CFR: Ukraine Crisis, It's the Wests Fault

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Prove it. Step by step with sources.

You guys keep stating it but never support it. Bear in mind the moment you invoke the phone call released on youtube then you must accept the youtube footage of discussion between rebels on shooting down MH17 as well as the Russian cooperation int hat action.

Dude! From what I've seen here; you are the one making claims without any visible support! The "pro-west" crowd has been this way all along...lots of talk and virtually no real evidence.

All I gots ta say is: "Pics or it didn't happen!" (metaphorically speaking of course)

a reply to: tanka418

Excuse me...but; Crimea seceded from the Ukraine. They were already an autonomous state, and that was their right. They held an election, the idea passed, apparently by a large margin.

Because there were armed Russian troops in the street. Putin will never live the stain of his ham-fisted rigged election down. Even Russian history books will call it "the worst strategic mistake since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan."

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

Excuse me...but; Crimea seceded from the Ukraine. They were already an autonomous state, and that was their right. They held an election, the idea passed, apparently by a large margin.

Because there were armed Russian troops in the street. Putin will never live the stain of his ham-fisted rigged election down. Even Russian history books will call it "the worst strategic mistake since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan."

You have absolutely no evidence that election was "rigged"...save perhaps your sour grapes. Yes, there were Russian Military from the Navy base, who helped secure the region...do you know the real circumstance of their deployment? I bet not!

a reply to: Xcathdra

OK let me see if I can sum up your position:

1. Russia caused all the problems.
2. Yanukovych is locked away in a Russian basement somewhere.
3. US/EU offered Ukraine options.
4. Russia offered Ukraine options (which Yanukovych actually chose.)
5. Yanukovych is driven out of the country. (OK I added that.)
6. Yanukovych was elected under a closely watched election.
7. People who doubt the MSM talking points are stupid and can't think.
8. No US officials (State or CIA) or NGO did anything bad.

OKaay. Well it's obvious we will never agree on this so I'll tell you what. We'll just have to disagree. And Nuland can keep plotting and Hunter Biden can keep trying to plunder the shale gas. Oh yes and the IMF can pay off the new strongman and impose more debt slavery on the regular people as long as he brings east Ukraine to heel, ie kill them all if they don't do what the west wants.

Whatever.

a reply to: tanka418

You have absolutely no evidence that election was "rigged"...save perhaps your sour grapes. Yes, there were Russian Military from the Navy base, who helped secure the region...do you know the real circumstance of their deployment? I bet not!

Ignoring the well known fact that the ballot did not provide an option for Crimea to be totally independent from both Ukraine and Russia, I will proceed to ask you: "What were the circumstances of the deployment of the "green men," whom Putin denied were Russian, although you now seem to acknowledge as Russian Marines?" Please provide a scan of their orders, I'd love to see it.

originally posted by: Plugin
a reply to: Xcathdra
Their was a clear agenda that the west (mainly the US?) which did the FIRST ACTION; to replace the government, with los of propaganda telling the people how bad/corrupt Viktor Yanukovych was. Maybe Putin shouldn't done anything as a RESPONSE but it's in their backyard and Crimea is just important for Russia and they just made sure they kept control over that part (without firing 1 bullet!).

The Ukraine mass protests on Maidan could not have been organized from above - this was plain for people who regularly read what the ydemanded, saw youtube casts on video and has some basic grasp of Ukrainian and/or Russian.
This is a hallucination of some people in the West. You can stage a "coup" in a presidential palace in South America. Yanukovich started firing at people - this was the end. He could have simply said, "Look guys, I'm sorry, I'm an elected president so I need to execute the obvious will of the people - obviously you guys want this formal agreement to be signed with the EU even if I will anger Putin and lose some money. Sorry, it was my mistake. I am not a king, but an elected democratic official." Or he could have stepped down.

Only people who have never seen footages and understand either Russian or Ukrainian could say that. Or, fanatics and shills would say anything.
In Eastern Europe you need a lot to go to protests especially for several months in a row, violence not started by protesters, the contents of the spontaneous speeches and songs.. That maybe one or two movements marginal in numbers accepted some backing is probabyl true but was never substantiated.

If that was true, surely Saddam did 911... why not. And Elvis lives in Japan.

originally posted by: DJW001

although you now seem to acknowledge as Russian Marines?" Please provide a scan of their orders, I'd love to see it.

I didn't say Marines...

We both know there is no "scan" of their orders. However since we are on the minor subject of evidence, I'd love to see yours, along with all of the support, and corroborating evidence as well.

Seriously, man, I'd love to see it...it might help to restore confidence in the western media. Cause right now its at an all time low. With all the BS the MSM has been throwing. None of their stories make any sense; yet it kind of amazing that the Russian and Greek media seem to actually make some logical sense out of it, and of course the article we are discussing here.

So, IF you can restore this confidence perhaps we can arrive at some mutual agreement. Other wise I shall simply have to apply it as I see it; with a confidence level so low that virtually anything at all will upset the probabilities, and do far more than simply negate what the western news has said.

You need to understand something about me here: it's all in the numbers.

a reply to: DJW001

Crimea is an after the fact issue after Yanukovych was driven out of the country. The same Yanukovych who was democratically elected in a well monitored election. Obviously the west could wait for the real upcoming elections and forced him out. US/EU seem to only believe in "democracy" when it suits them. Otherwise another war always seems to get started.

Now the Crimea issue is real in a legalistic way I suppose but the fact is that's a done deal and it's doubtful it's ever coming back. What would be your solution there, have Ukraine invade it if they ever manage to take the east which is looking ever more doubtful. Perhaps have NATO come into Ukraine and attack Russia? I don't see that going well either.

Please provide a scan of their orders, I'd love to see it.

Maybe you'll get those as soon as we hear/see the ATC recordings and blackbox data. Oh wait, like that's ever going to happen. Again more coverup from the west because you could bet the farm if there was anything in those we'd be publishing it far and wide.

And where are all these US/NATO military satellite photos that could show us all the tons of Russian tanks and stuff crossing the border into Ukraine. I'd have thought they want us to see them. Not those crummy 3rd party commercial photos, the real stuff.

a reply to: tanka418

We both know there is no "scan" of their orders. However since we are on the minor subject of evidence, I'd love to see yours, along with all of the support, and corroborating evidence as well.

Of course. Here is scan of the bogus ballot. I hope you understand why I assume you read Russian:

a reply to: DJW001

Of course. Here is scan of the bogus ballot. I hope you understand why I assume you read Russian

What's your point? That there were two options and you feel there should have been three or four. Maybe they should have got to vote on becoming the 51st state. I'm sure uncle Joe and his plundering son would have agreed.

As said before Crimea is an event that took place after the main points of the OP. Your scan is irrelevant to the issue.

Edit - I don't read Russian or Ukrainian so this could be a take out menu from Applebee's for all I know. Just figure it was Crimea as that's what you seem hung up on.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

We both know there is no "scan" of their orders. However since we are on the minor subject of evidence, I'd love to see yours, along with all of the support, and corroborating evidence as well.

Of course. Here is scan of the bogus ballot. I hope you understand why I assume you read Russian:

Ya see!?! This is what I have been getting when ever I ask for serious evidence...worthless bits of text and image, none of which can be corroborated, or checked in any way...absolutely worthless.

And you expect people to accept your version; why??!? S far on the evidence score: west 0, east 1+...basically, you have o argument.

a reply to: Bassago

Its an example of the ballot used in the illegal elections in crimea where the only 2 options were to join Russia. If you are going to talk about this subject you really should do more research and educate yourself. It will allow us to avoid having these same conversations over and over and over, pro Russian making claims, us debunking those claims with evidence and facts, pro Russians ignoring them because it does not support their agenda.


Russia's economy just hit the wall, with their expected economic outlook for the remainder of the year to be negative.

To keep it on topic - Your op has been debunked.

What would you like to discuss now?

a reply to: Xcathdra

If you are going to talk about this subject you really should do more research and educate yourself.

Ah that's your nice way of being insulting. Or are you simply someone who must always get in the last word. Give me a break your responses are becoming increasingly irrelevant to the topic.

It will allow us to avoid having these same conversations over and over and over, pro Russian making claims, us debunking those claims with evidence and facts, pro Russians ignoring them because it does not support their agenda.

Because I don't read Russian? Didn't need to as it was obvious what it was by the consistent irrelevant droning on about it. This was not even part of the topic.

Russia's economy just hit the wall, with their expected economic outlook for the remainder of the year to be negative.

What on earth does that have to do with anything? As you're really having difficulty I'll say to you again, keep it on topic please or is your sole purpose simply to make this thread go away. Somebody not liking it? Maybe took offense?

Your op has been debunked.

What would you like to discuss now?

Nope it hasn't. I know you believe that in your head but it's not reality.

Maybe we can talk about the money that went into ousting Yanukovych from office. Maybe some NGO's to start. Listening to Nuland dodge congressional questions about US funding in Ukraine was giving me a headache. Or maybe the promise of IMF loans with the usual austerity strings attached. Or why the EU want's Ukraine so badly in the first place.

a reply to: tanka418

Ya see!?! This is what I have been getting when ever I ask for serious evidence...worthless bits of text and image, none of which can be corroborated, or checked in any way...absolutely worthless.

Here you go that worthless text you think was posted is discussed here and translated...enjoy.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26514797#ns-panel__section-2

a reply to: Bassago

Maybe we can talk about the money that went into ousting Yanukovych from office.

SO you mean the five billion they sent over a span of ten years, now were they just hording that money waiting for the right pro Russian president to use it, because that is what you seem to be implying?

Now let's discuss where the money Yanukovich stole from the citizens of Ukraine went which btw was a big factor in why they protested and wanted him to be impeached...Oh btw his own parliament decided to do that not the US.

So want to talk about that money or are you just going to steer clear of his corruption and his backdoor dealings with Russia?

Why do the Russian supporters constantly want to discuss the money the US gives to them over a decade, but won't discuss the billions that seem to disappear when Yanukovich was in office?

Still waiting for someone to explain where the Council on Foreign Relations fits into this; after all, the headline is in the classic journalistic inverted pyramid format, making the CFR the topic of this thread.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Bassago

Maybe we can talk about the money that went into ousting Yanukovych from office.

SO you mean the five billion they sent over a span of ten years, now were they just hording that money waiting for the right pro Russian president to use it, because that is what you seem to be implying?

Now let's discuss where the money Yanukovich stole from the citizens of Ukraine went which btw was a big factor in why they protested and wanted him to be impeached...Oh btw his own parliament decided to do that not the US.

So want to talk about that money or are you just going to steer clear of his corruption and his backdoor dealings with Russia?

Why do the Russian supporters constantly want to discuss the money the US gives to them over a decade, but won't discuss the billions that seem to disappear when Yanukovich was in office?

Because of the "seem," lots of accusations but no real proof.

On the contrary with US funds, they are proved.

Why do you guys keep trying to avoid discussing the actual facts, because you can`t debunk them...?

And what about twisting the facts, what`s up with that ?

The proof of the stuff we have been saying can be found in the Ukraine topics, stating we don`t gave them is just a load of BS. And don`t start asking for it again, just read the topics, and this time with a working brain.

You guys have become increasingly desperate with your fallacies about the whole situation in the Ukraine, till the point where you can`t have an actual argument with you guys anymore. All you guys do is regurgitate all the wild accusations done by Kiev and The West...and doing it over and over again doesn`t make them true.

Somehow you guys have convinced yourselves it`s actual working...

Warning, the following can be extremely sobering :

It`s not working !

Looking at the comment section at the Dutch News sites, there aren`t many who are buying it !

So all you guys do is "bringing sand to the beach."

That`s why I have 2 questions for you guys :

1) Do you really think you can alter reality by constantly twisting facts ?

2) Are you guys really oblivious to the fact it doesn`t work what you guys are doing ?

And don`t worry, I don`t have high hopes of getting sensible answers this time because of lack of them in earlier occasions.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

On the contrary with US funds, they are proved.

Really? Please provide one jot of evidence that does not reference the Nuland speech. You can't, can you? Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true. Incidentally, your entire post is an off topic ad hom. I can't believe the Mods are letting you two get away with this childish behavior.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

On the contrary with US funds, they are proved.

Really? Please provide one jot of evidence that does not reference the Nuland speech. You can't, can you? Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true. Incidentally, your entire post is an off topic ad hom. I can't believe the Mods are letting you two get away with this childish behavior.

Why not answer my questions ?

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

On the contrary with US funds, they are proved.

Really? Please provide one jot of evidence that does not reference the Nuland speech. You can't, can you? Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true. Incidentally, your entire post is an off topic ad hom. I can't believe the Mods are letting you two get away with this childish behavior.

Why not answer my questions ?

Not only are they off topic, they are questions you need to ask yourself.