"Right to Refuse Service" but not to Gays?

originally posted by: Aural
Thats still considered Bisexual, Chester. Bisexual doesn't mean you're going to enter a polygamous marriage. Although I do think its possible for a persons sexuality to change to some degree through various reasons but its not commonly a choice. Heck you cant even choose what food you like and don't like. There are various biological differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals.

a reply to: beezzer

That is not discrimination. An object does not have rights. A person does. That's no different than saying its discrimination that people are not allowed to smoke in fire work shops or near gas tanks. The cigarette is the object. Does it mean smokers cant be there? No it means you cant smoke there. So bringing a gun somewhere can be forbidden but it doesnt mean gun owners are not allowed.

NO, its part of a philosophical and political belief system, like religion. It makes no sense that I have to accommodate someone's imaginary man in the sky, but not a civil right that is guaranteed by the Constitution.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Navydoc, I know we have a standard non-interaction pact, but I want to ask you one question, and I won't respond to your answer at all:

As a medical professional, do you believe that sexual orientation is the result of a constellation of organic and societal factors or is it simply a personal choice?

EDIT Bold text added in edit at 5:39 PM.

Like anything in life, the answer is usually multifactorial, involves multiple issues, and not every answer can describe every person.

Why do you ask?

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: SearchLightsInc
Does it say anything about human society that we are still debating our rights to discriminate against others based on the fact that we dont like/accept who they are?

Anyone who is retarded enough to refuse service based on your skin colour, sexual orientation and gender shouldn't own a business in the first place, you're clearly in it for the wrong reasons.

That is NOT the point! It doesn't matter the reason....My point is if you own it, who is anyone to tell you who you can't serve? The right or wrong reasons excluded...

The reason is simply this:
No Blacks.
No Dogs.
No Irish.

There are to many stupid and bigoted people in the world, the majority cannot trust the few A**hole business owner's to conduct themselves in a respectful and and meaningful manner.

We've had societies where business have been able to refuse service for whatever reason. It didnt work out. That's why laws were passed.

Did you know that after Muhammed Ali won the olympic gold he was given key to his city and STILL refused service at a restaurant because he was black???

Although in itself it's actually shocking, the quote that always makes me laugh was when a fast food place told Mohammed Ali that they didn't serve blacks and he responding by saying that ok, he didn't want one, all he wanted was a burger.

Isn't this the same discrimination that everyone fought against last century? Refusing someone because of their skin, their religion, or their sex preference is wrong! If you choose to open a business, you choose to accept regulations pertaining to your industry. On the other hand, A lesbian or a latino cannot choose who they are, yet you want to punish them by denying their right of equality. So i assume you think the business has the right to discriminate in their hiring of employees? or an apartment manager has the right to refuse minorities?

Thomas Jefferson summed it up well:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Thomas Jefferson

It's been my experience that most people who would deny another person in this manner are white supremacists. Even if that is not the case with anyone here, it is easy to see that you think you are better then some group of people (supreme) and you should be able to treat them how you please.

originally posted by: lonweld
Isn't this the same discrimination that everyone fought against last century? Refusing someone because of their skin, their religion, or their sex preference is wrong! If you choose to open a business, you choose to accept regulations pertaining to your industry. On the other hand, A lesbian or a latino cannot choose who they are, yet you want to punish them by denying their right of equality. So i assume you think the business has the right to discriminate in their hiring of employees? or an apartment manager has the right to refuse minorities?

Thomas Jefferson summed it up well:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Thomas Jefferson

It's been my experience that most people who would deny another person in this manner are white supremacists. Even if that is not the case with anyone here, it is easy to see that you think you are better then some group of people (supreme) and you should be able to treat them how you please.

And where did Jefferson say that the state has the duty and obligation to force people to engage in commerce against their will? One thing to ensure that all citizens have access to the law and to state run and subsidized facilities like the hospital and the DMV and the courts and the police station and the voting booth vs forcing a private individual to bake cakes for an even he does not agree with. Why should one's person's rights trump another's?

a reply to: NavyDoc

You've never been discriminated against I take it. For people who have never been told "you can't come in here because...", it's really easy to say "so what, I will just shop somewhere else!" But it is a whole different matter for those who have been turned away. Try walking a mile in our shoes, then perhaps you would have a different opinion.

Here is an interesting study I found a while back. It's from Stanford, and it tries to explain exactly why discrimination is wrong- though I doubt you or anyone else will bother reading it.

plato.stanford.edu...

originally posted by: lonweld
a reply to: NavyDoc

You've never been discriminated against I take it. For people who have never been told "you can't come in here because...", it's really easy to say "so what, I will just shop somewhere else!" But it is a whole different matter for those who have been turned away. Try walking a mile in our shoes, then perhaps you would have a different opinion.

Here is an interesting study I found a while back. It's from Stanford, and it tries to explain exactly why discrimination is wrong- though I doubt you or anyone else will bother reading it.

plato.stanford.edu...

Oh, I have, on more than one occasion--you assume incorrectly.

Discrimination is wrong and ignorant. The question is, do we need to use the coercive power of the state to force good behavior on people? Just as we, in a free society, tolerate some awful things said in the name of freedom of speech, we have to tolerate some bigotry in the name of freedom of association.

Would you have the government restrict free speech in the name of stamping out bigotry?

originally posted by: lonweld
Isn't this the same discrimination that everyone fought against last century? Refusing someone because of their skin, their religion, or their sex preference is wrong! If you choose to open a business, you choose to accept regulations pertaining to your industry. On the other hand, A lesbian or a latino cannot choose who they are, yet you want to punish them by denying their right of equality. So i assume you think the business has the right to discriminate in their hiring of employees? or an apartment manager has the right to refuse minorities?

Thomas Jefferson summed it up well:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Thomas Jefferson

It's been my experience that most people who would deny another person in this manner are white supremacists. Even if that is not the case with anyone here, it is easy to see that you think you are better then some group of people (supreme) and you should be able to treat them how you please.

And to address your last bit: no, your assumption is incorrect. I've seen bigotry and refusal of service from all races and creeds. A Korean store owner in LA might kick the black kids out of his store, a white guy going into a club in Compton will be brusquely asked to leave.

Prejudice is not only owned by one group.

It's funny and disgusting the level of 'victim mentality' that people show.

When I've refused service or had a client go elsewhere, do you know what's been the ONLY deciding factor?

If they were overly difficult, a jerk, abusive, and things of that sort.

You know why? Because my time should be spent helping others who appreciate it.

I've never cared what color someone was, what their sexual preferences were, religious beliefs were, or what political views they had. I simply don't care about any of it, and I don't understand people who claim they were refused for being 'x,y,z' or whatever. A good customer is a good customer.

Now I have come across a few (3 in 20 years) who had tried to make a claim of 'it's because' - and that's where I've stopped them and let them know exactly why I refused to do or continue business with them. My response has been (not exact, word for word, but the last one happened about 2 years ago, was handled about like this):

"I can't understand why you'd feel that way. The direction our communication and business dealings were headed, apparently was less than satisfying for either of us. Regardless of what other 'reasons' you may want to inject into your justification for being upset, has absolutely no merit whatsoever. The fact that you've taken it to that level, to me, speaks volumes and only reaffirms I've made the decision that's right for me. Honestly, Mr./Mrs. x,y or z, the business relationship has clearly and simply become counterproductive and it's not a profitable or productive standpoint for you, your business or mine. I'm inviting you to leave, find a place that's more inline with your style of doing business and wish you well in your future endeavors. I however, am done with this conversation, done with my dealings with you/your company and am more than happy to help move the project to whichever company you choose. Lastly, for future business dealings, I would strongly suggest you keep it professional and personal matters that have no place in business, exactly what they should be, personal. *opens door* - have a nice day."

The person was fuming, you could tell they wanted a rise out of me, and I simply wouldn't give it. Calls at all hours, nasty messages, the client rarely following up, paying late, constant name calling - I was done. 5 months of less than pleasantness, and the money simply wasn't worth it anymore. I'd had one person quit over this client.

[Start rant]

Having seen how this mentality has almost become a 'crutch' and excuse for people to act sub-human or as nasty as they want to be, all because they can waive the 'hey, I'm x,y,z and you did this because of that' bullsh**t is nearing levels of insanity.

May we as a planet, be able to pull one another s heads from our 'southern extremities' and re-introduce ourselves as people, human beings that want to welcome our fellow men and woman into our lives and businesses. The zombie Apocalypse may not have come in the form of decaying bodied creatures, but instead may have arrived as 'victim mentality', the attitude of 'political correctness' and the ass-backwards notion that the Gov't is here to fix all our insecurities with ourselves, make all things perfect, when it itself has proven that it cannot wipe it's own arse. Kids, think about this: for years you thought your parents were horrible, out to get you, steal your fun and 'tell you what to do'. Now move to the present and look at what idiocy is being voted for: The very same things you were super upset with your parents over (who knows, maybe you still are to this day), you are now granting the Gov't to preside over and control. What you can do, say, own, use, what you must pay higher taxes because they aren't responsible. Your parents were in your corner the entire time, and you turned your back on them, only to give it to an entity who only isn't in your corner, but they steal from you on a daily basis, and I'm not just talking about money.

Schools need to stop teaching people what to think, and instead teach people HOW to think.

[Rant over]

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: SearchLightsInc
yes but if all the non-bigoted people would see that "no whatever sign" and read a "no not me" sign I bet the signs would soon go away! as far as I am concerned if you don't want the gays or the blacks or whatever you probably don't want me either because I'll just tell you to your face what I think about your sign!

And you SHOULD!

Now take that same logic and apply it to a government agency that is run by people you disagree with and giving them the right to hold a gun or threat of fine/prison over you if you don't conduct business THEIR way. Government is not a static entity... it sways in whatever way it feels it can get away with and when the general attitude of the population changes... those who were most dependent on punishing people to behave the way they think is right find themselves on the opposite end of a VERY dangerous beast.

So many people have been literally brainwashed into believing that the solution to social problems is government. Hey... let me ask (the general) you something. How has that dependency on the government been working out for the black community so far? Oh look... ever MORE dependency. Want to know why? Because a lot of people's government jobs and corporate kickbacks depend on there being an ever growing and ever more dependent population. The programs are designed to provide significant disincentive from ever getting out.

If someone really can't see the way we're being manipulated and how things are being primed specifically to swing the pendulum back to handing to the fundies these fancy powers and armed departments of people well trained in following orders... then I don't know what to say. One group is being demonized and another being coddled so that the coddled have no idea how to exist or defend themselves without government doing it for them. The demonized are being pressed so they can be unleashed and drunk with power that has been used against them. All in the name of destabilizing us from within.

Empathy is not developed at the point of a gun. Revenge is.

Empathy is developed by watching the effect certain behavior has on people and being told by brave people that they think certain behavior is not acceptable while demonstrating themselves a different way.

reply to: Aural

I've never had the gift of brevity but yes, that's the lions share of my argument. I don't mean to soft pedal the other part- the need to respect the basic right of others to exist- but I've never found that argument effective when it conflicts with someone's interpretation of a book written by a stoneage shepherd who breathed too deeply in proximity to a burning bush

a reply to: GetOutOfMyLight

I find it kind of hard to answer your question since I fail to see where gov't policies are harming one race more than the other. are you assuming that most blacks are on the gov't dole while whites typically aren't? For some reason when I read statements like yours that is the impression I always get.
Only I've met some very successful blacks and also some very non-motivated white people! And at the present time there are some who have worked hard for decades now finding themselves having to rely on those gov't programs.
Although such programs are often designed with good intentions in mind, it never takes very much time for some to anyalyze the rules of the game and come up with a way to exploit them and when you have enough money to buy off the congressmen well you can even have them write more rules to make it even easier and more profitable!

Report: After WH Meets with Big Biz, Obama May Use Exec Actions to Increase Guest-Worker Visas

This may come on top of Obama's potential grants of amnesty and work permits to millions of illegal immigrants in the country. While outside groups are urging Obama to "go big," Senate Democrats have expressed some concerns of late, as poll numbers have shown that executive amnesty may cost them control of the Senate. The White House is reportedly reaching out to big-business groups on guest-worker visas so they can give Obama air cover on his potential executive amnesty.

According to a Politico report, senior White House aides earlier this month met with "more than a dozen business groups and company officials to discuss potential immigration policy changes they could make." According to the outlet, "Oracle, Cisco, Fwd.US, Microsoft, Accenture, Compete America, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce" were represented at the meeting.

and futher down the article..

Cisco recently slashed another 6,000 jobs after pushing for amnesty legislation. Microsoft announced it would lay off 18,000 American workers a week after its former CEO Bill Gates called for an unlimited number of certain guest-worker visas in a New York Times op-ed. And the Chamber of Commerce has vowed to spend $50 million for amnesty legislation and more guest-worker visas.

then if you read in the comments some:

ThroneOfBlood camp50 • 2 days ago The problem is that the TwoFace-book Zuckerbergs of the world are willing to have all 30 million illegals amnestied in order to keep the H1B guest worker gravy train going. The H1B's are a great racket, you pay sup par below American standard wages and if they indentured servants complain you have them sent home. 193 • Reply • Share › Avatar andrewwhitehead ThroneOfBlood • a day ago I worked in an Adult Community as a Security Officer. The owners brought in Filipino nurses, had them trained by the American staff, then fired all the Americans except for the Charge Nurses for shifts. Why? Filipino nurses work for a third of the wages and get zero benefits. And if the Filipino nurses complain? One call to immigration and they are on the next plane back to the Philippines. Big business loves these indentured servants. They can't move to another company, complain about working conditions or pay and you can throw them away at anytime.

source for these quotes come from:
www.breitbart.com...

me thinks that the desire for higher corp profits and their ability to bribe congress into doing their bidding has more to do with it!

And well, I'm sorry but if you want the people not to be dependent on the gov't there needs to be a pathway to independence not more corp profits!

And I have come to the conclusion that there is very little empathy for anyone in the US anymore...
Many of those who are now griping about the lack of jobs and such were demonizing those who were telling them this was down the road a few years ago. Things were going great for them and they couldn't figure out why it wasn't going great for everyone! Those who were griping were just lazy, made bad decisions, or whatever! Even those things that have enabled the police state to take root were put in during the bush era and supported by many. If you don't have anything to hide well why worry about it right??

If you want to know where I think we screwed up it was quite awhile ago. Men joined together and broke the shackles of the Roman Catholic Church and their priest, they broke away from the kings power, the replaced them with gov'ts that were for the people, by the people, they freed themselves or at least many of them did! Then the end of slavery came and the civil rights movement gave the former slaves their rights... and then they quite!
When it came to women and the ERA they just couldn't bring themselves to do that one! Instead they pacified the women with all that coddling that you seem to blaming everything on.
With God's help men had regained their freedom.. But God will judge us as we judge the least amoung us.. Man couldn't bring themselves to give women the same rights he enjoyed and well now he is losing his also through the same system that he designed to compensate for the fact that she didn't have those rights!

Empathy is developed by watching the effect certain behavior has on people and being told by brave people that they think certain behavior is not acceptable while demonstrating themselves a different way.

The biggest reason why I don't work anymore is that it is just too painful! I can't justify working a job that doesn't even pay enough for the medical care that I would need to continue working. I am out of the workforce now. My one consolation is that I am no longer adding to the pot with my sweat and blood. The gov't is no longer using my money to destroy me. But I have been very open on these boards as to what was going on in my life, and did a pretty good analysis of what I saw going on for over decade! I got very little empathy with lots of condemnations and judgements!
The only thing that has changed the hearts of the people was when they found themselves in bad situations themselves and started evaluating the situation also.
Maybe you have to endure something yourself before you can find empathy I don't know.
But you can't pass a law that ends discrimination. Those who wish to discriminate for whatever reason will always find a way of hide the fact that it is discrimination.

You have the right to refuse service is someone is harming or disrupting your business or is violating your establishments non-discriminatory rules or is doing something that causes the business to be in violation of state or federal law.

You cannot refuse service based on discrimination if your business in the public.

A public business owned by gays cannot refuse service to straight people, that's discrimination.
A public business owned by blacks cannot refuse service to whites, that's discrimination.
A public business owned by cats cannot refuse service to birds, that's discrimination.

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out why Public Accommodation laws exist or why they're necessary. Grocery stores owned by gays could decide they're going to starve out the hetero's, any business that serves food could be intimidated into complying. Boom genocide... er heterocide?

originally posted by: dawnstar
For some reason when I read statements like yours that is the impression I always get.

It would be very worthwhile for you to figure out why you get that impression... because it's not what is being described.

Government wants anybody it can get to come running to them because it means it owns them. Poor white? Poor black? Wealthy CEO? Gay? Straight? Female? Anybody that wants them to protect them.

Because then... over time... the system WILL say:
"We need you to do this other thing."
The dependents will say "But we don't want to."
The system will reply with "Then you no longer get this service/protection you depend on."

The system wants to *own* people by over time creating swaths of people who have no idea how to survive without them.

When I say "how has it worked out for the black community" I'm not ignoring all the white dependents. I'm speaking directly to those people in the black community who think the government is their friend... rather than their new master that they can no longer "argue with" because they believe they voted for them.

Obama was brought in after Bush not because the public attitude changed in his favor... but because he was the perfect contrast for all the blacks, Hispanics, non-Christians, etc. creating a leader that they would find it very difficult to hold accountable because they were SOLD a PRODUCT that they were convinced was "their guy". Bush was who he was specifically because it would open the door for Obama to follow up and get away with *far* more because of how impossible it would be for everyone who bought into him to accept that he's on the same team as Bush.

Good Cop/Bad Cop (or bad/good depending on your slant, heh).

And guess what is being primed? Look at the Tea Party. THINK about what will happen when someone on the same team with Bush/Obama (etc) comes walking in like a knight in shining armor promising all the middle class people (the majority remember) to finally save them from the "oppression" of welfare, excessive regulation, corrupt CEOs, etc.

Those on welfare will have no idea how to survive without it. Those who were only being treated nice because a law forced it rather than the social fabric learning to work together won't know how to interact with someone that doesn't agree with them when they no longer have the support of the guns. The CEOs who only got there because of first access to "free money" and no legal consequences if they fail.

WHAT event in history do we have very good records of that whipped up nationalistic fever against all the "degenerates" when the economic situation collapsed? What is happening in America? The economy is being crashed. Who are the ones being told government has their back while in fact keeping them more and more dependent despite being unable to fulfill their promises in the long run?

What portion of the population is being demonized? What portion of the population is watching as wealthier lower scoring in school people get full rides to college because of their race while the higher scoring working poor have to take out loans? What portion of the population who never discriminated against anyone personally is being told they don't get the job because a less qualified person does because of their race?

I'm warning/teaching the gays, the blacks, the welfare whites, etc. reading this about what's going to happen when their best friend... Government and Law is suddenly in the hands of a puppet who is selling a new product for a "new era of prosperity". Good god even with the shoddy education we all get in this country we were still told what to watch out for and here we are marching right into the same trap.

There are very very smart people operating far above national levels and the only thing that kept the US safe at all initially was there WAS NO MECHANISM for a tiny group of people to come in and flip a switch and blow up the whole thing at once while promising to save everyone from themselves. People were forced to work out their differences on a local and thus not universally destructive manner.

If the people who ensured Bush and Obama were elected want it... a Faux Christian White Hero wearing a smiling face will show up and get elected. And then the monster all the disenfranchised begged for will show its teeth and start eating.

But sure... keep thinking it's people like me who are the problem rather than those who put on a friendly face and will tell/promise the disenfranchised whatever they want (while stealing from the middle class to pay for it) so long as in the process they effectively get to *own* them and can use or destroy them simply by removing support.

All these feel good posts about "you don't have the right to..." are exactly that. Feel good posts that don't address the problem except to say "someone over there should fix it for us". It's like yelling at a computer to stop crashing because you don't like it crashing rather than getting in there and learning how to actually fix the computer.

The entity you are trying to use to solve the problem *benefits* from a problem existing. Think about it this way... those organizations lose their funding and power if the problem ever goes away and they get more funding and gain more power the more visible the problem appears.

Really?

Civil rights --- treat everyone equally is this complicated?

a reply to: Annee
Johnny and Jane have come to the conclusion that taking a couple "doses" of their own feces helps their immune system. Everyone in the town knows this about them but ignore them so long as they do it in their own home.

They walk into your restaurant and proceed to pop their "poop pills" in front of everyone. This really upsets some of your customers.

Johnny and Jane run to the government and exclaim "Why should someone be able to take a hydrocodone or vicodin pill that alters their entire personality... but we can't take our feces balls which doesn't change our behavior at all?"

The government comes along and says you must allow people to consume their own feces in your restaurant so long as they don't try to force anyone else to do it as well.

-------------

Jimmy was adopted by James and Jack as an infant. Jimmy grew up in the "gay" area of his town. Despite all the influences around him... Jimmy grew up liking girls and feeling uncomfortable if any male expressed interest in him, which was not uncommon even indirectly.

Unfortunately, Jimmy's parents aren't exactly wealthy. Thus he must attend community college nearby. Jimmy wants to workout but has to walk to the nearest gym. This gym is pretty much entirely patronized by gay members and is run by a gay owner. Jimmy feels *very* uncomfortable changing in the locker room.

Eventually Jimmy runs to city council and demands that the gym provide a "straights only" changing room and restroom.

The city council says that regardless of the cost, the gym must comply. The gym is barely making ends meet already. To do these modifications will cause them to start losing money, especially since the requirements are that the 1 straight person must have facilities equal in quality to everyone else.

Somehow they do manage to do the renovations. Suddenly many more straight people start attending the gym. The entire culture of the gym changes and the people who originally loved going there no longer feel at home.

Eventually nobody has a home and everyone is alienated.

And everyone is then easily conquered and eaten by the only mindset they never considered an enemy... the mindset that says...

"We're all equal... so long as Equal equals ME!"

Treat everyone equally? Before it even leaves your mouth you know that's a lie. If everyone were treated equally there would be nobody left but the strongest and the smartest... period. More than likely none of us would even exist as humans because there would be other beings that could/would wipe us out as easily as we do a single hornet's nest.

What you want... is to PRETEND that those who *aren't* equal... ARE.

Now that's not to say there isn't a legitimate and valuable reason to create opportunities for those who are "less capable" in a current environment to thrive in a different environment.

However... right now... on this planet... the most sociopathic and psychopathic people rise to the top specifically because they literally are *not equal*. They are capable of actions and behaviors most of us are not due to their mindset. They are not equal to us, and we are not equal to them. This has no bearing on "who is a better person"... simply on which hammer will smash the rock more effectively.

You want people to VOLUNTARILY TIE THEIR HANDS so that you can *feel* equal to them.

That has nothing to do with equality and in fact, in many ways, is the very definition of inequality.

So either start praying for some divine intervention to bind those who are "more equal" to you... or start learning to work with/around those who are far more capable due to their genetics, upbringing, situation, etc.

But don't sit here and pretend you want equal treatment just because you are being crushed the same as every white male not in their club is.

Equal treatment from a bully that can't be beat is everyone equally crying for mercy.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: SearchLightsInc
yes but if all the non-bigoted people would see that "no whatever sign" and read a "no not me" sign I bet the signs would soon go away! as far as I am concerned if you don't want the gays or the blacks or whatever you probably don't want me either because I'll just tell you to your face what I think about your sign!

eh? That's not my sign..

No Blacks
No Dogs
No Irish

was a sign that used to be used in the past before we had laws against discrimination. I was making a point.

a reply to: SearchLightsInc
They weren't disagreeing with you.

Yet you still felt the need to respond in a defensive manner.

Worth contemplating.

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight

What you want... is to PRETEND that those who *aren't* equal...

No, you're wrong.

Civil rights is simple.

I don't need paragraphs of lame excuses.