves.

I'm finding your data analysis to be seriously "wanting"...you do not use enough corroborated data, and it appears that ALL of your data is from virtually a single source.

You must have me confused with someone else. All of the pro-Russian claims, however diverse the blogs they actually link to, ultimately hang on the following:

1. A youtube video of a tape recording of an alleged conversation between Baltic diplomats discussing a rumor that Right Wing snipers were shooting at Maidan protesters.

2. Another unverified tape recording of an alleged conversation between a Ukrainian oligarch and a member of a Right Wing militia.

3. Videos of the Trade House fire that have been edited to leave out the Russian snipers and the Ukrainian rescue attempts.

4. An out of context speech by an American official trying to impress Ukrainian lobbyists.

5. Yet another tape recording of two American diplomats discussing what they would like to see happen after the protests were over. It did not happen the way they wanted, but propagandists continue to use this "evidence."

6. A CGI animation allegedly showing a Russian radar tracking Ukrainian planes performing above their known capability.

7. Various staged videos.

Now Bassago is trying to get you to believe that the Council on Foreign Relations has officially proclaimed that the Russian invasion of Crimea and civil unrest in the East are all the West's fault. Can you imagine the chutzpah?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: tanka418

Ya see!?! This is what I have been getting when ever I ask for serious evidence...worthless bits of text and image, none of which can be corroborated, or checked in any way...absolutely worthless.

Here you go that worthless text you think was posted is discussed here and translated...enjoy.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26514797#ns-panel__section-2

Thank you...how hard was that?

I'm not sure the argument that there are only two possibilities here is valid. While I suppose, from my position of ignorance of Crimean affairs, it might seem that a third, "complete independence", option would be a good thing...more complete / fair. None of us are familiar with life in Crimea, so...I will with hold judgment.

a reply to: tanka418

I'm not sure the argument that there are only two possibilities here is valid. While I suppose, from my position of ignorance of Crimean affairs, it might seem that a third, "complete independence", option would be a good thing...more complete / fair.[

Independence would have been a great thing for Crimea; they had a booming tourist industry, a vital port, they could charge Russia for use of its naval bases and there is probably off-shore gas to be exploited. An independent Crimea with continued good relations with Ukraine would be happy and prosperous. That is why Russia did not put the option on the ballot.

a reply to: Bassago

If everything FAQ publishes is the official position of the CFR, how do you explain this?

A Broken Promise? What the West Really Told Moscow About NATO Expansion

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418


I naturally assumed that anyone swallowing Russian propaganda would naturally be able to read Russian. Apparently, you are simply not well informed. The talking, or perhaps I should say "shouting" points that the three principle pro-Russian contributors to this thread keep raising have been addressed by myself and others countless times on other threads. Since they have raised no new points, I have not bothered to repeat posting links to support my own position. Please note how the pro-Russians hurl personal accusations, but seldom support their arguments themselves.

Wow...really?!!? You assume way too much. Which has probably also tainted your analysis of the current data. Didn't any grown-ups explain the problems associated with "assuming" when you were young? Their bad, your fail for not having figured it out on our own.


Now then about the "accusations, and non-support of data...I see much more of this from your camp...for instance you not being 'bothered' to post your data, or even a link to it...very bad form.

You must have me confused with someone else. All of the pro-Russian claims, however diverse the blogs they actually link to, ultimately hang on the following:

Wholly inaccurate assessment!

1. A youtube video of a tape recording of an alleged conversation between Baltic diplomats discussing a rumor that Right Wing snipers were shooting at Maidan protesters.

2. Another unverified tape recording of an alleged conversation between a Ukrainian oligarch and a member of a Right Wing militia.

3. Videos of the Trade House fire that have been edited to leave out the Russian snipers and the Ukrainian rescue attempts.

4. An out of context speech by an American official trying to impress Ukrainian lobbyists.

5. Yet another tape recording of two American diplomats discussing what they would like to see happen after the protests were over. It did not happen the way they wanted, but propagandists continue to use this "evidence."

6. A CGI animation allegedly showing a Russian radar tracking Ukrainian planes performing above their known capability.

7. Various staged videos.

Now Bassago is trying to get you to believe that the Council on Foreign Relations has officially proclaimed that the Russian invasion of Crimea and civil unrest in the East are all the West's fault. Can you imagine the chutzpah?

I'm not sure what all that is supposed t be...perhaps obfuscation? In any case it does not describe what you purport it to describe.

And, actually what Bassago has done is bring to light data, information, that can seriously affect this whole picture. And while your antics to attempt to disclaim and debunk the words of the CFR have been entertaining, they hardly mean much in a serious data analysis. The fact that the CFR has "seen fit" to promulgate the idea is more than sufficient to give it much more credibility than anything you have presented thus far.

The fact that alternate news sources (not western) seem to corroborate the opposition (Russian news sources) is also rather significant, and unfortunately does great damage to your position. The fact that Western news sources have been proven, not just wrong, but actually lying, also seriously damages or position.

All in all, after factoring in the notion that ALL news sources are necessarily "full of it", I find that the ideas and notions supported by the West are entirely out of order. The West has been caught in to many lies.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

I'm not sure the argument that there are only two possibilities here is valid. While I suppose, from my position of ignorance of Crimean affairs, it might seem that a third, "complete independence", option would be a good thing...more complete / fair.[

Independence would have been a great thing for Crimea; they had a booming tourist industry, a vital port, they could charge Russia for use of its naval bases and there is probably off-shore gas to be exploited. An independent Crimea with continued good relations with Ukraine would be happy and prosperous. That is why Russia did not put the option on the ballot.

No argument here.

a reply to: DJW001

I`m sorry, I should pay more attention to John Kerry and all the good US does in the world. And I was wrong in assuming the protesters where trained fascists and funded by US money. I now understand that it were ordinary civilians getting outraged when Putin offered them help. I also now understand US/EU isn`t actually supporting the Ukrainian people with their weapons supplies.

All of sudden things have become much clearer for me now, I want to thank you for that.

Here`s a map with what`s going on with the war (you can click on it to make it expand) :

Novorossiya Map of Hostilities – August 10-25, 2014

slavyangrad.org...

a reply to: tanka418

The fact that alternate news sources (not western) seem to corroborate the opposition (Russian news sources) is also rather significant, and unfortunately does great damage to your position. The fact that Western news sources have been proven, not just wrong, but actually lying, also seriously damages or position.

The only non-Russian news site that corroborates Russian stories is PressTV. When it comes to the downed airliner, propagandists deliberately interpret Dutch "objectivity," ie; avoiding making strong claims that could result in violent public opinion, for "support." It is not.

If you could find an example of a non-Russian, non-Anti-American news source that supports Russia's stories I would be interested in seeing it.