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originally posted by: DJW001
originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien
On the contrary with US funds, they are proved.
Really? Please provide one jot of evidence that does not reference the Nuland speech. You can't, can you? Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true. Incidentally, your entire post is an off topic ad hom. I can't believe the Mods are letting you two get away with this childish behavior.
Why not answer my questions ?
Not only are they off topic, they are questions you need to ask yourself.
When you guys are claiming we don`t give proof, but we gave it constantly...
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien
When you guys are claiming we don`t give proof, but we gave it constantly...
Stop deflecting: I just asked you for your "proof" of "United States funds" that does not involve the speech by Nuland. You refuse to, because you cannot. Instead, you try to drag to thread further off topic with personal insults. When I was challenged to provide evidence that the Crimean election was rigged, all I had to do was post a copy of the ballot, yet you refuse to accept the reality of it. Do you really think that an objective reader cannot tell what is really going on here?
Straight from the horse her mouth isn`t proof anymore...?
How is that ballot giving any proof it was rigged ?
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien
Straight from the horse her mouth isn`t proof anymore...?
Are you saying that Nuland never lies? In that case, that five billion was only used on things that benefited Ukraine, right?
How is that ballot giving any proof it was rigged ?
Because it proves that the Crimeans could not vote in favor of genuine independence. It couldn't be more rigged than that. (Never mind the alleged leak of the real polling results.)
Now stop projecting your own deceptive practices onto others, please.
Ya see!?! This is what I have been getting when ever I ask for serious evidence...worthless bits of text and image, none of which can be corroborated, or checked in any way...absolutely worthless.
Those things needs to come from both sides, so lets make a deal, we both stop doing it and start discussing facts from now on ?
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien
Those things needs to come from both sides, so lets make a deal, we both stop doing it and start discussing facts from now on ?
I have been discussing facts, and you have been evading them. You have no source for "US funds" other than a speech that has been taken out of context and used for propaganda purposes. Elsewhere, I have linked to a site that accounts for how United States government money is used, and pointed out that Nuland's figure probably also includes money spent by the private sector on infrastructure development and energy exploration. What has Putin ever done for the Ukrainian people?
- Putin has send aid and is going to do it again
- Putin has searched for a peaceful solution in the Ukraine from the beginning
- Putin saved the people of Crimea from a fascist goverment
- "energy exploration," I`m not even going to comment on that
- Russia Gives Ukraine Financial Lifeline Amid Protests
Putin said the countries agreed that Moscow would buy $15 billion of Ukrainian government bonds, the Associated Press reports. Russia will also sharply reduce — by 33% — the price of natural-gas exports to the country, providing a lifeline to the government of President Viktor Yanukovych.
But the deal threatens to enrage protesters who have been in the streets since last month, when Yanukovych pulled out of talks with the E.U. in favor of strengthening ties with neighboring Russia. The upheaval in Ukraine — reminiscent of the Orange Revolution nearly a decade ago — has pitched pro-E.U. factions against Yanukovych, whom they accuse of sticking to Soviet-era corruption practices and looking out only for his own political well-being.
- US accounts on how money is spend...?
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418
Ya see!?! This is what I have been getting when ever I ask for serious evidence...worthless bits of text and image, none of which can be corroborated, or checked in any way...absolutely worthless.
www.unian.ua...
Actual research 1, lazy rhetoric 0.
originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien
When you guys are claiming we don`t give proof, but we gave it constantly...
Stop deflecting: I just asked you for your "proof" of "United States funds" that does not involve the speech by Nuland. You refuse to, because you cannot. Instead, you try to drag to thread further off topic with personal insults. When I was challenged to provide evidence that the Crimean election was rigged, all I had to do was post a copy of the ballot, yet you refuse to accept the reality of it. Do you really think that an objective reader cannot tell what is really going on here?
Straight from the horse her mouth isn`t proof anymore...?
How is that ballot giving any proof it was rigged ?
And it`s safe to say, you are not going to answer my questions, as you did before...see the difference between you and me, I actually respond to your questions.
seriously though, thanks; while this can only increase the confidence level of your position by single digits, it is still better than not at all. So FRVO, for almost doing what you should have done all along! Would have been nice to use a image with an appropriate caption though...easer to identify.
I'm finding your data analysis to be seriously "wanting"...you do not use enough corroborated data, and it appears that ALL of your data is from virtually a single source.
originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: tanka418
Ya see!?! This is what I have been getting when ever I ask for serious evidence...worthless bits of text and image, none of which can be corroborated, or checked in any way...absolutely worthless.
Here you go that worthless text you think was posted is discussed here and translated...enjoy.
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26514797#ns-panel__section-2
I'm not sure the argument that there are only two possibilities here is valid. While I suppose, from my position of ignorance of Crimean affairs, it might seem that a third, "complete independence", option would be a good thing...more complete / fair.[
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418
I naturally assumed that anyone swallowing Russian propaganda would naturally be able to read Russian. Apparently, you are simply not well informed. The talking, or perhaps I should say "shouting" points that the three principle pro-Russian contributors to this thread keep raising have been addressed by myself and others countless times on other threads. Since they have raised no new points, I have not bothered to repeat posting links to support my own position. Please note how the pro-Russians hurl personal accusations, but seldom support their arguments themselves.
You must have me confused with someone else. All of the pro-Russian claims, however diverse the blogs they actually link to, ultimately hang on the following:
1. A youtube video of a tape recording of an alleged conversation between Baltic diplomats discussing a rumor that Right Wing snipers were shooting at Maidan protesters.
2. Another unverified tape recording of an alleged conversation between a Ukrainian oligarch and a member of a Right Wing militia.
3. Videos of the Trade House fire that have been edited to leave out the Russian snipers and the Ukrainian rescue attempts.
4. An out of context speech by an American official trying to impress Ukrainian lobbyists.
5. Yet another tape recording of two American diplomats discussing what they would like to see happen after the protests were over. It did not happen the way they wanted, but propagandists continue to use this "evidence."
6. A CGI animation allegedly showing a Russian radar tracking Ukrainian planes performing above their known capability.
7. Various staged videos.
Now Bassago is trying to get you to believe that the Council on Foreign Relations has officially proclaimed that the Russian invasion of Crimea and civil unrest in the East are all the West's fault. Can you imagine the chutzpah?
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418
I'm not sure the argument that there are only two possibilities here is valid. While I suppose, from my position of ignorance of Crimean affairs, it might seem that a third, "complete independence", option would be a good thing...more complete / fair.[
Independence would have been a great thing for Crimea; they had a booming tourist industry, a vital port, they could charge Russia for use of its naval bases and there is probably off-shore gas to be exploited. An independent Crimea with continued good relations with Ukraine would be happy and prosperous. That is why Russia did not put the option on the ballot.
The fact that alternate news sources (not western) seem to corroborate the opposition (Russian news sources) is also rather significant, and unfortunately does great damage to your position. The fact that Western news sources have been proven, not just wrong, but actually lying, also seriously damages or position.